The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven

jkhan

Where do you think lies come from? According to the great reading, they come from satan, correct?

It is a fact that the human imagination is the only source of falsehood in the universe.

Peace,

Ayman

I am afraid it is not debate but deviation...

Finally... Let me tell you..
God said to His malaika I am gonna place khalifa on Earth.. Malaika said they will shed blood...
Has God created Men at this time? No.. But planning to create..
But How did malaika know Men will shed blood..?
Had Iblees fallen at this time? No.. After Adam's creation and order to submit only iblees fallen...
So how did malaika knew?
Coz malaika knew they are a creature and not being tested.. And if put to test then will begin trouble.. So it is human inner nature that makes him shed blood...to shed blood human has to be as evil as he can.. They knew it.. So evil is within human not iblees's.. Iblees whisper that's all..
Iblees story is later addition.. Malaika never knew that iblees would deny God.. And He will become enemy to khalifa on Earth and become fantasy ..
Even before the fantasy (jinn as per you) is fallen malaika predicted human shed blood indicates clearly that human heart is the key... If that corrupts he is lost.. God sealed disbelievrs heart from guidance.. So when no guidance vulnerable for any act... No fantasy..

What if iblees didn't fall, will not Allah create Adam? What if no iblees no hell? All will be there.. Human will deny God whether there is iblees or not... God started create human to test not based on iblees

If you are happy with fantasy I am not here to bring anymore explanation.. But my only wish is to expose truth by God.. In case if my understanding is wrong may Allah let me understand truth somehow .. Be it what Ayman explains truth may God expose to me and let me comprehend.. Truth is one and there is no second truth to truth..

Houriya

If you agree that there are allegorical verses then by definition allegories address the imagination.

These verses are addressed to our heart to understand their meaning.

Also, the term is actually used in several other passages and not only in 2066. It is used to denote haughtiness/arrogance is 436, 3118, and 5723. Of course, haughtiness/arrogance is a product of the human fantasy.

Everything we do is governed by thought.
I created a thread dedicated to thought, inspiration and creativity
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0

It is also used directly in relation to Iblis/"jinn" in 1764 ... and bring on them with your fantasies and your foot...

1764 "And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces / cavalry /alkhayl and men against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them." But the devil promises nothing but deceit.

Alkayl doesn't mean imagination = khayal, but forces / cavalry.

I had already said it before, I think the ego is our invisible companion of which the reading speaks.
The ego is always right, wants to have the last word, believes that it can control everything, which is at the origin of the exhaustion of humans.

When the human is identified with a thought, with the physical body, with goods , money, children, professional, family situation..etc he becomes proud, liar, violent, stingy, he think he is powerful ... etc

Consciousness, attention, connection purifies our inner state
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611098.0

Men among the jin and humans both think.

726 "And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin."
727 "And they thought as you thought, that God would not send anyone."

The word men/rijal has a literal meaning for both humans and jin.

Imagination comes first before invention. We first imagine flying machines and then when we make this fantasy submit to our reason with the truth in the laws of aerodynamics we invent airplanes. On the other hand, if our fantasy controls us then we would go crazy and jump from a high building thinking we could flap our arms and fly.

When we are in a state of mental void, we receive inspiration to create directly from the infinite source of creativity.
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0

So according to your physical interpretation someone who is physically blind and deaf is destined for hell!

That's not what I said, to sum up, a blind man with a healthy heart is able to understand unlike one who sees with a sick, veiled, sealed heart.

Peace

Houriya

917 And a soul / nafs and what He made.
918 So He inspired / alhamaha him (nafs) his immorality, as well as his piety!.

Where do you think lies come from? According to the great reading, they come from satan, correct?

It is a fact that the human imagination is the only source of falsehood in the universe.

Peace

jkhan

Brother Ayman.. Peace..

I think you have not answered one of my key questions.. Unless I missed.. From my end it is imperative to pose certain questions based on your answer...

Question was..

Is the Day of ressurection literal / actual / physical ?

This is concerned with your official acceptance of Hell not a place but a state ...

If you are still in this forum, pls respond.. So that I would in sha Allah clarify why Hell is Literal..
Just a reply of Yes or No is even enough to my question..

Your quotes about .

"Hell is literal but its descriptions are allegorical"

"Hell is not a place but is a state of no life and no death. It is a state of being trapped in one’s own worst fantasies. It is like a constant eternal nightmare.."

Very funny your quotes.. ;D

ayman

God said to His malaika I am gonna place khalifa on Earth.. Malaika said they will shed blood...
Has God created Men at this time? No.. But planning to create..
But How did malaika know Men will shed blood..?
Had Iblees fallen at this time? No.. After Adam's creation and order to submit only iblees fallen...
So how did malaika knew?

The "malaika"/controllers know the future. They also knew the future in 1880 However, the future (time) is not linear but is multi-dimensional. So it is dependent on our choices.

If you are happy with fantasy I am not here to bring anymore explanation.. But my only wish is to expose truth by God.. In case if my understanding is wrong may Allah let me understand truth somehow .. Be it what Ayman explains truth may God expose to me and let me comprehend.. Truth is one and there is no second truth to truth..

No matter what you are happy with you know that the human fantasy is the ONLY source of falsehood in the universe. This is why you didn't answer my question about the source of falsehood.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

These verses are addressed to our heart to understand their meaning.

Unlike the brain, the heart doesn't have reasoning/understanding ability. The only way to understand allegorical imagery is via the imagination. The imagination then triggers feelings (the heart). If we take allegorical passages literally then we will not understand them.

Everything we do is governed by thought.
I created a thread dedicated to thought, inspiration and creativity
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0

Thank you. I will try to check it.

1764 "And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces / cavalry /alkhayl and men against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them." But the devil promises nothing but deceit.
Alkayl doesn't mean imagination = khayal, but forces / cavalry.

Remember the "get off your high horse" allegory. Horses in the past were a status symbol for nobility. The meaning of "khayl" is derived from arrogance "mokhtal" which is a product of the imagination "khayal". Also, your translation of "men" is inaccurate. The word is "rijlk" not "rijalk".

I had already said it before, I think the ego is our invisible companion of which the reading speaks.
The ego is always right, wants to have the last word, believes that it can control everything, which is at the origin of the exhaustion of humans.

The ego is the product of the imagination that inflates our ego.

When the human is identified with a thought, with the physical body, with goods , money, children, professional, family situation..etc he becomes proud, liar, violent, stingy, he think he is powerful ... etc

All lies in the universe come from the human imagination. His imagination makes him proud and he "imagines" he is powerful.

Consciousness, attention, connection purifies our inner state
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611098.0

Yes being conscious and attentive to the real you (that is part of the truth in the universe) allows you to control your imagination and make it submit to you.

Men among the jin and humans both think.
726 "And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin."
727 "And they thought as you thought, that God would not send anyone."
The word men/rijal has a literal meaning for both humans and jin.

Haven't you heard of imaginary men? Don't Sunnis seek help from an imaginary man in Hadiths named Mohamed who is not the real Mohamed? Don't Christian seek help from an imaginary man named Jesus who is not the real Jesus?

When we are in a state of mental void, we receive inspiration to create directly from the infinite source of creativity.
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0

That's not what I said, to sum up, a blind man with a healthy heart is able to understand unlike one who sees with a sick, veiled, sealed heart.

Since the heart is not the physical organ people "understand" with then the passage is clearly allegorical. I am sure there are lots of idolaters who have healthy hearts while there are many monotheists with high cholesterol and high blood pressure and physically unhealthy hearts . Again, you are confirming that the passage is allegorical.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

917 And a soul / nafs and what He made.
918 So He inspired / alhamaha him (nafs) his immorality, as well as his piety!.

Exactly, inspired its immorality and piety, not inspired its lies. Immorality happens when the self loses control and falls under the control if the imagination. The god is the truth and creates with the truth. The god doesn't inspire lies. The ONLY source of lies in the universe is the human imagination.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

I think you have not answered one of my key questions.. Unless I missed.. From my end it is imperative to pose certain questions based on your answer...
Question was..

Is the Day of ressurection literal / actual / physical ?

The descriptions of the day of resurrection in the great reading are clearly allegorical.

This is concerned with your official acceptance of Hell not a place but a state ...
If you are still in this forum, pls respond.. So that I would in sha Allah clarify why Hell is Literal..
Just a reply of Yes or No is even enough to my question..
Your quotes about .
"Hell is literal but its descriptions are allegorical"
"Hell is not a place but is a state of no life and no death. It is a state of being trapped in one’s own worst fantasies. It is like a constant eternal nightmare.."
Very funny your quotes.. ;D

If you think superficially then of course you will find it funny. However, if you think a little deeper and even take it physically then what physically gives the feeling of pain is not the fire but it is the electric signals from the nervous system to the brain. If the brain spontaneously produces a signal that is equal to the maximum pain it is able to register then this will be the worst pain it feels and worse than any physical fire. This is a physical scientific fact.

Peace,

Ayman

jkhan

The "malaika"/controllers know the future. They also knew the future in 1880 However, the future (time) is not linear but is multi-dimensional. So it is dependent on our choices.

No matter what you are happy with you know that the human fantasy is the ONLY source of falsehood in the universe. This is why you didn't answer my question about the source of falsehood.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman

I don't know about universe coz I don't believe in it .. But human fantasy or imagination is not the only source of falsehood..
Even you agree or not before human a malak was in falsehood on his own... What was the falsehood? Falsehood was his arrogance.. Arrogance is not the right choice for created things... Arrogance comes coz of falsehood... And other falsehood the m as kal did was denying the Creator's command .. That's manifestly his own decision.. No human is involved in his decision...
Third falsehood is he decided to revenge.. Revenge on all God's creation which is created for Testing... Revenge coz he chosed the falsehood on his own and he knew the outcome of falsehood.. So.. He decided to revenge who was directly or indirectly reason for his falsehood.. Up until he was in elite group..

So.. He got a a respite from his Lord to accomplish what he willed what he chosen the falsehood wrong path... Human has nothing to do with it.. Coz it was not human who did all this...
Human waa only a trap to it but not all. That fallen malak (iblees) is like advertisement giving attraction to go for it... Human is not the only source of falsehood... All falsehood started well before human ever did a falsehood.. Humans first ever falsehood is denying the order of God...
Try to grasp it...
Human is given his own faculties to think and choose right and leave wrong ... That faculty is within himself... How he uses is his own business... Every individual is questioned coz he is responsible for what he does.. Human is not human without brain... Or dath matter if human loses his thinking power he is no more human.. Don't you see when brain fails and they act like child or totally against to their character. Not even able to understand anything.. That all part of human... So acting like a child is not his genuine choice but one faculty fails. . So fantasy or imagination is human choice using the faculty he is provided with...
He may go wrong listening to the deception(whispers) of Satan or listening to his fellow human deception. But it is his choice... Within himself..

Regarding your point of malak.. I am sorry I have given my full understanding of Quran what malak is anf if you deviate thata your fantasy.. Agaun I say malak is a creature jinn created by fire and not non existing status for which you have not brought any proof and you won't and you can't bring from Quran..

jkhan

The descriptions of the day of resurrection in the great reading are clearly allegorical.

If you think superficially then of course you will find it funny. However, if you think a little deeper and even take it physically then what physically gives the feeling of pain is not the fire but it is the electric signals from the nervous system to the brain. If the brain spontaneously produces a signal that is equal to the maximum pain it is able to register then this will be the worst pain it feels and worse than any physical fire. This is a physical scientific fact.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace brother...

I hope you are thorough with the meaning of allegory or parable to say description of day of ressurection is "clearly allegorical "

Is this earth and heavens real? Yes it is coz we live on it we see it as long as we can tangibly observe it...

So what could be if it is replaced..
1448 "on the Day the earth will be replaced by another earth, and the heavens , and all creatures will come out before Allah , the One, the Prevailing."

Is above allegorical?

3968 "And the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth will swoon away, except him whom Allah will. Then it will blown a second time and behold, they will be standing, looking on, And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged"

What allegory you find here to explain it in any other way other that how God has worded it.. Do anyone need explanation over these verses if it is allegorical?

I don't see not only in the above verses but any verse of day of ressurection any allegory but obvious verses directly speaking..

Unfortunately your fantasy allow you to think allegorical..

If day of ressurection is real what lies ahead is Janna and Jahanna.. From reality to just stay of mind.. No way.. Day of ressurection is real so do Janna and Jahanna . ...

I can bring all the verses of day of ressurection and hell and Janna.. But useless for you coz you will remain saying allegorical... At least debate point of view positive readers would get an idea what day of ressurection is and hell and Janna is..
That's all..

Your second point I said funny coz both the statements crystal clearly contradicts.. Any reader will understand your statement goes in two directions..

ayman

I don't know about universe coz I don't believe in it .. But human fantasy or imagination is not the only source of falsehood..
Even you agree or not before human a malak was in falsehood on his own... What was the falsehood? Falsehood was his arrogance.. Arrogance is not the right choice for created things... Arrogance comes coz of falsehood... And other falsehood the m as kal did was denying the Creator's command .. That's manifestly his own decision.. No human is involved in his decision...
Third falsehood is he decided to revenge.. Revenge on all God's creation which is created for Testing... Revenge coz he chosed the falsehood on his own and he knew the outcome of falsehood.. So.. He decided to revenge who was directly or indirectly reason for his falsehood.. Up until he was in elite group..
So.. He got a a respite from his Lord to accomplish what he willed what he chosen the falsehood wrong path... Human has nothing to do with it.. Coz it was not human who did all this...
Human waa only a trap to it but not all. That fallen malak (iblees) is like advertisement giving attraction to go for it... Human is not the only source of falsehood... All falsehood started well before human ever did a falsehood.. Humans first ever falsehood is denying the order of God...
Try to grasp it...
Human is given his own faculties to think and choose right and leave wrong ... That faculty is within himself... How he uses is his own business... Every individual is questioned coz he is responsible for what he does.. Human is not human without brain... Or dath matter if human loses his thinking power he is no more human.. Don't you see when brain fails and they act like child or totally against to their character. Not even able to understand anything.. That all part of human... So acting like a child is not his genuine choice but one faculty fails. . So fantasy or imagination is human choice using the faculty he is provided with...
He may go wrong listening to the deception(whispers) of Satan or listening to his fellow human deception. But it is his choice... Within himself..

Regarding your point of malak.. I am sorry I have given my full understanding of Quran what malak is anf if you deviate thata your fantasy.. Agaun I say malak is a creature jinn created by fire and not non existing status for which you have not brought any proof and you won't and you can't bring from Quran..

Peace Jkhan,

Just listen to what you are saying. You are saying that Iblees was the source of falsehood. You are actually confirming what I am saying if you stop and think instead of being concerned with winning some argument. I am saying that Iblees is the fantasy and that the fantasy is the source of all falsehood in the universe. Each human has a fantasy attached to him or her. Also, everything will be clearer when you ponder on 326, which clearly says that "mlk" is a status not a specie.

Peace,

Ayman

jkhan

Peace Jkhan,

Just listen to what you are saying. You are saying that Iblees was the source of falsehood. You are actually confirming what I am saying if you stop and think instead of being concerned with winning some argument. I am saying that Iblees is the fantasy and that the fantasy is the source of all falsehood in the universe. Each human has a fantasy attached to him or her. Also, everything will be clearer when you ponder on 326, which clearly says that "mlk" is a status not a specie.

Peace,

Ayman

Brother..
Pls read what I have written... I am responding to what your concern which is human is the source of all falsehood..
What I have written is very clear unless spelling or grammar mistake..

So your fantasy, now who gave this fantasy to say that I am trying to win the debate.. Who will name me that I have won the debate? Will somekne here assigned to name the winners of debate..
Just relax.. All I want is to take the truth to the top either through me or through others who furnish the truth with logic... Truth will always win... Not the one who debate or the one who lose the debate..
Again I repeat human is not the greatest source of falsehood ever..no proof from Quran for you to derive.. But all falsehood started within a malak who is created by fire.. He is a physical creature cold jinn..

Enquiry

Salam Ayman,

Hope you are doing well. I have been searching for some answers in this forum I went eventually all the way back since the inception of this forum. I had the pleasure to read your articles and understanding of the cube and other important topics. There was an article that Wakas gave a link to, but i think the links dont work prior to 2003, so I was hoping you still had that artice. I'm not sure about the name of the article, but it was along the lines of the bond or commitment or contract between mankind and God. In the end I was looking answers regarding Hell fire (may we all be saved from that terrible pusnishment by our dear God).

If it's not too much, I was hoping you could answer my question of whether Hell is forever, and how it is justified. Please see my link

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611032.0

Thank you for your contribution/time.

Peace

tutti_frutti

salam ayman

my understanding

what do you mean angels (malak) is just a status?? a status given to whom?? and what makes you think that it is just a status??

when The God tells the angels He wants to create humans on earth, to whom is He speaking??

unless mistaken i remember there is a verse where The God says that the heavens will be filled with angels on judgement day ... what are these angels that will fill the heavens on the day of resurrection??

who will carry the throne of The God if not 8 angels??

or in the following verse 5 of surah 45

“almost might the heavens above be rent asunder while the angels hymn the praise of their Lord and ask forgiveness for those on the earth. Lo! Allah, He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.”

when The God says that angels seek forgiveness for those on earth... what do you think these angels are???

my point, it is quite obvious that angels are separate creatures and the jinn as well

surah 34 verse 14

“Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.”

how does imagination even fit in the above verse?

jinn are made from fire, what does imagination being made of fire even mean??

what makes you think that verse 3.26 is talking about angel as a status??? when i read the verse i understsnd quite clearly The God is speaking about anyone He gives sovereignty to which includes human kings, there is no mention of being about malaika

again, what made you think angel is just a status?? and if it is a status, to whom is it given?? who are these creatures that are given such status???

iblees is not a source of anything...
the only source of everything is The God
everything is from Him
also, unless mistaken, i remember there is a verse where The God said He created the human with his virtues and vices

the devil makes false promises, lies about The God, misleads etc

i understand the source of everything is The God, and only He permits things to exist (falsehood existing is a permission from Him as well)

peace

jkhan

1850-51 "When We told the angels to submit before Adam they all together submitted except Iblis. He became jinn and he sinned against the command of his Lord. Why do you obey him and his offspring instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? How terrible will be the recompense that the wrong doers will receive.
I did not call to witness the creation of the heavens and earth nor to witness their own creation nor did I want to be helped by those who lead people astray"

Peace everyone...
Very carefully read above two verses in any translation or in pure Arabic..
Do the above two verse give any hint that Jinn is non existing fantasy of human?

Every living creature once created and increase through reproduction.. Not exempted for Jinn even they be in a state of malak... Who is exempted from this is in fact God.. "He doesn't beget nor begotten' rest all does..
By thesw verses it makes manifest that God created Djinn well before human and they became manifold.. Out of them God chose whom willed to the status of malaika.. Even out of them God chose whome will for the creation process of Heavens and Earth.. For sure even though iblees was a malak before sinned, God didn't choose him for creation of heavens and Earth.. And non of the Jinns were part of creation process of heavens and Earth.. But only elite of elite malaika were..
The above verses very crystal clearly proves that..
Many glaring wording evidences are comprised in these two verses for those who ponder...

tutti_frutti

salam jkhan

i hope you are doing well

you quote the verse as “he became of the jinn” whilst the word for word translation is “he was of the jinn” so we cannot assume the “he became” as definately correct (although i agree with you perhaps jinn and angles are same creation but jinn disbelieve and disobey The Lord but angels obey The Lord and fear Him)

you say “every living creature once created and increase through reproduction.. Not exempted for Jinn even they be in a state of malak...”

so you mean angels have children? i must disagree with you

i understand angels are male

“Or did We create the angels female while they were witnesses?”

“And they make the angels who themselves are slaves of the Most Gracious females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded, and they will be questioned.”

i am not sure, but jinn on other hand i think perhaps have females

you say “a non of the jinn were part of creation process of heavens and Earth.. But only elite of elite malaika were.. ”

i understand you are saying “elite of elite” of angels helped in creation? (i dont think we are told in Quran about there being elite or elite of elite of angels... we cannot make such claim of there being elite or elites of elite)
and brother what makes you think that angels helped in creation of heavens and earth??
The earth and heavens (and everything else literally including angels, michael and gabriel) were created by The God alone
He does not mention anything about the angels taking part in creation when He describes creating the heavens and the earth (or anything else) I understand from the verse you quoted that the jinn were not witness to creation of heavens and earth ie not present ... no mention or allusion to angels in the verse

also, what does it mean “elite” or “elite of elite” of angels? The God does not make clear to us that there is a distinction between angels being elite and non elite, or a distinction that we should know.
to my knowledge the only time He mentions a distinction between angles is in the following verse

All praise belongs to God, the creator of the heavens and the earth who has made the angels messengers of two or three or four wings. He increases the creation as He wills. The God has power over all things.

surah 37 verse 8 “They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are thrown at from every side”
the above verse in my opinion does not make a distinction between angels (i may be wrong) but perhaps talks about all angels in general

(please verify all verses quoted)

to sum up my understand angels are males, they did not help in creation of the heavens or earth or in creation of anything else (The God simply says Be and things are) and we are not aware of there being elite or non elite angels

peace

jkhan

salam jkhan

i hope you are doing well

you quote the verse as “he became of the jinn” whilst the word for word translation is “he was of the jinn” so we cannot assume the “he became” as definately correct (although i agree with you perhaps jinn and angles are same creation but jinn disbelieve and disobey The Lord but angels obey The Lord and fear Him)

you say “every living creature once created and increase through reproduction.. Not exempted for Jinn even they be in a state of malak...”

so you mean angels have children? i must disagree with you )