salat = meeting to administrate the islamic state

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

MEDITATION means to contemplate, ponder, reflect, think deeply, weigh-in mentally, mode of trance, mental concentration.

COMMITMENT means a pledge or promise to do something, dedication to a course of action, engagement, obligation, duty, involvement, undertaking liability, entrust, to do or perpetrate, to engage and bind.

PROCESS means a procedure, course, method, instruction, application, illustration of how to.

PROCESS OF MEDITATION means a course, method or procedure in order to contemplate, ponder, reflect, etc. An application to think deeply and to concentrate.

Given the above definitions, salaat cannot possibly mean, simply process. There is no specific method or course in order to meditate mentioned in Quran. Besides, there are several ways/methods/techniques of meditation, hence the ?plurality? (processes of meditation). The word meditation in itself is mentioned in the Quran to mean ponder, reflect, contemplate (see Marie?s post).

(7531) So he did not give charity nor did he process.

This not only sounds hilarious but ludicrous. A stranger would go berserk about what ?process? is this verse talking about and going head-over-heels trying to find the ?process/method of meditation? in the Quran.

On the contrary, let me ask you 3 questions pertaining to that verse

Who is ?he? mentioned in that verse?
What is meant by ?charity? in that verse.
Out of many translations below, which one do you proclaim or accept to be the correct one or none at all.

M. Asad
for he did not accept the truth, nor did he pray,

R. Khalifa
For he observed neither the charity, nor the contact prayers.

Mohsin Khan
So he neither believed nor prayed!

Ahmed Ali
For he neither believed nor prayed,

M. A. Qadri
Neither did he believe it to be true, nor did he offer the prayer.

A. J. Arberry
For he confirmed it not, and did not pray.

Muhammad Sarwar
The human being does not want to believe the Truth, nor does he want to pray.

Sher Ali
For, he neither accepted the Truth nor observed Prayer;

A.M. Daryabadi
He neither believed nor prayed,

Abdul Mannan
For this person neither accepted the truth nor offered Prayer.

E.H. Palmer
For he did not believe and did not pray;

G.A. Parwez
Tell the person who does not testify to Our Law of Mukafat; who does not take the straight path;

Shabbir Ahmed & Liaqat Ali
For he neither stood by the Truth, nor did he follow it.

M.A. Khan
But he did not confirm, nor prayed;

Mohammad Ahmed & Samira
So he did not give charity nor he prayed.

Muhammad Ali
So he accepted not the truth nor prayed.

Progressive Muslims
For he did not believe nor support.

YUSUFALI
So he gave nothing in charity, nor did he pray!

PICKTHAL
For he neither trusted, nor prayed.

SHAKIR
So he did not accept the truth, nor did he pray,

Although there are abundance of verses related to our commitments/obligations, a few such verses, as examples, that begs your attention to commitments/obligations/duites (emphasis on underlined)

The One who made the earth habitable for you, and the sky a structure. He sends down from the sky water, to produce all kinds of fruits for your sustenance. You shall not set up idols to rival GOD, now that you know.
You shall believe in what I have revealed herein, confirming what you have; do not be the first to reject it. Do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price, and observe Me.
Do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor shall you conceal the truth, knowingly.
We made a covenant with the Children of Israel "You shall not serve except GOD. You shall honor your parents and regard the relatives, the orphans, and the poor. You shall treat the people amicably. You shall observe your obligations/commitments (Salat) and purify (Zakat) them". But you turned away, except a few of you, and you became averse.
We made a covenant with you, that you shall not shed your blood, nor shall you evict each other from your homes. You agreed and bore witness.
Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.
We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.
O people, eat from the earth's products all that is lawful and good, and do not follow the steps of Satan; he is your most ardent enemy.
He only prohibits for you the eating of animals that die of themselves (without human interference), blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. If one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or deliberate, he incurs no sin. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they uphold these obligations (Salat) and keep them pure (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.
O you who believe, equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the female for the female. If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order, and an equitable compensation shall be paid. This is an alleviation from your Lord and mercy. Anyone who transgresses beyond this incurs a painful retribution.
It is decreed that when death approaches, you shall write a will for the benefit of the parents and relatives, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.

There is absolutely NO ?process or processes? NOR ?process of meditation? involved in dealing with such and abundance of other basic obligations/duties/commitments throughout the Quran and NEITHER does such obligations have anything to do with dusk and/or dawn. Sallaa and Zakaa are mostly found mentioned together. This simply means to uphold your commitments/obligations/duties (sallaa) as commanded in the Quran (examples underlined above) and to keep them pure (zakaa).

As I mentioned earlier It is our commitment/obligation/duty to understand and act upon all fundamental underlying principles mentioned in the Quran, in order to live a basic, simple and a happy life. This commitment/obligation/duty to do just that is ?salaat?.

God bless.

marie

Peace Kyle,

We must learn to put ourselves into Trance through meditation in order to reprogram our Minds/SPirits(nafs). This is the PROCESS how we purify the Nafs.

You always repeat the same thing but you don't bring one verse to support your view from the Reading. Salat is explained and detailed in the light of the Reading but I cannot force you to see it because you already choose your own definition.

Peace

TheNabi

Salaam,

I believe Kyle mentioned he will have an article detailing his view in due time. I believe he has one or two older articles up already on the site. I'm sure he has referrence to his claims.

Joe

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Joe and all,

Thanks for the reminder.

Here is an old article I wrote that should help anyone interested see more where I am coming form.

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1174

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

All you did was state that my understanding was foolish. You still have not addressed why the verse has "charity" NOR "salaat". This discredits the argument of "commitment" because it is saying that salaat and charity are two different concepts by putting "NOR".

unknownuser

Peace be upon you JM,

No, although we are turning to the God through the process(salaat) of meditation. We are turning towards the qibla(focus) so that we can recieve wisdom from the God.

What does it mean, in concrete terms?

We are dealing with mental concepts, not physical, but the results can be seen concretely. We have to realize that the God speaks the truth when He states that He does not change th econdition of a people until they change what is in thier MINDS/SPIRIT(nafs). This is a change within, so do not look for "concreteness".

So HOW do we change what is within? By leaqrning the truth and PROGRAMMING our MINDS/SPIRITS through the process(salaat) given to us by the God.

Is it physical, or symbolic ?

It is meta-physical. The point of focus(qibla), the focus that the God says we should ALWAYS FACE, cannot be physical or we would have to be facing a concrete building right now. To "face" the qibla means to take on the characteristics of the focus(qibla). What is the focus? The "masjid al haram" or "The place of hearing and obeying the restrictions", which we have learned is a place WITHIN, this is how th erejectors are forbidden, because it is a mental level that their "veils" prevent them from reaching.

Could you quote the verse when you found this info ?

Ayman has a good article on Free Minds site called "whats in a name" which can help you with this.

I find it in the God's Kitaab(the universe). I have studied meditation from the perspective of those before us and thier metaphors even match up, specifically the "medi=middle" which WUSTA refers to, and the merging of day and night, etc.

JM
Where can I read this kitaab ?

Everywhere you look, from the horizons to within our Spirit(nafs)

JM
And find in it that we need to get into TRANCE for salat ?

You have to study Trance, just like marketing advertisers do which is why MILLIONS of dollars are spent on commercials and advertising, the "process" WORKS!

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

Salat is explained and detailed in the light of the Reading but I cannot force you to see it because you already choose your own definition

What is your view? Do you also hold "commitment(singular)" as your understanding?

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

All you did was state that my understanding was foolish. You still have not addressed why the verse has "charity" NOR "salaat". This discredits the argument of "commitment" because it is saying that salaat and charity are two different concepts by putting "NOR".

O man, O man, my entire previous post just flew over cuckoo's nest.

"Charity and commitment" are discredited but "charity and process" seems credible to you without any proper explanation whatsoever AS PER THE QURANIC VERSES? What a bummer! Talk about short cuts and foolish understandings.

Kyle, you can meditate during dusk and dawn and daydream inbetween all you want, I shall stick to the understanding of salaat to mean commitments/obligation/duties as clearly ordained on us. And ah yes, I do meditate every now and then and not specific to dawns and dusks, which by the way, is also an obligation.

Have a cheerful day and GOD bless.

marie

Peace Kyle,

Peace be upon you Marie,

Salat is explained and detailed in the light of the Reading but I cannot force you to see it because you already choose your own definition

What is your view? Do you also hold "commitment(singular)" as your understanding?

My view is simple, one of the several meanings of the verb salla is to follow closely. In the light of the Reading, salat is due to the God but through what? Through His message (for example) which is a guide for those who choose to follow the divine laws.

Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the salat; for the salat prohibits evil and vice, and the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.

The goal of salat is to serve only the God and to leave what the ancestors served.
1187. They said ?O Shu?ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? You are the compassionate, the sane!?

Peace

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

O man, O man, my entire previous post just flew over cuckoo's nest.

Why do you continue with insults instead of sticking to the debate?

"Charity and commitment" are discredited but "charity and process" seems credible to you without any proper explanation whatsoever AS PER THE QURANIC VERSES? What a bummer! Talk about short cuts and foolish understandings.

No, you are not understanding the point. My position does not make salaat= to commitments, therefore you can have "charity" and another form of commitment which is the process(salaat) in the same verse being spoken of as seperate concepts by the word "NOR". But your position does not fit that, because you state that salaat is referring to the "commitments", so it would be a redundant statement to say "charity" NOR "salaat".

Kyle, you can meditate during dusk and dawn and daydream inbetween all you want, I shall stick to the understanding of salaat to mean commitments/obligation/duties as clearly ordained on us.

Your saying so does not make it true, it requires proof, which is not being given.

And ah yes, I do meditate every now and then and not specific to dawns and dusks, which by the way, is also an obligation.

Thats good, do you use your imagination while in trance to change your conditionings, or are you just doing it to relax?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

Idolfree1
What is your view? Do you also hold "commitment(singular)" as your understanding?

Marie
My view is simple, one of the several meanings of the verb salla is to follow closely.

I agree, but we must "climb the mount" , ascend above this low level so we can enter the place of hearing and obeying the God's restrictions(masjid al haraam), which is our point of focus, and there is a process given to us that we must maintain in order to do so.

In the light of the Reading, salat is due to the God but through what? Through His message (for example) which is a guide for those who choose to follow the divine laws.

Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the salat; for the salat prohibits evil and vice, and the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.

We are to take what is INSPIRED to us of the Universal Law(kitaab) and maintain the process(meditation) that allows us to get this Inspiration and program our Nafs.

The goal of salat is to serve only the God and to leave what the ancestors served.
1187. They said ?O Shu?ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? You are the compassionate, the sane!?

What do you translate salaat as in the above verse?

I maintain PROCESS, it was Shuibs process to meditate, not to follow fathers or be fooolish with money.

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

O man, O man, my entire previous post just flew over cuckoo's nest.

Why do you continue with insults instead of sticking to the debate?

Kyle, it is you who misunderstood what is meant by ?flew over cuckoo?s nest? and took upon yourself as an insult. I was referring to my post which you totally disregarded/ignored, meaning you didn?t pay any heed. This clearly shows your inability to understand the message whilst picking on words, like you do with verses.

"Charity and commitment" are discredited but "charity and process" seems credible to you without any proper explanation whatsoever AS PER THE QURANIC VERSES? What a bummer! Talk about short cuts and foolish understandings.

No, you are not understanding the point. My position does not make salaat= to commitments, therefore you can have "charity" and another form of commitment which is the process(salaat) in the same verse being spoken of as seperate concepts by the word "NOR". But your position does not fit that, because you state that salaat is referring to the "commitments", so it would be a redundant statement to say "charity" NOR "salaat".

Salaat=commitment is not redundant, but your understanding of it. Repetitiously, you keep on bragging about YOUR POINT without presenting any explanation whatsoever AS PER THE QURANIC VERSES IN ITS ENTIRETY. In other words, you don't seem to understand the verses's or passage's MESSAGE but instead frivously pick-and-choose single words or half sentences here and there, and then start influxing scientific theories to bring about a flowery discourse. If you have strongly dug-a-hole about salaat being a ?process?, then please present your points with at least some authority and dignity by virtue of Quranic injunctions/context. I have mentioned this a few times but you simply don?t get it?

Kyle, you can meditate during dusk and dawn and daydream inbetween all you want, I shall stick to the understanding of salaat to mean commitments/obligation/duties as clearly ordained on us.

Your saying so does not make it true, it requires proof, which is not being given.

The verses of the Quran speaks for itself. I presented some verses earlier in my post above, as examples, where commitments/obligations/duties are ordained (underlined). My PROOFS lies within the Quran, yours don't. You have given NO PROOFS NOR presented a coherent understanding of the word salaat as of yet but rather self-centered on words. Now be a good boy and explain/elaborate your chosen words and half-sentences relating to the MESSAGE those words speak of AS PER THE QURAN. It is as simple as that. Here, let me quote my previous post again for your benefit and hope this time it doesn?t fly by you.

MEDITATION means to contemplate, ponder, reflect, think deeply, weigh-in mentally, mode of trance, mental concentration.

COMMITMENT means a pledge or promise to do something, dedication to a course of action, engagement, obligation, duty, involvement, undertaking liability, entrust, to do or perpetrate, to engage and bind.

PROCESS means a procedure, course, method, instruction, application, illustration of how to.

PROCESS OF MEDITATION means a course, method or procedure in order to contemplate, ponder, reflect, etc. An application to think deeply and to concentrate.

Given the above definitions, salaat cannot possibly mean, simply process. There is no specific method or course in order to meditate mentioned in Quran. Besides, there are several ways/methods/techniques of meditation, hence the ?plurality? (processes of meditation). The word meditation in itself is mentioned in the Quran to mean ponder, reflect, contemplate (see Marie?s post).
Quote
(7531) So he did not give charity nor did he process.

This not only sounds hilarious but ludicrous. A stranger would go berserk about what ?process? is this verse talking about and going head-over-heels trying to find the ?process/method of meditation? in the Quran.

On the contrary, let me ask you 3 questions pertaining to that verse

Who is ?he? mentioned in that verse?
What is meant by ?charity? in that verse.
Out of many translations below, which one do you proclaim or accept to be the correct one or none at all.

M. Asad
for he did not accept the truth, nor did he pray,

R. Khalifa
For he observed neither the charity, nor the contact prayers.

Mohsin Khan
So he neither believed nor prayed!

Ahmed Ali
For he neither believed nor prayed,

M. A. Qadri
Neither did he believe it to be true, nor did he offer the prayer.

A. J. Arberry
For he confirmed it not, and did not pray.

Muhammad Sarwar
The human being does not want to believe the Truth, nor does he want to pray.

Sher Ali
For, he neither accepted the Truth nor observed Prayer;

A.M. Daryabadi
He neither believed nor prayed,

Abdul Mannan
For this person neither accepted the truth nor offered Prayer.

E.H. Palmer
For he did not believe and did not pray;

G.A. Parwez
Tell the person who does not testify to Our Law of Mukafat; who does not take the straight path;

Shabbir Ahmed & Liaqat Ali
For he neither stood by the Truth, nor did he follow it.

M.A. Khan
But he did not confirm, nor prayed;

Mohammad Ahmed & Samira
So he did not give charity nor he prayed.

Muhammad Ali
So he accepted not the truth nor prayed.

Progressive Muslims
For he did not believe nor support.

YUSUFALI
So he gave nothing in charity, nor did he pray!

PICKTHAL
For he neither trusted, nor prayed.

SHAKIR
So he did not accept the truth, nor did he pray,

Although there are abundance of verses related to our commitments/obligations, a few such verses, as examples, that begs your attention to commitments/obligations/duites (emphasis on underlined)

The One who made the earth habitable for you, and the sky a structure. He sends down from the sky water, to produce all kinds of fruits for your sustenance. You shall not set up idols to rival GOD, now that you know.
You shall believe in what I have revealed herein, confirming what you have; do not be the first to reject it. Do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price, and observe Me.
Do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor shall you conceal the truth, knowingly.
We made a covenant with the Children of Israel "You shall not serve except GOD. You shall honor your parents and regard the relatives, the orphans, and the poor. You shall treat the people amicably. You shall observe your obligations/commitments (Salat) and purify (Zakat) them". But you turned away, except a few of you, and you became averse.
We made a covenant with you, that you shall not shed your blood, nor shall you evict each other from your homes. You agreed and bore witness.
Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.
We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.
O people, eat from the earth's products all that is lawful and good, and do not follow the steps of Satan; he is your most ardent enemy.
He only prohibits for you the eating of animals that die of themselves (without human interference), blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. If one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or deliberate, he incurs no sin. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they uphold these obligations (Salat) and keep them pure (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.
O you who believe, equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the female for the female. If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order, and an equitable compensation shall be paid. This is an alleviation from your Lord and mercy. Anyone who transgresses beyond this incurs a painful retribution.
It is decreed that when death approaches, you shall write a will for the benefit of the parents and relatives, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.

There is absolutely NO ?process or processes? NOR ?process of meditation? involved in dealing with such and abundance of other basic obligations/duties/commitments throughout the Quran and NEITHER does such obligations have anything to do with dusk and/or dawn. Sallaa and Zakaa are mostly found mentioned together. This simply means to uphold your commitments/obligations/duties (sallaa) as commanded in the Quran (examples underlined above) and to keep them pure (zakaa).

As I mentioned earlier It is our commitment/obligation/duty to understand and act upon all fundamental underlying principles mentioned in the Quran, in order to live a basic, simple and a happy life. This commitment/obligation/duty to do just that is ?salaat?.

Now let me also quote some verses where meditation is applied, in case it flies by you again (Marie's post)

The meditation (attafakkur, attadabbur) in the light of the Reading

Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder/meditate in the creation of the heavens and the Earth ?Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!?
Allatheena yathkuroona Allahaqiyaman waquAAoodan waAAala junoobihim wayatafakkaroona fee khalqi alssamawati waal-ardi rabbana ma khalaqta hatha batilan subhanakafaqina AAathaba alnnari
Do they not reflect/meditate on the Reading? If it was from any other than God they would have found it very different.
Afala yatadabbaroona alqur-ana walaw kana min AAindi ghayri Allahi lawajadoo feehiikhtilafan katheeran
Did they not reflect/meditate upon themselves? God did not create the heavens and the Earth and what is between them except by truth and an appointed term. But most of the people are in denial regarding their meeting with their Lord.
Awa lam yatafakkaroo fee anfusihim makhalaqa Allahu alssamawati waal-ardawama baynahuma illa bialhaqqiwaajalin musamman wa-inna katheeran mina alnnasibiliqa-i rabbihim lakafiroona
1. Say ?I advise you to do one thing that you stand to God, in pairs or as individuals, then reflect/meditate. There is no madness in your friend, he is only a warner to you in the face of a severe retribution.?
  Qul innama aAAithukumbiwahidatin an taqoomoo lillahi mathna wafurada thumma tatafakkaroo ma bisahibikum min jinnatin inhuwa illa natheerun lakum bayna yaday AAathabinshadeedin
A Scripture/book that We have sent down to you, that is blessed, so that they may reflect/meditate upon its verses, and so that those with intelligence will take heed.
Kitabun anzalnahu ilayka mubarakun liyaddabbaroo ayatihi waliyatathakkara olooal-albabi

Now, do you understand the clear differences between commitment/obligation/duty and to ponder/reflect/meditate as illustrated by examples of verses above, or are you going to vehemently insist to make all such verses deem unfit as per your own wishy-washy ideas.

And ah yes, I do meditate every now and then and not specific to dawns and dusks, which by the way, is also an obligation.

Thats good, do you use your imagination while in trance to change your conditionings, or are you just doing it to relax?

Whatever I imagine/mediate on and for whatever reasons, has nothing to do with salaat, especially nothing to do with dawn and dusk. How many times must I repeat myself whilst detailing the reasons (check previous posts).

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

The goal of salat is to serve only the God and to leave what the ancestors served.
1187. They said ?O Shu?ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? You are the compassionate, the sane!?

I maintain PROCESS, it was Shuibs process to meditate, not to follow fathers or be fooolish with money.

That was not Shuaib's "process to mediate" but his demonstration and perseverance to commit to GOD's commands as guidance to be righteous. The people of Shuaib disregarded what Shuaib was committed/obligated to, and hence they rejected him, so that they can continue to do what their fathers did, i.e. disregard the obligations and duties ordained by GOD. Read the entire passage from 1184 to 1195. Where are you Kyle??? I am sorry to say this but are so dense in your understanding that you can't contemplate on simple verses and passages.

marie

Peace Kyle,

Idolfree1
What is your view? Do you also hold "commitment(singular)" as your understanding?

Marie
My view is simple, one of the several meanings of the verb salla is to follow closely.

I agree, but we must "climb the mount" , ascend above this low level so we can enter the place of hearing and obeying the God's restrictions(masjid al haraam), which is our point of focus, and there is a process given to us that we must maintain in order to do so.

The Reading is clear and simple, sometimes you wish to deepen certain concepts that you pass next to the meaning given in the Reading.

As for salat, sujud is also simple to grasp in the light of the Reading

And to God submit (yasjudu) all those in the heavens and all those on the Earth, from the creatures as well as the Angels, and they are not arrogant.
They fear their Lord from above them, and they do what they are commanded.
And when the Reading is being related to them, they do not prostrate (la yasjudoona).

Sujood is to do what we are commanded. In order to do it, read this Reading, you have no need to get into Trance.

Idem for almasjid alharam, it is well detailed through the Reading.

We must learn to put ourselves into Trance through meditation in order to reprogram our Minds/SPirits(nafs). This is the PROCESS how we purify the Nafs.

Do you think that the God forgot to specify that salat is the process of getting into a TRANCE.
If the God explains it of this manner and if you don't mind, please do quote the verses which refers to this theory?

In the light of the Reading, salat is due to the God but through what? Through His message (for example) which is a guide for those who choose to follow the divine laws.

Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the salat; for the salat prohibits evil and vice, and the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.

We are to take what is INSPIRED to us of the Universal Law(kitaab) and maintain the process(meditation) that allows us to get this Inspiration and program our Nafs.

How do you know that what is inspired to you is from the God or the universal law or only from your desire.

The goal of salat is to serve only the God and to leave what the ancestors served.
1187. They said ?O Shu?ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? You are the compassionate, the sane!?

What do you translate salaat as in the above verse?

As stated by Danish and in the light of the Reading, Salat means to commit to GOD's commands. Our salat is our duties; all what we are commanded and prohibited to do.

I maintain PROCESS, it was Shuibs process to meditate, not to follow fathers or be fooolish with money.

ShuAAab follow closely (salat) the God through what is inspired to him i.e. the divine message like this Reading. He serve only the God.
His people follow what the ancestors served instead of the God's system.

Peace

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Think of how people "WILL" to do right, lets say like stop smoking, but they keep right on smoking, or they want to excercise more because they know it is good for them, but they dont go to th egym, etc.

There is more to it than just "maintining commitments", there is a PROCESS here which allows the part of us that WILLS a thing to "wed" with the part of us that carries out a thing.

A mere WISHING for something is not good enough.

Danish, the statement of "now be a good boy" indicates for me that we must end our discussion. I found it hard not to reply in a disrespefctful manner, so lets end it.

Marie, I will wait until I am finish gathering the info for my article then we can discuss further.

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

Think of how people "WILL" to do right, lets say like stop smoking, but they keep right on smoking, or they want to excercise more because they know it is good for them, but they dont go to th egym, etc.

There is more to it than just "maintining commitments", there is a PROCESS here which allows the part of us that WILLS a thing to "wed" with the part of us that carries out a thing.

Whatever you're suggesting/implying above has nothing to do with "process" at dawn and dusk NOR the word salaat. Enough explanations and PROOFS from within Quran has been stated.

A mere WISHING for something is not good enough.

That's a good one and sure reflects on you when you present wishy-washy scenarios without any Quranic support and proper explanatin.

Danish, the statement of "now be a good boy" indicates for me that we must end our discussion. I found it hard not to reply in a disrespefctful manner, so lets end it.

Once again, this shows your inability to comprehend, present supportive and coherent views, disregarding and not reflecting upon Quranic Message, not paying any heed on several posts, and finally chickening-out on something like "now be a good boy". Can't take the heat, huh? wink

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

Can't take the heat, huh?

Just following the COVENANT not to argue(jidala) in the debate(hajja).

Peace to you.

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

Can't take the heat, huh?

Just following the COVENANT not to argue(jidala) in the debate(hajja).

Peace to you.

This is exactly what you do when you fail to explain and support yourself. Just because I don't agree with your ideas, doesn't mean I have been arguing all along, and do note vice-versa.

Although, the topic of salaat has been discussed at length many times before, I would sincerely like other forum members to pitch in their views. Better yet, why not take a poll, with or without posts. I'm sure people here would give their honest views and not take sides. Would that be fair to you Kyle or would you rather have your way?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

You are free to do whatever you please to do, I have simply ended my debate with you in favor of Peace. While I am sure you still see "commitment" I see "process", but we cannot move further due to your inability to stick to the debate, but instead insult. I dont have time for it and the instruction is that there is no arguing in the debate. You can call it being chicken or whatever else you can come up with. I certainly will not refrain from discussing it further, as salaat is my favorite topic, but our discussion is through.

Not sure what effect a "poll" will have on the truth of a matter.

brirob

Peace, all...
One of the "tricks" of sectarian Islam is that only in Arabic can the quran be fully appreciated. It seems that this is based on the fact that not all arabic words have a directly-correlating english word. This definately seems to be the case with "salat."
Perhaps this is why salat's definition is so complicated. Surely when GOD revealed the quran, the word was a common one, as it is used in various forms well over 75 times throughout. just as the word that "permits" them to beat their wives! just like the moon/month word. Just because the sectarians say that some words do not have an english equivalent does not mean that it is NOT TRUE. If they were wrong about everything in life, they'd all be dead, having eaten poison, or worse.
Partial definitions, such as connecting, following closely, PRAYER, etc, probably are in fact part of this non-english word's meaning...prayer emphasized because it probably was added as a possible meaning when no english word was found to give justice...but that more than likely meant something else to pagan nomads of long ago.
I cannot criticize anyone for their attempt at understanding. We know that only GOD truly knows what was meant, and we're all trying.
Myself, I cannot give a definition. I feel most at peace, like I've at least touched on the truth, when I force myself up early to read the quran & pray to GOD without distractions. Same for evening, especially since i get a sense of guilt or "unpeace...non-peace" when i choose to be distracted by worldly things & just say a li'l prayer from my pillow. So, one could say my approach to understanding is through "feeling".
The birds, who are a community like us, know their salat. I get much satisfaction & what feels like confirmation when i'm reading and the birds' loud chirping at dawn is all i hear.

Peace,
brian