The Mark on their Forehead
-
the mark of the beast is on the forehead, even if you suscribed to a literal interpretation the ayah, it speaks on the face not the forehead
Yes and the forehead is on the face plus the forehead that is marked everytime they hit their head on the ground. (literal or symbolic)
3.. Shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God (The trickster changed this to "Drink from Rivers of Wine in Heaven")
Both verses are talking about judgement day and both are metaphors. The point is one is talking about punishment for the followers of the false prophet, but the twickster who deceived the false prophet has turned this around and made it part of the reward for the followers of those he deceived
other countries behead, beheading has been a common capital punishment act in many countries and empires for a long time
Yes thats true and I said that myself in my post, but the prophecy is in regard the a False Prophet and the followers of this false prophet (i.e a religion) not a country. But when we talk about Muslim countries we are also talking about the religion because Isalm doesn't seperate church from state.
plus what does it mean "for the witness of Jesus"
"and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God"
Its talking about two different groups of souls that were beheaded
1.. for the witness of Jesus
This first group is christians who were beheaded2.. and for the word of God
The second group are those who believe in God and were beheaded (i.e jews and all others)474- Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers, strike off their heads....
-
I asked this question earlier in the thread but so far no one has answered the question.
How can muslims be sure that the spirit (Gabriel) who spoke to muhammad, was in fact Gabriel and not a trickster sprit ?
1 John 41 Believe not every spirit,but try the spirits whether they are of God
Mark 1322 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
1 Cor 1437 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Isa 820 To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Combine this with the prophecy in the earlier scripture about the beast (Satan) and the false prophet who will deceive his followers who will have the make on their forehead (sura 4829) and who will "taste the wine of Gods wrath (vs quran.. Drink from rivers of wine in heaven ).
And the be-headed victoms of the follows of the false prophet will bear witness at the time of judgement.
And judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads (Revelation 204)
-
Peace Albion,
Very interesting post
1.. The Mark on the face wether it be a physical Mark (sign) or a symbolic Mark..
Islam is the only religion where the followers touch the ground with their foreheads many times a day as a ritual act of praying
Firstly you are talking about the followers of hadith, not ALL Quran alone followers touch the ground with their heads, besides Jewish sects also prostrate and buddhists sects and many others.
2.. The reference that a FALSE prophet has lead these people astray and has deceived them..
This is indicating that the beast (The trickster) will use a false prophet to deceive many. Muslims have know way of knowing for sure that the spirit who revealed the revelations to Muhammad was in fact from God. Muhammad only had the sayso of this spirit himself. A trickster could come in any form and say he was from God in an attempt to deceive.
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world"
The false prophet you speak of is maybe the one fabricated by the HADITH WRITERS and the enemies of the prophet. If the Quran was false the it would have been beaten by truth long ago, where is your logic? Does it take 1400 years to beat falsehood? Hadith was recognised as falsehood immediately by many not just recently just like the corruption in other religions are recognised by the faithful and righteous.
3.. This Prophet wrought miracles before him.
The quran itself is regarded as a Miracle by muslims
Mohammed had no miracles, your point is talking about miracles in plural, and your reference to the Beast is as silly as the hadith claims of such a creature, as far as Quran students are concerned that is of no importance because this is not a prophecy we give significance to. The Quran is claimed to be the Word of GOD and if it is Muhammed's miracle then it is just one and not many.
4.. The reference that the followers of the false prophet will BEHEAD people ..
At the time this prophecy was revealed the common method for killing people was crucifixion... Beheading became a favourite method for muslims to kill people both in the past and also in recent times
Well in the middle ages many were beheaded in the west! It's not only a 'muslim' practice! Besides again you are talking about followers of hadith and not the Quran, your aim is probably to defame the Quran but you have weak points and you are doing a good job of exposing those who only 'claim' to follow the book but follow the false prophet portrayed in hadiths.
5.. The reference that they SHALL drink of wine at the time of judgement..
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God
Islam is the only religion that says the followers of Islam will DRINK FROM RIVERS OF WINE in heaven. Again a trickster playing tricks
This is not at the time of judgement but in heaven.
We can tell the followers of a false prophet by their conduct.
True, falsehood is clear. The corruption in the islamic world today and the deviation from Quran is clear. These are well established points albion, but thanks for your reminder.
Peace
Nural
-
I asked this question earlier in the thread but so far no one has answered the question.
How can muslims be sure that the spirit (Gabriel) who spoke to muhammad, was in fact Gabriel and not a trickster sprit ?
peace albion.
what in the koran makes u think that it is the work of some "trickster spirit" ? what do u think was the spirit trying to trick muhammad into ? -
Well in the middle ages many were beheaded in the west! It's not only a 'muslim' practice!
We are talking about a false prophet and the followers of that false prophet (i.e A Religion). Islam is the ONLY Religion that has in its scripture that God commands the beheading of people. And many christian and jews and other believers in God (muslims who are victoms of Islam) were and still are killed by Islam in this way.
Besides again you are talking about followers of hadith and not the Quran,
No I quoted from the quran not the hadith.
812- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.
474- Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers, strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives
-
Salaams ,
something in the bible - i think,(of all places) ,but made sense.
"?When you pray, do not babble repetitiously like the Gentiles/ignorants, because they think that by their many words they will be heard. Do not be like them, for God knows what you need before you ask him?
Would like to see if there was something, like this ,to this degree in the quran -if anyone here knows?-Thanks.
God Bless.
-
Salaams MZ,
Salaams ,
something in the bible - i think,(of all places) ,but made sense.
"?When you pray, do not babble repetitiously like the Gentiles/ignorants, because they think that by their many words they will be heard. Do not be like them, for God knows what you need before you ask him?
Would like to see if there was something, like this ,to this degree in the quran -if anyone here knows?-Thanks.
God Bless.
You can check the following Ayat
-
I asked this question earlier in the thread but so far no one has answered the question. If muslims are so convinced that the quran is the word of God, they must have some criteria to come to that conclusion.
Muhammad said Gabriel spoke to him and gave him the revelations. Firstly what proof did Gabriel give Muhammad that he was in fact Gabriel and not a trickster spirit.
The scripture gives many revelations on how to test a spirit if it is, or is not from God. There are also many verses on how to test for a false prophet.
It is very convenient that those verses have been left of the quran
How can muslims be sure that the spirit (Gabriel) who spoke to muhammad, was in fact Gabriel and not a trickster sprit ?
1 John 41 Believe not every spirit,but try the spirits whether they are of God
Mark 1322 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
1 Cor 1437 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Isa 820 To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Combine this with the prophecy in the earlier scripture about the beast (Satan) and the false prophet who will deceive his followers who will have the make on their forehead (sura 4829) and who will "taste the wine of Gods wrath (vs quran.. Drink from rivers of wine in heaven ).
And the be-headed victoms of the follows of the false prophet will bear witness at the time of judgement.
And judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads (Revelation 204)
-
albion, why do you take only a portion of the scripture and toss aside the rest? For you are not accurately quoting Revelations. Here is what it says of the anti-Christ in the King James Version
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev 1316-18
There is no mention in the Quran of a mark on the right hand or of a mark having any relation to buying or selling things or of there being a numerical value equal to 666.
As for the babbling you mentioned earlier, are you Jewish? If not, then you are a Gentile. Therefore, by your own standards, your reptition of certain prayers could be deemed "babbling." Or do you not repeat The Lord's Prayer or the Twenty-Third Psalm in the same way Muslims recite passages from The Quran? Have you not studied the Bible enough to know that Paul was referring to pagan rituals?
Since you seem fond of tossing aside scripture that only suits your purposes, have you perhaps forgotten the promise God made to Hagar in your rants about false prophets and such?
As for beheadings and acts of cruelty, care to explore what happened during the Crusades? Or how about the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition? Or the Salem Witch Trials? Or the massacre of Native Americans? Or the KKK's cruelty to African Americans, simply because they believed that "white was right" when it came to moral superiority before God?
Perhaps it would be best to remove the mote in thine own eye first. Which leads me to one more piece of scripture that may be worth remembering "Judge not lest ye be judged."
-
Revelations is a book in its own right with 20 chapters, the section of revelations you've quoted from is a future event so no parallel can be drawn. It is in reference to the beast but not in reference to the false prophet.
The beast's use many tools to deceive, and the false prophet is one of them, but the reference to the false prophets doesn't start until after chapter 13.
You are making the mistake of think chapter 13 is talking about the false prophet, but it isn't
There is no mention in the Quran of a mark on the right hand or of a mark having any relation to buying or selling things or of there being a numerical value equal to 666.
No one said this should be mentioned in the quran to make the connection. The connection is the FALSE prophet who was deceived by the beast (trickster spirit) of Satan. Plus the buying and selling is a future event that hasn't happened yet.
You are making the mistake of thinking the beasts only comes via the false prophet. Where as the false prophet is just one of the tools the second beast, not the first beast.
As for the babbling you mentioned earlier, are you Jewish? If not, then you are a Gentile.
No.. the Gentiles referred to in the New Testament are the Arabs, descendents of Ishmael as can be seen in the prophecy about the building of the third temple on the temple mound, after the third temple is built (future event) the court yard will be given to the Gentiles (Arab Muslims)
Rev 112 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles
At the moment the Muslims hold the temple mound, but after the 3rd Jewish temple is built on it, the Muslims will be forced to share it with the Jews and will still be allowed a section of it for their Mosque.
Or do you not repeat The Lord's Prayer or the Twenty-Third Psalm in the same way Muslims recite passages from The Quran? Have you not studied the Bible enough to know that Paul was referring to pagan rituals?
The Lord pray was an Example of HOW to pray, not what to say in the prayer. The Lords prayer was given when one of the disciples asked Jesus to teach the HOW to prayer. The question asked by the disciple wasnt teach us what to say
Psalms 23 is chapter 23 of psalms, it is not a prayer. When you read or recite verses out of the quran you don't call it praying, do you.
btw paul has nothing to do with psalms. Psalms is in the OT.
have you perhaps forgotten the promise God made to Hagar in your rants about false prophets and such?
The promise made in reference to Ishmael was that he would be the father a mighty nation, i.e the Arab Nation. This prophecy has already come true and proves the accuracy of the prophecies in the bible.
The prophecy also said he (meaning him and the Arab Nation) would be wild and against every man
Gen 1612 "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence, of all his brethren."
This prophecy is also fore filled, the hand of the Arabs (ie. the founding Nation of Islam) are against everyone (i.e Christians, Jews, Hindus etc etc) and everyone is against them..
Every prophecy in the bible is extremely accurate.
Now I noticed you avoided answering the question I posted. How can Muslims be sure that the spirit that gave the revelations to Muhammad was in fact Gabriel and from God.
A trickster spirit can say he is anyone. But the Bible gives clear guild lines in how to test a spirit if they are from God and also how to test a prophet.
All those verses about how to test the spirit and test the prophet have been conveniently left out of the quran. Apparently Muhammad didn't want any of his followers getting any ideas
-
Does that mean you are unable to answer the question.
There are many ways you could answer the question
1.. Since only God knows the Beginning from the End, you could point to all the hundreds of prophecies in the quran (The Bible has thousands, but to make it easy for you we'll cut it back to a few hundred)
2.. You could list all the verses in the quran that Details how to tell whether a prophet is from God or a false prophet
3.. You can list all the verses in the quran that tell how to test a spirit if they are from God or a trickster sprit
- You can list all the verses that give Gods personal Name "yehewel" (its list over 6000 times in the scripture, so surely it must had made it into the quran), unless the quran is the words of a false prophet in which case the personal name wont be used.
5.. Or if you find those details are missing from the quran, you could list them from the scripture, and give the attributes of muhammad and the said Gabriel that fore fill those requirements.
Its an easy question, but all here are struggling to answer it.
How do you know muhammad was a prophet of God and not a false Prophet who was deceived by a trickster spirit.
-
There is only one passage from The Quran that is needed to answer your question about tests for false prophets
3340 Muhammad is not the father of any of you men. He is a messenger of God and the last of the prophets. God knows and is aware of all things.
No test is needed. Jesus warned of false prophets, because he wasn't the last of God's prophets.
Why do we accept that Mohammed was?
The whole of The Quran answers that question, and here we have reached an impasse. You are judging us by inaccurate and incomplete information, which we believe The Quran corrected and set right. Therefore, it makes no sense to explain our faith by your standards.1096 You have your religion; I have my religion.
Peace.
-
.3340 Muhammad is not the father of any of you men. He is a messenger of God and the last of the prophets. God knows and is aware of all things.
Thank you for attempting to answer part of the question I asked, at least you gave it a try..
I know Muhammad declared himself to be a prophet.... it's very convenient to declare yourself a prophet, and leave out every verse from the scripture that details how to test for a false prophet and also how to test for a spirit that is not from God.
IF Muhammad said "I'm a prophet and here is the proof", and that proof was consistent with all previous parts of the scripture, than he could leave out such verses.
But he gave no such proof. He just said he was the messenger and you must blindly take his word for it.
If he was a prophet, what was he so afraid of, that he left out such information.
No test is needed. Jesus warned of false prophets, because he wasn't the last of God's prophets.
That doesn't make sense, are you saying there were many false prophets between Jesus and Muhammad.
Mat 715 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 2411 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 2424 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
To say that Muhammad was a prophet because he told you he was is not an answer
You also didn't answer my question my other question and that is
How do you know the spirit that revealed the revelations to Muhammad was a spirit from God and not a trickster sprit pretending to be Gabriel
1Jo 41 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
-
No... muhammad said he received the revelations from gabriel..
Adam spoke directly with God
Jesus spoke directly with God
Moses spoke Directly with God
Abraham Spoke Directly with God
etc ectMuhammad (according to him) spoke to a spirit, who called himself gabriel and said he was from God.
Two big problems with this
1.. You only have muhammads word that Gabriel spoke to him.
2.. Even if a spirit who called himself Gabreil spoke to muhammad, you have no way of knowing that it was Gabriel and not a trickster spirit.
You are still avoiding the question.
The scripture has many verses that talk about trickster spirits
1Jo 41 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
And it gives details how to test a spirit to determine if it is in fact from God
The scripture also has many verses that talk about false prophet and also gives details how to test a prophet if in fact they are from God
Mat 715 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 2411 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
According to you and others, Muhammad was the Last prophet. If Muhammad was the last prophet, it seems God didn't think his mission was important enough to talk directly with him, instead of via Gabriel.
-
2 Imagined judgement day interrogations from God
-
God what ! you believed in a guy who DIDNT speak to me directly ? What about the book I sent ? You didn't believe in it because another book came EARLIER to it ? What about even earlier books ? Do you know about his history ? How many wives did he have ? How old was aisha ?
-
God were you a decent human being ? did you stand up for justice? were you kind to your parents? Did you liberate humanity from oppression? Were you humble? Did you study signs in ur horizon and urself in order to see the truth?
which of these interrogations are most likely ?
If you say '2', then you will be echoing precisely the Quranic philosophy. The Quran isn't about these artificially created nonsense about which prophet is better and so on. This isn't WWF for religious nuts where you'll match Hulk Hogan against Randy Macho Man Savage. This is about YOU. YOUR personal exploration and development.
thanks and peace.
-
-
No... muhammad said he received the revelations from gabriel..
Adam spoke directly with God
Jesus spoke directly with God
Moses spoke Directly with God
Abraham Spoke Directly with God
etc ectMuhammad (according to him) spoke to a spirit, who called himself gabriel and said he was from God.
Were you a direct witness to what happened above? Isn't Gabriel mentioned in your bibles? Perhaps you can answer from your own books as to who was Gabriel and his purpose?
A "trickster" would not talk about believing in ONE GOD, the Al-mighty, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and everything within and beyond, to live a spiritual and righteous life, now would he???
The bible is NOT God's words, but heresies written by John, Paul, Mathew, Luke and the like, very similar to Talmud and Ahadiths written by many men, long after the deaths of their respective prophets (the he-said/she-said dogmas). The original Torah and Gospel doesn't exist, but the Quran does, and that speaks volumes.
You are at your own liberty to refute your own corrupt bibles as in
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3661 -
It seems this is a difficult question for everone here. So far all posts have been the same with avoiding or unable to answer the question.
It's a straight forward question in two parts
1.. How do you know the spirit who spoke to Mihammad was in fact a spirit from God. What tests have you been told about to determine whether a spirir is or is not from God
2.. How do you know muhammad was a TRUE prophet and not someone who just declared himself to be a Prophet. What tests have you been told about in the Quran to determine a True Prophet of God, from a False prophet.
Why is it such a difficult to answer.
Why not just list all the hundreds of prophecies in the quran, that prove it is from God, since ONLY God knows the beginning from the ends. And no twickster spirit knows this information
Why not state verses from the Quran where Muhammad give detailed proof that he is from God
Why not list the thousands of times that God s personal name is mensioned in the Quran.
There are many ways this question can be answered without the constent avoidance.
-
It seems this is a difficult question for everone here. So far all posts have been the same with avoiding or unable to answer the question.
This is because you are avoiding or unable to grasp the answers given forth.
It's a straight forward question in two parts
It's a straight forward answer in one part
-
How do you know the spirit who spoke to Mihammad was in fact a spirit from God. What tests have you been told about to determine whether a spirir is or is not from God
-
How do you know muhammad was a TRUE prophet and not someone who just declared himself to be a Prophet. What tests have you been told about in the Quran to determine a True Prophet of God, from a False prophet.
The answer to your two parts relates in one What the Quran reveals, that is, its MESSAGE, cannot be anything other than the spirit of God. The TEST is in reading, understanding and contemplating on its MESSAGE. As I mentioned earlier
Have you noticed the "tricksters" of bible, not one but many. And the same applies to talmud and ahadiths. See the difference???
Why is it such a difficult to answer.
Simply because it is such a difficult to make you understand the answer.
Why not just list all the hundreds of prophecies in the quran, that prove it is from God, since ONLY God knows the beginning from the ends. And no twickster spirit knows this information.
Why not state verses from the Quran where Muhammad give detailed proof that he is from God.
That would be the entire Quran.
Why not list the thousands of times that God s personal name is mensioned in the Quran.
God doesn't have different personal names to suit various cults.
-