The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
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2275 "Allah chooseth from the angels messengers, and (also) from mankind. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Seer."
1794-95 And what prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them except that they said, "Has Allah sent a human messenger?"
Say, "If there were upon the earth angels walking securely, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel messenger...Now by above two verses anyone would understand that Malaika are a creature... By the tone of human in this verse they knew there is a creature other than human... Calling malaika a separate creature is also no harm... Coz while they are in that status we don't know what they are capable of doing with the permission of God and their privileges (for example shape shifting to human, so many vested powers that makes them unique from jinn and human) .. In Yousuf story those ladies called Yousuf.. He is not man but a malak.. Not coz he is attractive but coz no human cannot be like him but beyond human nature.
But the concern here is.. For brother Ayman Jinn is not living creature but fantasy of human...
You would have clearly understood by 1794-95 malaika are a creature... But for sure God created Men and Jinn only for testing..
But with the story of iblees throughout the Quran it is indicated by God that iblees was malak and degraded to mere jinn... But iblees while being a malak did not lie anything .. Whatever iblees told was true.. Iblees told while still being as malak and while being among other malaika that he was created by fire... He exposed what he was created being a malak.. So we can manifestly deduce that malaika are created by fire... And God confirms He created Jinn by fire..
Now.. God degrade all iblees's status of malak to mere jinn.. God never made another creature out of iblees but only deprived all what he was given as malak... So he became mere a jinn... For example.. If a prophet/messenger was deprived all his status to be mere human being or king is deprived all his kingship to be normal human being.. ..Isn't that clear that jinn is a creature other than human..
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"How he knows... This person is using Men of Jinn for his assistance.. That's what people say.. "
most people really looking for miracles and Jinns so they could see and get assistance from them.
In your case I think the real Jinn could be the friend assisting.long back people believed these Jinn and ghost stories for their unsolvable issues, now people give reasons for most but yet I see belief plays are positive role for many who could not find reasons.
Peace..
I don't want to shift this topic to another.. But that's what happened.. The one suggested to her has no connection with the one assisted.. After couple of days he went abroad...he just suggested while passing by hearing her plight.. -
There is truth and falsehood, which we can face in our life, some times we know what is what before hand, most times we dont know, If the truth the reality comes from God, the unreality or falsehood that we take from the entity I call Jinn.
In modern world there are so many falsehoods that spread, so many false claims, that attract people more than the reality,
I agree and like what Brother Ayman proposes, in a way our own fantasies makes us believe and fall for these falsehoods, in a way many people do not like the simple truth, instead go after the big falsehoods, like our television for TRP pushes up all the exaggerated lies to the people. And see how imaginary enemies and entities are being created now for example the ISIS, its not only the fault of those spreading these, but naivety of the people believing these and fall for these, instead of the simple real truth that will be hidden from them due to their misguidance. -
There is truth and falsehood, which we can face in our life, some times we know what is what before hand, most times we dont know, If the truth the reality comes from God, the unreality or falsehood that we take from the entity I call Jinn.
In modern world there are so many falsehoods that spread, so many false claims, that attract people more than the reality,
I agree and like what Brother Ayman proposes, in a way our own fantasies makes us believe and fall for these falsehoods, in a way many people do not like the simple truth, instead go after the big falsehoods, like our television for TRP pushes up all the exaggerated lies to the people. And see how imaginary enemies and entities are being created now for example the ISIS, its not only the fault of those spreading these, but naivety of the people believing these and fall for these, instead of the simple real truth that will be hidden from them due to their misguidance.Yes... Brother..
Let's keep this subject aside if possible or let us create another topic.. Coz we don't know the reality what happened.. But personal experiences as said by brother kawaja is personal experiences that no one will believe until they experience them..
Honestly I research... I used to watch the travel channel to grasp something about what those personal experience depict.. All those programs like ghost adventure, haunted towns.. Big foot.. Bla bla.. People have personal experiences which are abnormal unless they lie.. But we can't merely say they lie..
I also heard personal experiences of many people and friends that I don't want to share.. But we need to respect that coz we don't know what they are... -
Peace everyone,
Ayman your statements must be based on all the verses dealing with the subject. You only used a few of them, some short verses ( what about the above and the following ?)
In all occurences of "jin", can you replace this word with "fantasies" ? -
There is truth and falsehood, which we can face in our life, some times we know what is what before hand, most times we dont know, If the truth the reality comes from God, the unreality or falsehood that we take from the entity I call Jinn.
In modern world there are so many falsehoods that spread, so many false claims, that attract people more than the reality,
I agree and like what Brother Ayman proposes, in a way our own fantasies makes us believe and fall for these falsehoods, in a way many people do not like the simple truth, instead go after the big falsehoods, like our television for TRP pushes up all the exaggerated lies to the people. And see how imaginary enemies and entities are being created now for example the ISIS, its not only the fault of those spreading these, but naivety of the people believing these and fall for these, instead of the simple real truth that will be hidden from them due to their misguidance.I agree.
And I think that some people gives interpretations of what they experienced as strange with their belief. That why we found different interpretaions in different cultures or belief. And they are people who wnat to believe those interpretations without seeking the reason or just admit they can explain it to confort their belief.
The truth is that we don't know unless we have a proof. Admitting something asserted by other without investigating is not reasonning.
Sometimes we really want to accept something because it confort our belief.
Maybe we should open a topic about this. As Jkhan said "I don't want to shift this topic to another.."
(I know that Imran started to talk about personnal experience). -
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salam
regarding the jinn and angels to be of same creation, there is a verse that makes me actually think perhaps no (if anyone can help)
i forgot the verse number but it was when The God tells us He asks the angels if humans took them as allies to which the angels reply no humans took the jinn as allies
does that separate the creations into angels and jinn rather than angels being jinn that were given control or jinn being not achieving rank of angels?
Not quite as per what you described ...but maybe these are the verses that you are looking for?
And on the Day when We gather them all, then We will say to the malaikah/controllers “Was it you that these people used to serve?”
They will say “Be You glorified. You are our Master, not they". Nay, they were serving the Jinn; most were believers to them. -
salam ade
yup those are the verses (i was not sure if the exact word used was “allies” or “masters”)
can we assume jinn and angels are separate creations or the same?
there is also a verse if i remember correctly where The God tells us He does not take “assitants/helpers” from those who mislead ... and from my understanding those who mislead are the jinn whilst angels do not mislead
as such i believe perhaps both angles and jinn are made from fire but jinn disbelieved and mislead whilst angels believed.. but any thoughts are welcome
thank uuu
peace
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Dear All Peace..
Will Malaika go to Hell though they are Jinn by creation and created by Fire? No.. Coz they are not part of Testing… God created Men and Jin for testing and Not elite Malaika..
Anticipate at least by reading the below verse, those who up to now not understood would understand in sha allah…
4129 “ those who disbelieved will say, "Our Lord, show us those who misled us of the jinn and men we may put them under our feet that they will be among the lowest."
The above verse is the dialogue of those who are in Hell… what they request from God? They want to know who are those who misled them from MEN and JINN… the one who misled and the one got misled all in same boat.. If it is the FANTASY of human misled those in Hell, why they should beg to God to show those who misled them of MEN and JINN?... Further, how they can put those who misled them under their feet? How can they put the fantasy of their own under their feet so that it goes to the lowest? Doesn’t it manifestly indicate that MEN and JINN both in Hell going through to what they did in the past? Yes it is…
If one doesn’t not understand this clear verse, I wonder who would ever understand any verse..
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Agree
For you a group of Jinn were listening means a group of humans listening with their fantasies ?
I do not agreeIf you agree that there are allegorical verses then by definition allegories address the imagination. If I tell you "get off your high horse" and you take it with your mind literally it will not make any sense. You need to imagine someone sitting on a high horse and this gives him a sense of prestige and haughtiness and then you will get the allegorical meeting of being arrogant and haughty.
There is a word in Arabic to say imaginary khayal, the verb yukhayyalu appears only once in the story of Moses with the magicians.
Yes. The magicians work on the human imagination. They make believe by tricking your eye and letting your imagination do the rest. They don't really perform miracles .
Also, the term is actually used in several other passages and not only in 2066. It is used to denote haughtiness/arrogance is 436, 3118, and 5723. Of course, haughtiness/arrogance is a product of the human fantasy.
It is also used directly in relation to Iblis/"jinn" in 1764 ... and bring on them with your fantasies and your foot...
Yes, it's normal the human being is endowed with all the capacities to reason, invent and imagine.
Imagination comes first before invention. We first imagine flying machines and then when we make this fantasy submit to our reason with the truth in the laws of aerodynamics we invent airplanes. On the other hand, if our fantasy controls us then we would go crazy and jump from a high building thinking we could flap our arms and fly.
hearts, eyes, ears are not allegories in 7179.
7179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.I agree we can see without really seeing, listen without hearing when our mind is elsewhere / unaware, and read the reading without understanding it when the heart is veiled and our senses are sealed.
The veil here is an allegory same for they are like hoofed animals.
A deaf mute sees with his eyes and understands with the heart, ditto for the blind, he hears with his ears and understands with the heart.
Understanding is linked to the heart.
PeaceSo according to your physical interpretation someone who is physically blind and deaf is destined for hell!
Peace,
Ayman
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you say “ Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves.”
no one said that jinn are ghosts or red men with forks or reptilians etc or that angels have white robes and halos etc ... all we are saying is that jinn are creatures created by The God and definately not human fantasies (i do not even see the logic in “fantasies” lol) ...
it’s quite obvious throughout the Quran that jinn are a separate creature ... and my understanding is that jinn and angels are same creation, but jinn disbelieved whilst angels believed in The God (perhaps i am wrong)Where in the great reading it says that "jinn" and "angels" (whatever that means since the term angels is not even in the great reading) are the same creation? The great reading is clear that "malak" is just a status given by the god (see 336).
i think the Quran is literal ... and when examples are made, we are explicitly told that they are examples .. but everything is the truth and literal ... i believe no allegory or examples unless stated they are examples or allegories
So according to you there are no allegories in the great reading. This is very strange. So according to you when the great reading says in 1729 "do not make your hand tied to your neck" it means do not physically strangle yourself and not do not allegorically be stingy since we are not explicitly told this is an allegory.
Peace,
Ayman
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Whats about the personal experience of someone?
Example in my case many years ago i met a person who claimed to have jinn who tell him things and first time he saw me and told me things what really shocked me like, my name, the purpose of my visit, even he tell a thing what really amaze me i was with two of my aunts who were sisters to eachother and also their kids married with eachother and person ask from my aunts whats ur relation to eachother and they said, we are sisters. He laughed and said you have another relation and they both get shocked too.
What i saw as a first hand witness i cant deny how you will see at those events?The imagination is a very powerful tool. It is used by tricksters, fraudsters, and con artists.
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Why God says before reading Quran to seek refuge in God from Satan.. Coz reacts by watching not by what we imagine ... God only knows what we think and what is in our hearts which propels for imagination? Iblees has no such capacity ...
Where do you think lies come from? According to the great reading, they come from satan, correct?
It is a fact that the human imagination is the only source of falsehood in the universe.
Peace,
Ayman
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"How he knows... This person is using Men of Jinn for his assistance.. That's what people say.. "
most people really looking for miracles and Jinns so they could see and get assistance from them.
In your case I think the real Jinn could be the friend assisting.
long back people believed these Jinn and ghost stories for their unsolvable issues, now people give reasons for most but yet I see belief plays are positive role for many who could not find reasons.Belief plays no role in knowing the concept of "jinn"/fantasy. In fact most of those who believe in "jinn"/fantasy are going to hell per 3441.
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There is truth and falsehood, which we can face in our life, some times we know what is what before hand, most times we dont know, If the truth the reality comes from God, the unreality or falsehood that we take from the entity I call Jinn.
In modern world there are so many falsehoods that spread, so many false claims, that attract people more than the reality,
I agree and like what Brother Ayman proposes, in a way our own fantasies makes us believe and fall for these falsehoods, in a way many people do not like the simple truth, instead go after the big falsehoods, like our television for TRP pushes up all the exaggerated lies to the people. And see how imaginary enemies and entities are being created now for example the ISIS, its not only the fault of those spreading these, but naivety of the people believing these and fall for these, instead of the simple real truth that will be hidden from them due to their misguidance.You have made an excellent point. While all truth comes from the god, all falsehood comes from "jinn." The ONLY source of falsehood in the universe is the human imagination. No one can argue against this indisputable fact. Thank you.
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Sorry a little bit out of topic ...I just check your website http//www.quran4peace.org/ (English section)
I am looking forward to the completion of all chapters in English (so far only 3 chapters are available in English).I have completed a draft of 5 additional chapters and working on another one for the total of 9 chapters (so far). I want to make sure all the chapters mesh well together and then publish everything at once. This is one of the topics I discuss in the book and hence this discussion is very useful
Peace,
Ayman
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Not quite as per what you described ...but maybe these are the verses that you are looking for?
And on the Day when We gather them all, then We will say to the malaikah/controllers “Was it you that these people used to serve?”
They will say “Be You glorified. You are our Master, not they". Nay, they were serving the Jinn; most were believers to them.Thank you. This is exactly what is happening. Idolaters thing that the fantasies control things. For example, they think a black stone in Mecca controls wiping sins. In reality they have faith in a fantasy not real controllers. Obviously, those who serve fantasies and believe in them are going to hell.
Peace,
Ayman
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Will Malaika go to Hell though they are Jinn by creation and created by Fire? No.. Coz they are not part of Testing… God created Men and Jin for testing and Not elite Malaika..
Malak is just a status. If a malak/controller disobeys the god then they will stop being a malak.
4129 “ those who disbelieved will say, "Our Lord, show us those who misled us of the jinn and men we may put them under our feet that they will be among the lowest."
The above verse is the dialogue of those who are in Hell… what they request from God? They want to know who are those who misled them from MEN and JINN… the one who misled and the one got misled all in same boat.. If it is the FANTASY of human misled those in Hell, why they should beg to God to show those who misled them of MEN and JINN?... Further, how they can put those who misled them under their feet? How can they put the fantasy of their own under their feet so that it goes to the lowest? Doesn’t it manifestly indicate that MEN and JINN both in Hell going through to what they did in the past? Yes it is…
If one doesn’t not understand this clear verse, I wonder who would ever understand any verse..Again, the passage makes it clear that the fantasies and humans are tied together. A fantasy are powerless without a human that serves it. A fantasy can make the human imagine that a stone cube in Mecca has power to forgive sins if you spin around it 7 times. This remains a mental picture until the fantasy controls some human dude who builds a stone cube and invents a Hadith that says spinning 7 times around it will make you sinless. This is how all idol worship works. It starts with the fantasy and then the human creates the false idol of the fantasy.
Peace,
Ayman
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Ayman your statements must be based on all the verses dealing with the subject. You only used a few of them, some short verses ( what about the above and the following ?)
In all occurences of "jin", can you replace this word with "fantasies" ?Yes. All occurrences of "jin" we can replace the word with "fantasies." This makes better sense than leaving it untranslated because we are clueless about its meaning or replacing it with other popular meanings such as ghosts or red men with forks or serpents/reptilians )