Almost all pagans are pantheists

[good_logic]

Abdun Nur.
So your source of knowledge is not claims?
And your reasoning is solid?
The fact that all of us learn since childhood means we do not have full knowledge. We all get our knowledge from "others" and since books make up the majority of our sources, we must all learn from "claims" according to your reasoning.
However you say your reasoning has evidence. So where is your source /book ...?

If you reflect ,you will see the flaw in your reasoning.

Or do you expect people to reason the same as you?

Just because you think you worked it out by your reasoning does not mean it is evidence for others.
Evidence is supposed to leave no doubt.
Or may be the millions that do not agree with you are ignoring your evidence?
True evidence cancels all arguments like 2+2= 4

Or is your reasoning blinding your intellect?
Or may be mine and others intellect?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Abdun_Nur]

It's quite a simple concept, you appear to be struggling, what is stated is a claim, it matters not the source, the claim could be axiomatic as evidence abounds in its support, or it could require investigation before it could be accepted to alter your beliefs, it's rare that people are willing to face the truth, most will do almost anything to remain stagnant in their beliefs, this state of mind is called cognative dissonance.

You could ask questions if you are in debate to help determine a claim through source referencing, or a flow of reasoning, or you can research the claim independently.

But to accept anything that would effect your perceptions and beliefs fundamentally, without evidence, means you cannot reason, which is the very reason a religious god based mindset is so stagnant.,

Baseless beliefs stagnante consciousness,, jahannam means a stagnant state or environment, and this state can negatively effect all beliefs as a cascade of falsehood, you cannot build on a false foundation.

Evidence is not a book, it is connected proofs, things examined from various points of view that point to the same conclusion.

For example what is the evidence a entity exists that you reference as a god? This is a fundamental belief that effects all other beliefs, so it stagnates, you cannot build on a false foundation, no evidence exists, and the cognative dissonance clings to "blind faith".

What I believe is not relavant to this process, belief is a individual responsibility, I apply the method of examining evidence from as many points of view as possible to draw a conclusion, it may be possible my conclusion could be altered in the future if new evidence is discovered adjusting the conclusion, and a reasoning soul would be open to adjusting a conclusion with new evidence.

The govern mental mafia imposes scholing to prevent the development of the skill of reasoning, that was the objective at the outset of the imposed schooling system, it rewards conformists and punishes nonconformist thinking.

So before anyone could begin to form proven truth as their foundations of belief, they'd need to develop the skill to reason to truth, if reason was the basis of education there would not be a single religion on earth, not a single mafia, govern mental, medical, financial, or any other form, all these forms of mental slavery are built on wrong beliefs.

[good_logic]

Put honestly ,I think we are both struggling..

I admit I struggle with me. Who am I , where do I come from and why?
You must be struggling with something?
I cannot accept everything you see around us originated from nothing . There must be a Creator and a purpose for the created.

My reasoning of GOD is the origin of all that exist. I struggle comprehending this supreme being with my limited mind ,brain and faculties.

You telling me I am making up GOD,does not make sense to me. It is the other way around GOD made me.

Why do I need to give you evidence for existence of GOD. Am I asking you to give me evidence for the inexistence of GOD?
Can you at least see that it works both ways?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Jafar]

The infinite creator, as name implies are infinite, has no bound, has no limit, an infinite.
As such the infinite creator encompass every-things and every-one.
That's the reason why there's only 1 in the first place, because it's boundless has no border.
How many infinity could possibly exist? only 1, not a bordered / limited one but boundless / unlimited one.

Next there are those who took the illusion of separation and there are those who embrace unity.

All atrocities are performed by those who took the illusion of separation,

I AM/We are Superior others are inferior.
I AM/We are Righteous others are sinners.
I AM/We are Saved others are condemned.
I AM/We are The Chosen others are unchosen
I AM/We are uber alles others are under us.
I AM/We are muslimin others are kafirin
I AM/We are Israelites others are Goyim
Our Book(s) are written by God other's book are written by Men.

And ultimately
I AM God others are merely my servants.

All egocentric bastards think that they're separated from others and superior compared to others.
Striving to empower others and control others, usually through FEAR.

[jkhan]

It's quite a simple concept, you appear to be struggling, what is stated is a claim, it matters not the source, the claim could be axiomatic as evidence abounds in its support, or it could require investigation before it could be accepted to alter your beliefs, it's rare that people are willing to face the truth, most will do almost anything to remain stagnant in their beliefs, this state of mind is called cognative dissonance.

You could ask questions if you are in debate to help determine a claim through source referencing, or a flow of reasoning, or you can research the claim independently.

But to accept anything that would effect your perceptions and beliefs fundamentally, without evidence, means you cannot reason, which is the very reason a religious god based mindset is so stagnant.,

Baseless beliefs stagnante consciousness,, jahannam means a stagnant state or environment, and this state can negatively effect all beliefs as a cascade of falsehood, you cannot build on a false foundation.

Evidence is not a book, it is connected proofs, things examined from various points of view that point to the same conclusion.

For example what is the evidence a entity exists that you reference as a god? This is a fundamental belief that effects all other beliefs, so it stagnates, you cannot build on a false foundation, no evidence exists, and the cognative dissonance clings to "blind faith".

What I believe is not relavant to this process, belief is a individual responsibility, I apply the method of examining evidence from as many points of view as possible to draw a conclusion, it may be possible my conclusion could be altered in the future if new evidence is discovered adjusting the conclusion, and a reasoning soul would be open to adjusting a conclusion with new evidence.

The govern mental mafia imposes scholing to prevent the development of the skill of reasoning, that was the objective at the outset of the imposed schooling system, it rewards conformists and punishes nonconformist thinking.

So before anyone could begin to form proven truth as their foundations of belief, they'd need to develop the skill to reason to truth, if reason was the basis of education there would not be a single religion on earth, not a single mafia, govern mental, medical, financial, or any other form, all these forms of mental slavery are built on wrong beliefs.

Peace. AN

What is the definition of TRUTH in your angle of perception...?

What makes one to think that it is true and what makes another to take the very thing as wrong..

Who has created on this earth truth based on evidence? Then what is evidence to make one thing to be confined as truth... Who are behind this and how reliable they are..

So.. Human makes what is true and what is false... Is that what you accept? No one else can possibly make it that's what human deem.. Isn't it?

Do you agree that human are limited in knowledge? You agree or not that's what happening.. Or whatever human knows is maximum knowledge on this earth and beyond that no knowledge to date.. Next question is what is knowledge..? Is it knowing the right from wrong fundamentally also advance...

So someone, a human knew everything aright to pass to generations after generations to claim that this is called knowledge..

Don't even for a second consider my above concerns and explanations are irrelevant to the topic... But that's essential in what you guys keep debating...

You have a claim and on it you are constant and you want another to prove that your claim is wrong... So decision is in you... Suppose if you accept that other person is right then it is only within you.. So is that the truth for whole world..?
Or there is a truth unwavering forever..?

Our acceptance and declining won't make an absolute truth(REALITY) on its own false or right.. It is we unfortunately make option of truth and false.. That won't change the reality? What is reality then.. Reality is something for example.. You do breathe and what you breath is reality.. We may call it oxygen or air whatever.. But reality is there undeniable..coz we breathe.. If the source what you breathe terminates then we perceive absolute reality... Reality is truth.. So simple..

Do we accept as human that we have an inborn nature that we tend to believe.. BELIEF is nature of human.. How belief get formed? Stupids also believe and intelligents also do believe in anything that they have not seen in their naked eyes..
For example.. Most on earth do believe that the earth they live is spinning... To accept it, has everyone who already believed in it, explored each and everything before accepting it or they trusted/ believed on others... Is that true that earth is spinning? But there is a reality.. Reality is true.. No human can change the reality .. But I have not seen and I don't feel either. So it's an utmost belief... If it is not a belief then what is it? Have you explored to the maximum like you claim verse by verse proof is required ...
So belief is part of life... Well.. So believing in God is part of life for some people on this earth... It is true or false no one can prove.. But there is a reality... If those who believe tally with reality then proof won't matter at all..

Why do you trust or believe what you accepted to believe? That's key?
Is it coz it is beneficial or harmful or imperative or deceived to believe or encouraging or interesting etc etc? So some reason should be there to believe in something...
So who is intelligent after believing in something ? Is it to be blind in belief or research what you accepted with belief?

Research would be the choice.. Right?
But has every question answer on this earth? I don't know about others.. But for me no... every question has no answer..
For example.. If you think a number and how would I know if you ask me to tell what the number you placed in your mind.. So I have no answer for that... No answer doesn't mean that you didn't think a number.. So there is reality on every matter beyond our knowledge..

So if you wait to prove every verse in quran you will never believe on the author of it? Coz you can't prove..

Belief is must... We from our childhood call mother and father to two people.. Did we ever question that are you both our mother and father? Or did we ever bother to take a DNA and prove that so that it confirms and sooth our mind? Is it necessary? So we literally live in belief... So no one can underestimate a belief.. Belief is choice.. But reality is true and that reality should tally with belief...

What about the actual incidents that took place on this earth that was experienced by people and eye witnessed by others... Can we deny or call them as stories of ancients baseless..

For example God says Prophet Musa split the sea and people walked through..
Now the question is... Did it really take place? Can you prove this verse in your life time to convince others with evidence etc etc..
Until you prove you are not in a position to accept verse by verse..

As I say there is a reality... Reality is true... People who witnessed and experienced this knew it did take place... Can we go back to history and witness it? Unfortunately we don't have technology for that... Though technology is there now to know of recent history precisely ... Probably if the earth survive for another 2000 years, we may know the history of 2021 in 4021 in clear HD picture... But not what happened to musa and people..

So neglecting REALITY is sheer negligence...

Why one need to bother about quran or any other ancient book... Just explore the reality of nature and that would definitely teach everyone that it is impossible without a Creator .. If still not then no worries.. Destiny and time will expose to all of us what TRUTH is..

So let the people who believe in God live in their belief... Let's hope what they believe is reality...

The biggest question is... In case if what they believe is reality then what would happen to those who denied?
Who is on the side of safety... ?

Believers or disbelievers?

If the reality of existence of God is true then believers is safe...

If the reality of inexistence of God is true both believers and disbelievers would be safe... That is to say all on earth are out of danger even how good or how evil they were

So be wise.. Choose wise.. Who is the potential loser?

[reel]

Peace G.L,

all books of religion are always, no matter what is claimed within them, or by anyone about them, always without exception books of claims, and these claims must always be proven before they are accepted.

Just say you dont want to test claims.

If the Qur'an is "the word of the lord of the universe/creator (Ba'al)", then show evidence firstly this Ba'al exists in someway, and that if this entity exists the claims of the religious book are made directly by them?

I can do that. Want one in your house? Astral realm is full of entities who go around claiming to be God. Ba'al might be dead by now. But shape lifting can make another play his role.

Why do I say "Ba'al", is because you are claiming it indirectly,

Ba'al means "owner", you inherently can only own that which you yourself create,

Umm, you got myths wrong about Mr Ba'al.

If you consider every soul a slave, then they are owned, and as property they may be judged according to the dictates of their master, this is rhe Ba'alist model, the "owner" and the "owned"., this is purely from a point of view of reason, again to get to the point of reason you'd firstly have to prove the claim, proof of the Ba'alist entity, proof you are the property of that entity, proof you are fully informed of the dictates and bound to the dictates of that entity?

Thats like concluding that Kim family created christianity. These days they go around claiming to be God by copying whats in the bible.

To whom it may concern,

Our freedom lies in being servant and property of God. This actually guarantees rights and values we all deserve to have for own empowerment.

The moment our position is cancelled we become toys for those with money and power. Just look at what happened to communist and orthodox sectarian regions.

Peace

[Abdun_Nur]

Peace,

Ba'al means owner, the word itself.

Tri-ba'al is the trinity (Father - son - ghost formerly Mother - Father - son) that forms corporation and trust, allowing the domination of humanity through the five forms of usury, this is the reason the Ba'alists have invented basically the same religion repeatedly as the lies are exposed, they must reinvent the lie, Christianity is at least the 17th version of a Ba'alisms religious mask.

The Qur'an has been Christianised through the corruption of the Arabic language itself, and there is no group who worship Ba'alist values of riba more than Muslims.

Ba'alism is for psychopaths, which are referenced as Jinn, meaning a hidden nature, all psychopaths are narcissists, meaning a psychopath only worship themselves, this form of religion is not entity based but power based, the psychopath seeks power, to be Ba'al (owner)

The Vatican created the 17th version labelled Christianity under the direction of Constantine, to rebuild the failing Roman Ba'alist empire, as a new Holy Roman Empire.

If you wish to be property you are under the control of Ba'al, owner, a ship on the holy see of commerce.

Truth in a pure form is not the same as a fact, a fact in any court is what both parties in dispute agree upon, and they could both agree upon a lie, truth is untainted by error, bias, ulterior motive, or desire to distract others, determining truth is really the question.

The ancient method of determining anything to truth is the trivium, this was a companion book of the Qur'an, until Islam was defeated and the Christianised (Ba'alist) version of Islam was installed.

The trivium is very ancient and was the cause of the Renaissance in Europe, when the crusaders brought the trivium into Europe, and the response to the trivium from the Ba'alists was the inquisition, this failed, it wasn't until they developed mandated schooling the problem of reasoning was finally solved, and this solution was exported globally.

The abilty to reason to truth was common among early Muslims, and completely absent in modern Muslims, I have consistently attempted to encourage Muslims to develop the skill to reason to truth, however the Ba'alist blind faith programming is very difficult to over come for a mind owned by the Ba'alists.

[Abdun_Nur]

Does every question have an answer, no, the ability to determine some questions quanatively would be impossible, for example how many planets exist in perception, or how many bacteria populate the Earth, as we do not have the tools or ability to count them and the number is constantly changing, but for fundamental questions you can determine the truth, such as does a god or gods exist, the evidence does not show any entity god, then that question is answered.

The next question would then be, if no entity exists, then what caused existence?

But the Ba'alist mind can not get past the answer of the original question, they cannot accept the evidence, and so the next question is never asked, this is stagnant thought.

[good_logic]

Abdun Nur.
Are you sure about this ,quote

"...but for fundamental questions you can determine the truth, such as does a god or gods exist, the evidence does not show any entity god, then that question is answered."

What evidence? Or do you call some " human reasoned argument" evidence?

This is key to what we say all of us. Evidence can only mean beyond any doubt.

If some valid reason/s exist to any so called evidence ,then that evidence is faulty. Especially evidence about things beyond our realm!

Look ,just like I cannot make GOD appear in person to some people , they cannot completely rule out/ deny there are unseen worlds/dimensions and may be a GOD that created our world. If our world is limited ,our knowledge is also limited
This is what you seem to ignore.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[good_logic]

(replace the word "Sunni" with any other denominations). Including Ecospirituality .

ecospirituality, surrender and living in Heaven/ peace with NATURE.

Everyone is after their "heaven" .. So what is new about your religion/philosophy/way?

Oh and mine is included there no matter how much I pretend I am not like the others!!!

Don t we all want somewhere peaceful like heaven?

And when you say NATURE, where does it come from? How did it come about? What is its origin? Who initiated its commands to renew and repeat its cycles?

Or may be it is an illusion you see with the eyes that were made for you!
Check and reflect properly.
God bless you.
Peace.

[Abdun_Nur]

Peace G.L,

if you have evidence a god entity exists, I'm all ears, I know of no such evidence, logical fallacies are applied to claims, but no evidence in support of a god entity exists.

If evidence could be found it seems with the number of Ba'alist indoctrinated minds looking for evidence it would have been presented, even the tiniest amount of evidence, yet there is none.

I'm not talking about overwhelming evidence, just the tiniest amount of evidence, a speck of evidence, a grain, an atom, and there is none, so to perpetuate the god entity concept is purely Ba'alist indoctrination, the schooled mind, the unreasoning mind, whatever you wish to name it.

[good_logic]

The one GOD. Creator of everything..

Do you think this universe, you and all that exist has no originator?
Where did it all come from?

You are one ! the evidence of a Creator.

Or where did all this come from? You have evidence?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[jkhan]

Peace G.L,

if you have evidence a god entity exists, I'm all ears, I know of no such evidence, logical fallacies are applied to claims, but no evidence in support of a god entity exists.

If evidence could be found it seems with the number of Ba'alist indoctrinated minds looking for evidence it would have been presented, even the tiniest amount of evidence, yet there is none.

I'm not talking about overwhelming evidence, just the tiniest amount of evidence, a speck of evidence, a grain, an atom, and there is none, so to perpetuate the god entity concept is purely Ba'alist indoctrination, the schooled mind, the unreasoning mind, whatever you wish to name it.

So you anticipate that HUMAN to bring evidence for the existence of God? rotfl

This weak human who himself doesn't know his own begining with evidence would bring evidence of God?...

I am curious what kind of evidence do you expect human to bring to convince that God does exist?
You want the God to get down to earth or you want a miracle that no human can perform?

What is the tangible evidence that you prefer

[jkhan]

Or let me put it in more pragmatic way...

Suppose had you ever lived with one of those prophets who performed miracles.. For example musa or Isa would you believe in God if you see the miracles.. Or would you still need evidence?

Just answer Yes or No.. That's enough pls... Just take yourself to that scenario...

Note.. Don't ask me the prophets were real or whether they lived truly or not.. Just imagine they lived and you lived with one of those.. Just to curb the debate to topic.. ..

[Abdun_Nur]

I'm not expecting anything to be produced as evidence as no god entity could exist, if you managed to get beyond the stagnating mind of god worship, you'd realise this also. I'm saying if a god entity exists then the perceptual reality would indictate such an entity, I'm not the one who believes in a god entity without an atoms worth of actual evidence, that belief system is the Ba'alists structure of religions.

Ba'alist minds function on logical fallacies, for example the logical fallacy of cirular reasoning, this can be applied to percetual reality or a religious book, any religious book can be used.

The logical fallacy of circular reasoning-"God exists we know that to be true since the Bible tell us so the Bible is true because it is the word of God"

" HUMAN to bring evidence for the existence of God" yes that's how it works, you examine the perceptual reality and determine if any evidence exists within that reality to indicate a god entities existence.

I see another logical fallacy, the logical fallacy of Hearsay is generally considered very weak evidence if it is considered evidence at all. ... Especially when such evidence is unfalsifiable (not able to be proven false).

The logical fallacy of hearsay - "prophets who performed miracles."

I'm not talking about magic tricks as evidence, but fundmental indicators a god entity exists,as no evidence exists those indicators do not exist, however if you managed to ask the question beyond the god entiry blind faith. The question of "what caused existsence",, if you managed to accept no evidence exists to support the belief of a god entity, and you concluded no god entity could then exist, then the next question of what caused existence could indeed be answered, but not before that acceptance, holding onto the false belief stagnates you.

[good_logic]

Abdun Nur.
This does not make sense,quote
"
The question of "what caused existsence",, if you managed to accept no evidence exists to support the belief of a god entity, and you concluded no god entity could then exist, then the next question of what caused existence could indeed be answered, but not before that acceptance, holding onto the false belief stagnates you."

"What caused existence"? is just one question that should be answered without conditions.

When we ask that question it means we want to find out "what intelligence" WHO? One can easily deduce that there is a very intelligent design in what we see all around us and in ourselves.
Or do you mean we have to ask "What caused existence" twice? The first time you need to accept "there is no god" then ask it a second time to find out ?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Abdun_Nur]

OK, what I'm saying is your false belief in a god entity gives you the cause of existence of you, the god entity, however it generates a new question, where did the god entity come from, effectively where you came from is a stagnant answer, even if the god entity existed, the question fundamentally remains, what caused existence, for you the god entity but what for the god entity?

This means it answers nothing.

Now you are taking the evidence of consciousness, thought and so design as your basis of a god entity, but that is not the only possibility to that evidence, in fact the god entity diminishes existence in many ways, it removes free will effectively, but we have free will, most do not use it, but it is available, again demonstrating the falsehood of the god entity concept.

I believe the reason most people want the ba'alist god entity is ease, its a quick and easy option, taking little effort and even less thought, and the choice of which Ba'alist religion you apply your easy god answer to is generally geographical, if you're born in USA likely Christian, if your born in middle east likely Muslim, if your born in India likely Hindu etc.

The Ba'alist models are hierarchical, the natural models are not, they attempt to implant hierachy into nature, for example the lion is the king of the Jungle, although the Lion is a plains animal not a jungle animal, it would be more accurate to say the tiger is the king of the jungle.

You cannot determine what caused existence if you hold a false belief, as you believe a god exists, then how can you determine anything about this god entity as no evidence exists, but if you dismiss that false belief, then you may look with fresh eyes at the actual evidence, consider what is actually there and through an honest and unbiast consideration you can indeed determine what caused existence.

[jkhan]

AN...

You didn't answer directly....

Again i ask like you repeated from GA in another topic..

If you were one of those who crossed the sea with Musa, would you have believed in the existence of God? Or would you consider it was just a magic of musa ...

Even if you happen to witness such an astounding incident in your life would you believe existence of creator? That you first answer pls?

[Abdun_Nur]

The questions is utterly irrekevant, a fictional evebt that you beleve somehow has any relevance to anything, it does not.

[jkhan]

The questions is utterly irrekevant, a fictional evebt that you beleve somehow has any relevance to anything, it does not.

Wow... Somehow steangley I knew that this could be the answer I would get from you... I don't know somehow my guess became true... Okay fine..

Let that be an utterly fictional event that never took place... Left all events mentioned in quran be total lie and let the Quran be a total lie... Fine..

But I suggested you in my previous thread that lets hope that it took place...

Again I reiterate... In case you involve in a similar incident which is not fictional but real and of you witness the incident then that would be enough for you to accept that God does exist or you would deny God still..

So simple my question... How it can be irrelevant? Coz evidence is what you looking for... So I am trying to get evidence... Not mine.. But God's...