salat = meeting to administrate the islamic state

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

What is the commitment we must maintain?

EVERYTHING that you do on a daily basis throughtout your lifetime as per the commands, guidelines and fundamental principles of living a righteous life outlined by contextual understanding of the veses that contain the word "salat". Hope you got my drift.

"EVERYTHING" would be plural, not singular.

EVERYTHING as a "Whole" is singlar, not plural. Hence, whatever you do as a WHOLE falls under the category of "salaat".

That explanation does not fit the verses, for example, we are to get two witnesses for a will after they "salaat", how does your idea of "everything" and "whole" fit that verse?

Neither does meditation fit into the verses, certainly not. ?everything? as (not and) a ?whole? is emphasized towards commitments/obligations/duties laiden throughout the Quran as commands for any individual to live a sincere, humble, peaceful and righteous life, such as being truthful, for example. One doesn?t need meditation to speak the truth specific to dawn and dusk, but it is our obligation, our duty, as a WHOLE, in EVERYTHING we do at ANYTIME, ANYWHERE to speak the truth. This is very basic and natural.

2282 O you who believe, when you transact a loan for any period, you shall write it down. An impartial scribe shall do the writing. No scribe shall refuse to perform this service, according to GOD's teachings. He shall write, while the debtor dictates the terms. He shall observe GOD his Lord and never cheat. If the debtor is mentally incapable, or helpless, or cannot dictate, his guardian shall dictate equitably. Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased, the other will remind her. It is the obligation of the witnesses to testify when called upon to do so. Do not tire of writing the details, no matter how long, including the time of repayment. This is equitable in the sight of GOD, assures better witnessing, and eliminates any doubts you may have. Business transactions that you execute on the spot need not be recorded, but have them witnessed. No scribe or witness shall be harmed on account of his services. If you harm them, it would be wickedness on your part. You shall observe GOD, and GOD will teach you. GOD is Omniscient.

5106 O you who believe, witnessing a will when one of you is dying shall be done by two equitable people among you. If you are traveling, then two others may do the witnessing. After observing the obligations (Salat), let the witnesses swear by GOD, to alleviate your doubts "We will not use this to attain personal gains, even if the testator is related to us. Nor will we conceal GOD's testimony. Otherwise, we would be sinners."

Read the above verses in its entirety, it gives you the basic guidelines of a WILL and TRANSACTIONS. This is nothing else but an obligation, a commitment to follow what it says and this is but NATURAL for all to do at anytime, anywhere and NOT specific to dawn and/or dusk. The word ?salaat? in 5106 has absolutely nothing to do with meditation but emphasizes on upholding your obligations as stated, such as, writing a Will, business transactions, testimonies, witnesses, etc., etc.

Also, the verses for times of privacy which indicate befroe dawn salaat and after dusk salaat, how does that fit?

Bring them on and lets analyze.

You are taking that verse out of context of the whole. If "salaat" it that verse dealt with "commitments", rather lets change that to the singular "commitment", then why is the next statement "providing for the needy"? Isn't that redundant? Or is providing for the needy the one singular commitment that you are refering to?

"providing for the needy" is generalized to mean EVERYONE as a WHOLE whoever is in need and not just one person, hence your obligation/commitment to provide for the needy, such as financial aide, clothing, shelter, a helping hand, etc. and not via meditaion. That's sounds like a bizzare approach when trying to meditate in order to help someone at dawn and dusk only, don't you think? Besides, the first verse I provided has nothing to do with such traumatic approaches. It is NOT natural.

The only way you can help, that is , CHANGE A CONDITION, is to change what is WITHIN YOU first. Yu cant help another until you first help yourself. The God says He doesnt change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier SPIRIT/Mind(nafs), and we do that by meditation.

The "commitments", rather, "commitment" you are trying to debate deals with outward externals, but that must be preceeded by change WITHIN. The Externals are part of the purification(zakaat) portion, thats where you will find your "commitments".

?Changing of Conditons?, internally/externally, is another topic not related to ?salaat? as per the Quran.

Instead, meditation is the way to get in touch with the UNSEEN that we are to trust in, so we can get the help from the God, with patience, to help reprogram our behavior. Just like TV and Radio programs us all day, we must purify ourselves from this worldy programming and maintain our process(salaat) of meditation to cleanse ourselves.

Getting in touch with the UNSEEN via meditation is NOT required of any specific times.

Certainly NOT. One can meditate or pray (related to each other) to GOD at ANYTIME, ANYWHERE.

Dawn and dusk are the times mentioned clearly for salaat.

If it wasn?t mentioned, I wouldn?t be discussing about it in relations to salaat, now would I, duh.

Besides, meditation can be done for just about anything. Anyone can pray to GOD and ask for HIS guidance, help and mercy at anytime, anyday, anywhere.

Why are you comparing meditation to prayer? I agree BOTH can be done at anytime, but this does not mean that it is the BEST TIME to be doing those PROCESSES. Just like one can eat food at anytime, but its best to eat your biggest meal between 1-3pm, not late at night before going to bed. It has to do with the proper timing, this is a timed book(universe), thats why we have timing devices in the skies.

Went right off my bat.

GOD Almighty is Omnipresent and Omniscient. Programming our behavior is through proper channelling and practising our commitments/obligations/duties (salaat) as it surrounds us is every moment/aspects of our lives per the commands of the Quran and adhering to it. The "process" of meditation is simply an instruction/illustration.

You see how you made "commitments" as PLURAL again? Thats because it does not fit as singular and subconsciously, you cant help but keep using the plural.

Sure enough, I relate the commitments/obligations/duties/routines as commanded throughout the Quran as a WHOLE to mean salaat. You just can?t seem to grasp it. And ah yes, FYI, meditation and prayer are related, go figure. Perhaps meditation is a form of ?dua? but certainly not salaat, as per Quran.

Wordly programming is not done at dawn and dusk only and one can mediatate anytime to "cleanse themsleves".

What do you mean by worldy programming?

You are saying what is NOT DONE, rather than talking about what SHOULD BE done.

Nope, that?s not what I am saying. Turn the table around.

Again, YES, we can do ANYTHING at ANYTIME, but we have to find out when are the BEST TIMES to do these things, and the God answers clearly as to the best times to maintain the process(salaat).

And those best times of doing ANYTHING are NOT specific to dawn and dusk. Btw, why have you parenthesized salaat next to process? Has salaat, according to your beliefs, changed from ?meditation? to a ?process?, at a wink.

Meditation itself is not specific to certain mandatory times, such as dawn and dusk. Kyle, you seem to be stuck with just one verse that talks about timings and forcing your views/issues on all verses of the Quran that has no basis. That's what I call redundant and biased.

Stuck on one verse? Is that how you defend your position? By not addressing the timing issue and talking past it, but only saying I am stuck? D Why not confront it?

Yes, you are stuck on just one verse of the entire Quran where dusk and dawn is mentioned. No wonder you keep babbling about the timing issue of dusk and dawn all over your posts without contemplating on ALL other verses of the Quran where salaat is mentioned to bring about a coherent meaning as per their context. It is you who cannot seem to talk past this dusk/dawn thingy of yours. Have you read the verse where your ?middle meditation is also mentioned (see below).

Idolfree1
Certainly you can, but there are times when your spirit(nafs) is most receptive. Just like a man can give his seed at any time, but there are certain times when the woman is receptive to the seed and can become impregnated.

True, but such receptiveness are not specifically applicable to the times at dusk and/or dawn only. And certainly nothing to do with meditation.

You have only made a statement and have offered no proof. I have given OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC PROOF regarding brain wave states, you have given a subjective response with no evidence.

I have stated everything pertaining to the Quranic understanding of ?salaat? being as simple and natural as possible in the times in which we witness and live our lives, as per the guidelines/commands. I am fully aware of what meditation is scientifically, but that is NOT what salaat is Quranically, hence this discussion, understand.

Idolfree1
It is scientifically(objectively) proven that the times before going to bed and after waking up are the best times of receptivity, because you are at that in-between(medi) state. Now if we keep in mind that he nightime if for sleep, the day is for other duties, and the timing for salaat is dawn and dusk, what does this suggest to you?

Meditation is more receptive during relaxed mood at any given time. Dawn and dusk are NOT specific to bed or waking-up times. Millions work during graveyard and other odd shifts, hence their relaxed/receptive levels varies, and not to mention individual lifestyles

Yes, some people work OUT OF THIER NORMAL LIFE CYCLES because there is no compulsion in the system. But certainly you agree that the God has described the night as a time for sleeping, and the day for other duties, do you agree? So if we are dealing with the God's message, then you cannot enter into the argument the lifestyle of some human beings as evidence that dawn and dusk are not the proper times.

While this may be true to a certain extent, perhaps more so in dark/stone ages, certainly not in our generation. Quran is for all times.

Perhaps only a small percentage out of 6+ billion people know how to meditate

Then came a generation who LOST thier salaat and followed thier desires. Remember?

Yes I do. And it means that the generation disregarded their commitments/obligations/duties of righteousness as was commanded to them, which btw, are commanded to us in similar fashion in the Quran. Read the entire passage and contemplate on its message. Next time, for simplicity, please quote verses in its entirety to make things clearer for you when I rebuttal/discuss.

Also, while a LARGE percentage of the 6+ Billion people may not be ATTENTIVE of thier meditation, they still meditate unknowingly when they daydream, and when they get punped up by high emotions, etc.

So now meditation has moved over to daydreaming and pumping up of emotions, eh? Do such daydreaming and pumping emotions happen only at dawn and dusk?

Therefore , when we read the verses that say "WOE/REGRET to thosse who "salaat" but are unattantive to thier salaat.

Please quote those verses in its entirety and let us analyze what it talks about

, but all 6+ billion people know their commitments/obligations/duties (salaat) as a WHOLE on a day to day basis.

And I CERTAINBLY doubt that the majority know what they should be doing, in fact the od says REPEATEDLY "most of them do not KNOW"

So how can you come and say they DO know? D Please consider what I am saying.

What people should be doing and what they shouldn?t, is another topic. We are discussing salaat, meaning commitments/obligations/duties as per the Quran.

As an example to what is meant by ?most of them do not KNOW?, means that the Muslims (sunnies/shias) THINK that they are committed/obligated/duty-bound to living their lives as per the Quran, but they are obviously not, hence ?most of them do not KNOW?. Ofcourse, this goes for all humankind. Read the entire verse/passage of the Quran and quote them for better understanding, don?t just pick-and-choose words and half sentences out of them to impose your ideas.

Your ?CERTAINBLY? is simply hilarious. Gosh, what efforts!

The Quran emphasis on such commitments/obligations/duties to take heed and to become righteous individuals. Even those who know how to mediate are not restricted to dawn and dusk, like myself and several others whom I know. You are using science to elaborate what meditation is all about as per their theories and/or facts, not Quran to prove what salaat is all about as per contexts, naturally occurring.

Again you used the plural. You keep using the same argument that it can be done at anytime, I agree, but when is it most beneficial? If you were trying to lose weight, you can eat at anytime, but isnt there a time you can eat that would be most beneficial to weight loss?

Absolutely NOT!!! But perhaps you can open up a clinic for obese people to lose weight via meditation at dawn and dusk. Assuming that such weight loss techniques worked out, you?d become a billionaire in no time but unfortunately would not relate to the ?salaat? AS PER THE QURAN.

If you were trying to impregnate your wife, shouuldn't you ask her if the TIMING IS RIGHT? Or do you just release seed haphazardly?

The debate is on salaat to mean meditation during dusk and dawn as per your admonition. What has impregnating my wife and asking her for the RIGHT TIME and to release my seed haphazardly got to do with meditation at dawn and dusk. Man, you present some bizarre scenarios which are simply laughable. Get a grip on your ?uncontrolled thoughts?.

Please think about the TIMING and do not downplay TIMING.

As I mentioned earlier, you are STUCK on the timing issue of dusk and dawn in a specific verse where salaat, as per your beliefs, to mean meditation. Here, let me drill and drain your preconceived notions a little further by presenting another verse (besides 11114) where timing of salaat is mentioned

2238 You shall consistently observe your commitments (salaat), centered (balanced), and devote yourselves totally to GOD.

Your insistence upon timing to meditate at dusk and dawn because of some scientific proofs or brain cells receptivity, falls short AS PER THE VERSE ABOVE. Whatever happened to the middle meditation as per timing issue of this verse? I guess it became daydreaming, yet another stylish way of meditation perhaps.

Let me throw in another verse that might further elaborate that salaat is NOT meditation

56 O you who believe, when upholding your commitments (Salat), you shall wash your faces, wash your arms to the elbows, wipe your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.

This verse talks about physical hygiene/cleanliness and to observe/uphold such duties/obligations (salaat). People don?t start meditating to wash their arms, heads, feet or whilst taking a shower/bath. These also can be done at anytime as per situations and not specific to dusk and dawn. Cleanliness is a natural routine for everyone on a daily basis, thus our commitment (salaat) to remain as such. Plain and simple.

quote]Please think about the TIMING and do not downplay TIMING.

I?v e read and understood the SALAAT issue AS PER THE QURAN to mean commitments/obligations/duties as a WHOLE. I DO NOT downplay Quranic ?MESSAGE? (very important word here). Hey Kyle, you are trying very hard to inject your preconceived ideas on salaat in much the same way as you did with the Jinn issue. Re-read my earlier post where I had mentioned that you write your article on salaat AS PER QURANIC UNDERSTANDING OF ALL VERSES THAT CONTAIN THE WORD SALAAT IN ITS MOST COHERENT WAY. I am afraid, you?ve not done that all, but nevertheless, I am awaiting to read your forthcoming article WITHOUT ANY WISHY-WASHY NOTIONS AND BIZZARE SCENARIOS. That?s all.

marie

Peace all,

Just my two cents about "inna alssalata kanat AAala almu/mineena kitaban mawqootan" (4103)

Another word with the same root than "mawqootan" is used in 485

Whoever intercedes a good intercession, he will have a reward of it; and whoever intercedes an evil intercession, he will receive a share of it. And God has control/has control/ is Watcher/ watchful constantly over all things. over all things.
Man yashfaAA shafaAAatan hasanatanyakun lahu naseebun minha waman yashfaAA shafaAAatansayyi-atan yakun lahu kiflun minha wakana AllahuAAala kulli shay-in muqeetan

In the word muqeetan, there is the notion of the continuity, durability, constancy. The God has control all time over all thing and not at specific time. This notion may be common between muqeetan (485) and mawqootan (4103)

The verse 7023 illustrates this notion

Except the MUSALLEEN. (Who are Musalleen?).
Illa almusalleena
Who are always maintaining their salat / MUSALLEEN are those who always follow the Divine System..
Allatheena hum AAala salatihim da-imoona

We can join the congregations of Salat at any time we wish like for example in this forum )
In the same way we can organize a meeting for the salat at any time or day suitable and fixed by the community.

The God knows best

Peace

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

Neither does meditation fit into the verses, certainly not
?everything? as (not and) a ?whole? is emphasized towards commitments/obligations/duties laiden throughout the Quran as commands for any individual to live a sincere, humble, peaceful and righteous life, such as being truthful, for example. One doesn?t need meditation to speak the truth specific to dawn and dusk, but it is our obligation, our duty, as a WHOLE, in EVERYTHING we do at ANYTIME, ANYWHERE to speak the truth. This is very basic and natural.

What does DAWN and DUSK have to do with "ANYTIME"? We are not talking about ANYTIME, we are talking about DAWN and DUSK. Is the message not straightfoward? Why say DAWN and DUSK if it means ANYTIME?

You are taking one of the PARTS and trying to make it the WHOLE.

5106 O you who believe, witnessing a will when one of you is dying shall be done by two equitable people among you. If you are traveling, then two others may do the witnessing. After observing the obligations (Salat), let the witnesses swear by GOD, to alleviate your doubts "We will not use this to attain personal gains, even if the testator is related to us. Nor will we conceal GOD's testimony. Otherwise, we would be sinners."

Where did you get the OBSERVING part? Anyway, meditation takes you ABOVE the realm of emotions. Therefore the person is in the BEST CONDITION to obey the God. Its kind of like getting a christian to do good JUST AFTER church service, or a "Muslim" JUST AFTER "Friday Service", rather then sometime during the normal week when the sermon wears off, its that same type of effect.

Again, why is "obligations" plural?

Read the above verses in its entirety, it gives you the basic guidelines of a WILL and TRANSACTIONS. This is nothing else but an obligation, a commitment to follow what it says and this is but NATURAL for all to do at anytime, anywhere and NOT specific to dawn and/or dusk.

Yes, it is a commitment upon the righteous, the God calls it a covenant or promise, not "salaat".

The word ?salaat? in 5106 has absolutely nothing to do with meditation but emphasizes on upholding your obligations as stated, such as, writing a Will, business transactions, testimonies, witnesses, etc., etc.

It has everything to do with meditation and the EFFECTS of meditation. I think you may not be familiar with meditation the way I am discussing. We are not talking about just sitting still , feeling relaxed. It is a VERY DEEP SCIENCE we are discussing, that is very old.

Quote
Also, the verses for times of privacy which indicate befroe dawn salaat and after dusk salaat, how does that fit?

Bring them on and lets analyze.

The verse states that the private times include BEFORE DAWN SALAAT and AFTER DUSK SALAAT.

Be sure in your explanation to keep salaat SINGULAR. And be sure to let us know what the commitment is for each one.

Quote
You are taking that verse out of context of the whole. If "salaat" it that verse dealt with "commitments", rather lets change that to the singular "commitment", then why is the next statement "providing for the needy"? Isn't that redundant? Or is providing for the needy the one singular commitment that you are refering to?

"providing for the needy" is generalized to mean EVERYONE as a WHOLE whoever is in need and not just one person, hence your obligation/commitment to provide for the needy, such as financial aide, clothing, shelter, a helping hand, etc. and not via meditaion. That's sounds like a bizzare approach when trying to meditate in order to help someone at dawn and dusk only, don't you think? Besides, the first verse I provided has nothing to do with such traumatic approaches. It is NOT natural.

I never said you help the needy through meditation, the verse is not about how you help the needy, its about what YOU must do, meditate and help the needy are two different PARTS of the system. Helping the needy is not salaat or part of salaat, it is its own concept.

Idolfree1
The only way you can help, that is , CHANGE A CONDITION, is to change what is WITHIN YOU first. Yu cant help another until you first help yourself. The God says He doesnt change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier SPIRIT/Mind(nafs), and we do that by meditation.

The "commitments", rather, "commitment" you are trying to debate deals with outward externals, but that must be preceeded by change WITHIN. The Externals are part of the purification(zakaat) portion, thats where you will find your "commitments".

Danish
?Changing of Conditons?, internally/externally, is another topic not related to ?salaat? as per the Quran.

What topic is it?

Idolfree
Instead, meditation is the way to get in touch with the UNSEEN that we are to trust in, so we can get the help from the God, with patience, to help reprogram our behavior. Just like TV and Radio programs us all day, we must purify ourselves from this worldy programming and maintain our process(salaat) of meditation to cleanse ourselves.

Danish
Getting in touch with the UNSEEN via meditation is NOT required of any specific times.

Certainly NOT. One can meditate or pray (related to each other) to GOD at ANYTIME, ANYWHERE.

But again, there are TIMES that are BEST, this is what we must get to when you stop ignoring the TIMING DESCRIBED.

Quote
Dawn and dusk are the times mentioned clearly for salaat.

If it wasn?t mentioned, I wouldn?t be discussing about it in relations to salaat, now would I, duh.

Where have you discussed the timing? Please refresh my memory as to the significance of Dawn and DUsk.

Idolfree1
You see how you made "commitments" as PLURAL again? Thats because it does not fit as singular and subconsciously, you cant help but keep using the plural.

Danish
Sure enough, I relate the commitments/obligations/duties/routines as commanded throughout the Quran as a WHOLE to mean salaat. You just can?t seem to grasp it. And ah yes, FYI, meditation and prayer are related, go figure. Perhaps meditation is a form of ?dua? but certainly not salaat, as per Quran.

I grasp exactly what your position is, you are saying that all the principles we are told to do compromise "commitment" or "obligation". Why is it not plural though? Why not maintain the obligations?

Also, why the redundancy? The God already told us to hold to His contract/promise, why do we have to repeat this command using a completely different word?

Quote
Again, YES, we can do ANYTHING at ANYTIME, but we have to find out when are the BEST TIMES to do these things, and the God answers clearly as to the best times to maintain the process(salaat).

And those best times of doing ANYTHING are NOT specific to dawn and dusk. Btw, why have you parenthesized salaat next to process? Has salaat, according to your beliefs, changed from ?meditation? to a ?process?, at a wink.

How can you stepfoward and debate my position when you are not clear on my position? That doesnt make sense. My position is this, salaat=process. The question comes, what process? It is the process of meditation. Same way when the verse says "only system acceptable is submission(islam)", the question comes, submission to what?

So Al Salaat = The Process, and that process is meditation. It is our ability to learn, to PROGRAM ourselves.

Quote
Meditation itself is not specific to certain mandatory times, such as dawn and dusk. Kyle, you seem to be stuck with just one verse that talks about timings and forcing your views/issues on all verses of the Quran that has no basis. That's what I call redundant and biased.

Stuck on one verse? Is that how you defend your position? By not addressing the timing issue and talking past it, but only saying I am stuck? Why not confront it?

Yes, you are stuck on just one verse of the entire Quran where dusk and dawn is mentioned. No wonder you keep babbling about the timing issue of dusk and dawn all over your posts without contemplating on ALL other verses of the Quran where salaat is mentioned to bring about a coherent meaning as per their context. It is you who cannot seem to talk past this dusk/dawn thingy of yours. Have you read the verse where your ?middle meditation is also mentioned (see below).

You can search through the salaat thread and when you get near the bottom, you will see the compilation of salaat verses thread. I made this a long time ago now, which shows I have CERTAINLY been doing the work. I have yet to see anyone do the same for "commitments". I will move on to see what you mean by "see below".

Idolfree1
Certainly you can, but there are times when your spirit(nafs) is most receptive. Just like a man can give his seed at any time, but there are certain times when the woman is receptive to the seed and can become impregnated.

True, but such receptiveness are not specifically applicable to the times at dusk and/or dawn only. And certainly nothing to do with meditation.

You have only made a statement and have offered no proof. I have given OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC PROOF regarding brain wave states, you have given a subjective response with no evidence.

I have stated everything pertaining to the Quranic understanding of ?salaat? being as simple and natural as possible in the times in which we witness and live our lives, as per the guidelines/commands. I am fully aware of what meditation is scientifically, but that is NOT what salaat is Quranically, hence this discussion, understand.

Give me some of your scientific understanding of meditation so I can see that you know what I am talking about.

Idolfree1
It is scientifically(objectively) proven that the times before going to bed and after waking up are the best times of receptivity, because you are at that in-between(medi) state. Now if we keep in mind that he nightime if for sleep, the day is for other duties, and the timing for salaat is dawn and dusk, what does this suggest to you?

Meditation is more receptive during relaxed mood at any given time. Dawn and dusk are NOT specific to bed or waking-up times. Millions work during graveyard and other odd shifts, hence their relaxed/receptive levels varies, and not to mention individual lifestyles

Yes, some people work OUT OF THIER NORMAL LIFE CYCLES because there is no compulsion in the system. But certainly you agree that the God has described the night as a time for sleeping, and the day for other duties, do you agree? So if we are dealing with the God's message, then you cannot enter into the argument the lifestyle of some human beings as evidence that dawn and dusk are not the proper times.

Danish
While this may be true to a certain extent, perhaps more so in dark/stone ages, certainly not in our generation. Quran is for all times.

The night for sleeping is for the dark ages???? My goodness. So you are saying because the human being is transgressing his natural cycles in large numbers, that the night is no longer for sleeping and we must change the truth that the God has descended? What is the "certain extent" you speak of, please elaborate

Quote
Perhaps only a small percentage out of 6+ billion people know how to meditate

Then came a generation who LOST thier salaat and followed thier desires. Remember?

Yes I do. And it means that the generation disregarded their commitments/obligations/duties of righteousness as was commanded to them, which btw, are commanded to us in similar fashion in the Quran. Read the entire passage and contemplate on its message. Next time, for simplicity, please quote verses in its entirety to make things clearer for you when I rebuttal/discuss.

How can you "lose" the understanding of feeding the poor for example. Especially when they walk among you begging for food? That makes no sense. But what you CAN LOSE is the PROCESS by which you learn, therefore someone else can gain access to your mind and program it themselves. (Willie Lynch)

Idolfree1
Also, while a LARGE percentage of the 6+ Billion people may not be ATTENTIVE of thier meditation, they still meditate unknowingly when they daydream, and when they get punped up by high emotions, etc.

So now meditation has moved over to daydreaming and pumping up of emotions, eh? Do such daydreaming and pumping emotions happen only at dawn and dusk?

You are again showing your lack of knowlegde of what meditation is. Meditation is the process of gettiing into a TRANCE state, which is what happens when you daydream or get emotional. Thats why we all have the conditions with us that need changing, because we accepted them into our psyche in states of trance.

No, this does not happen only at dawn and dusk, it can happen any time, but when you learn the science of it, in order to FIX the problem (Gods help comes with patience and salaat), then you will realize there are times that are more SUPERIOR than others. You can fix things FASTER and MORE EFFICIENT if you do it at certain times. Ask a farmer about the phases of the moon.

Idolfree1
Therefore , when we read the verses that say "WOE/REGRET to thosse who "salaat" but are unattantive to thier salaat.

Please quote those verses in its entirety and let us analyze what it talks about

I just gave a clear example, we mediitate all the time unintentionally, very few do it intentionally. Are you saying there are people who maintain thier commitments (oops, I meant commitment) who are not aware they have fed the poor, written down a will, etc? Please explain your position.

but all 6+ billion people know their commitments/obligations/duties (salaat) as a WHOLE on a day to day basis.

Hmmmm, so what happened to the people who LOST THIER SALAAT?

Idolfree1
And I CERTAINBLY doubt that the majority know what they should be doing, in fact the od says REPEATEDLY "most of them do not KNOW"

So how can you come and say they DO know? Please consider what I am saying.

Danish
What people should be doing and what they shouldn?t, is another topic. We are discussing salaat, meaning commitments/obligations/duties as per the Quran.

And the difference is?

As an example to what is meant by ?most of them do not KNOW?, means that the Muslims (sunnies/shias) THINK that they are committed/obligated/duty-bound to living their lives as per the Quran, but they are obviously not, hence ?most of them do not KNOW?. Ofcourse, this goes for all humankind. Read the entire verse/passage of the Quran and quote them for better understanding, don?t just pick-and-choose words and half sentences out of them to impose your ideas.

You are making too many excuses about the verses not being presented, do you not know which verses I am talking about? Why did you not show the your self so you could prove your point? Well, I will provide them after this post from now on so there wont be any excuse.

Your ?CERTAINBLY? is simply hilarious. Gosh, what efforts!

Please elaborate? Are you refering to a mistake I made in typing as a point of debate? I hope this is not the case.

Danish
The Quran emphasis on such commitments/obligations/duties to take heed and to become righteous individuals. Even those who know how to mediate are not restricted to dawn and dusk, like myself and several others whom I know. You are using science to elaborate what meditation is all about as per their theories and/or facts, not Quran to prove what salaat is all about as per contexts, naturally occurring.

Idolfree1
Again you used the plural. You keep using the same argument that it can be done at anytime, I agree, but when is it most beneficial? If you were trying to lose weight, you can eat at anytime, but isnt there a time you can eat that would be most beneficial to weight loss?

Danish
Absolutely NOT!!!

NO???? You are saying that if you eat at nightime as oppossed to around NOON, when your bodies digestive juices are at its HIEGHT, that there is no difference??? You have got to be kidding. Maybe we better stick to the sperm and egg example until you have more knowledge of the digestive process. Is there a time more conducive to reproduction, yes or no?

But perhaps you can open up a clinic for obese people to lose weight via meditation at dawn and dusk. Assuming that such weight loss techniques worked out, you?d become a billionaire in no time but unfortunately would not relate to the ?salaat? AS PER THE QURAN.

Unfortunately most people take the call to the PROCESS(salaat) as a joke, REMEMBER? So that wont make much money. But it definately works. There are studies on hypnotism (induced meditation) and the like that will verify my claim.

Quote
If you were trying to impregnate your wife, shouuldn't you ask her if the TIMING IS RIGHT? Or do you just release seed haphazardly?

The debate is on salaat to mean meditation during dusk and dawn as per your admonition. What has impregnating my wife and asking her for the RIGHT TIME and to release my seed haphazardly got to do with meditation at dawn and dusk. Man, you present some bizarre scenarios which are simply laughable. Get a grip on your ?uncontrolled thoughts?.

I guess this is going over your head. We are dealing with TIMING. Put aside Dawn and Dusk for a minute. What I am trying to get you to admit is that there is a PROPER TIME for things in life, even though these things can be done continuously.

Quote
Please think about the TIMING and do not downplay TIMING.

As I mentioned earlier, you are STUCK on the timing issue of dusk and dawn in a specific verse where salaat, as per your beliefs, to mean meditation. Here, let me drill and drain your preconceived notions a little further by presenting another verse (besides 11114) where timing of salaat is mentioned

2238 You shall consistently observe your commitments (salaat), centered (balanced), and devote yourselves totally to GOD.

Your insistence upon timing to meditate at dusk and dawn because of some scientific proofs or brain cells receptivity, falls short AS PER THE VERSE ABOVE. Whatever happened to the middle meditation as per timing issue of this verse? I guess it became daydreaming, yet another stylish way of meditation perhaps.

I'm glad you asked. First, let me state that your translation is faulty, salat is mentioned twice in this verse, yet you only have it there once, why is that?

The verse says to "GUARD your process(salaat-more thna two), the BALANCED PROCESS(salaat-singular), ...."

Medi-tation is the MERGING(balance) of CONSCIOUSNESS and SUBCONSCIOUSNESS, thats why we have the analogy of the day merging with the night, and thats why the times are DAWN and DUSK.

There is no MIDDLE salaat, Wusta is describing the PROCESS(salaat). We are a BALANCED(wusta) COMMUNITY, remember? Find your center.

Let me throw in another verse that might further elaborate that salaat is NOT meditation

Great!

56 O you who believe, when upholding your commitments (Salat), you shall wash your faces, wash your arms to the elbows, wipe your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.

This verse talks about physical hygiene/cleanliness and to observe/uphold such duties/obligations (salaat). People don?t start meditating to wash their arms, heads, feet or whilst taking a shower/bath. These also can be done at anytime as per situations and not specific to dusk and dawn. Cleanliness is a natural routine for everyone on a daily basis, thus our commitment (salaat) to remain as such. Plain and simple.

So lets see, I am walking in the street and I see a homeless man begging for food, so am I to go perform abulution then feed him?

Meditation is a RITUAL, and we prepare for the RITUAL in a certain manner to remind ourselves of the PURPOSE of the ritual. We are going back to the beginning (water+earth=clay)

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

(376) Yes/certainly, who fulfilled with his promise/obligation and feared and obeyed, so surely The God loves the fearing and obeying.

Why is salaat not used in this verse?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

The Musaleen who maintain thier salaat are the Processors who maintian the process(meditation).

Only those who maintain PROGRAMMING THEMSLEVES rather than BEING PROGRAMMED are the exception(Illa).

marie

Peace Kyle, all,

I see your view but I don't share it because it is based on your interpretation which is not supported by other quranic verses. I think we have no need to interpret this word because it is well explained through the Reading.

In the Reading, the God also speaks about meditation which has no thing with your definition

...Meditation is the process of getting into a TRANCE state...

The meditation (attafakkur, attadabbur) in the light of the Reading

Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder/meditate in the creation of the heavens and the Earth ?Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!?
Allatheena yathkuroona Allahaqiyaman waquAAoodan waAAala junoobihim wayatafakkaroona fee khalqi alssamawati waal-ardi rabbana ma khalaqta hatha batilan subhanakafaqina AAathaba alnnari
Do they not reflect/meditate on the Reading? If it was from any other than God they would have found it very different.
Afala yatadabbaroona alqur-ana walaw kana min AAindi ghayri Allahi lawajadoo feehiikhtilafan katheeran
Did they not reflect/meditate upon themselves? God did not create the heavens and the Earth and what is between them except by truth and an appointed term. But most of the people are in denial regarding their meeting with their Lord.
Awa lam yatafakkaroo fee anfusihim makhalaqa Allahu alssamawati waal-ardawama baynahuma illa bialhaqqiwaajalin musamman wa-inna katheeran mina alnnasibiliqa-i rabbihim lakafiroona
1. Say ?I advise you to do one thing that you stand to God, in pairs or as individuals, then reflect/meditate. There is no madness in your friend, he is only a warner to you in the face of a severe retribution.?
  Qul innama aAAithukumbiwahidatin an taqoomoo lillahi mathna wafurada thumma tatafakkaroo ma bisahibikum min jinnatin inhuwa illa natheerun lakum bayna yaday AAathabinshadeedin
A Scripture/book that We have sent down to you, that is blessed, so that they may reflect/meditate upon its verses, and so that those with intelligence will take heed.
Kitabun anzalnahu ilayka mubarakun liyaddabbaroo ayatihi waliyatathakkara olooal-albabi

Peace

marie

Peace all,

Just my two cents about "inna alssalata kanat AAala almu/mineena kitaban mawqootan" (4103)

Another word with the same root than "mawqootan" is used in 485

Whoever intercedes a good intercession, he will have a reward of it; and whoever intercedes an evil intercession, he will receive a share of it. And God has control/has control/ is Watcher/ watchful constantly over all things. over all things.
Man yashfaAA shafaAAatan hasanatanyakun lahu naseebun minha waman yashfaAA shafaAAatansayyi-atan yakun lahu kiflun minha wakana AllahuAAala kulli shay-in muqeetan

In the word muqeetan, there is the notion of the continuity, durability, constancy. The God has control all time over all thing and not at specific time. This notion may be common between muqeetan (485) and mawqootan (4103)

The verse 7023 illustrates this notion

Except the MUSALLEEN. (Who are Musalleen?).
Illa almusalleena
Who are always maintaining their salat / MUSALLEEN are those who always follow the Divine System..
Allatheena hum AAala salatihim da-imoona

We can join the congregations of Salat at any time we wish like for example in this forum
In the same way we can organize a meeting for the salat at any time or day suitable and fixed by the community.

In the light of 485, I wonder if we can read/understand the last sentence of 4103 in other manner

inna almu/min AAala alssalati (decree) muqeet
The believer should observe constantly this decree (salat)

Looking for your thoughts

Thanks

unknownuser

Peace Kyle,

I'm sorry to say that you keep going in circles, present bizarre scenarios and ask irrelevant questions. Needless to say, that you pick-and-choose words and half-sentences out of the verses to support your pre-conceived ideas and give it a meaning without contemplating on the entire passage/message. Then you inject scientific theories to prove just those chosen words and half-sentences of yours, disregarding its implications/outcomes on the message being conveyed. Hence, I?ll refrain from replying to you senselessly over again to your previous post.

In reference to salaat, let me paraphrase and make it real simple for you to understand (that is, if you still can)

It is our commitment/obligation/duty to understand and act upon all fundamental underlying principles mentioned in the Quran, in order to live a basic, simple and a happy life. This commitment/obligation/duty to do just that is ?salaat?. Period.

Now, as far as meditation is concerned, Marie elaborated beautifully by examples of quoting the entire verses where meditation is used, given the message (masha-Allah). Therefore, ponder and reflect.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

I do not translate salaat directly to meditation, I translate it as "process", and the verses you have brought have made this position even stronger.

The PROCESS is meditation(attafakkur, attadabbur)

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Danish,

(7531) So he did not give charity nor did he process.

In the beginning we have one of the actions that a submissive person is suppossed to carry out, then we have NOR, the another statement that he did not "salaat".

This would be a redundant statement if salaat equals commitment.

marie

Peace Kyle,

Peace be upon you Marie,

I do not translate salaat directly to meditation, I translate it as "process", and the verses you have brought have made this position even stronger.

The PROCESS is meditation(attafakkur, attadabbur)

the word salat doesn't occur in the verses I quoted. From these verses, there is no specifis time to ponder reflect/meditate in the creation, the Reading...

I prefer the definition of the meditation as the process of deeper reflexion (attafakkur, attadabbur) than the process of getting into a TRANCE state according to your last statement.

Our salat is due to the God (1082, 6162), one can follow closely (salla) the God's system through the process of meditation

Peace

wildguest1956

Instead, meditation is the way to get in touch with the UNSEEN that we are to trust in, so we can get the help from the God, with patience, to help reprogram our behavior. Just like TV and Radio programs us all day, we must purify ourselves from this worldy programming and maintain our process(salaat) of meditation to cleanse ourselves.

How can you "lose" the understanding of feeding the poor for example. Especially when they walk among you begging for food? That makes no sense. But what you CAN LOSE is the PROCESS by which you learn, therefore someone else can gain access to your mind and program it themselves. (Willie Lynch)

So Al Salaat = The Process, and that process is meditation. It is our ability to learn, to PROGRAM ourselves.

Does the definition "Al Salaat = The Process of turning toward God" satisfy you ?

Meditation is the process of getting into a TRANCE state, which is what happens when you daydream or get emotional.

Where did you find in the quran that we need to get into TRANCE to learn and program ourselves ?

Peace

wildguest1956

Peace all,

Just my two cents about "inna alssalata kanat AAala almu/mineena kitaban mawqootan" (4103)

Another word with the same root than "mawqootan" is used in 485

Whoever intercedes a good intercession, he will have a reward of it; and whoever intercedes an evil intercession, he will receive a share of it. And God has control/has control/ is Watcher/ watchful constantly over all things. over all things.
Man yashfaAA shafaAAatan hasanatanyakun lahu naseebun minha waman yashfaAA shafaAAatansayyi-atan yakun lahu kiflun minha wakana AllahuAAala kulli shay-in muqeetan

In the word muqeetan, there is the notion of the continuity, durability, constancy. The God has control all time over all thing and not at specific time. This notion may be common between muqeetan (485) and mawqootan (4103)

The verse 7023 illustrates this notion

Except the MUSALLEEN. (Who are Musalleen?).
Illa almusalleena
Who are always maintaining their salat / MUSALLEEN are those who always follow the Divine System..
Allatheena hum AAala salatihim da-imoona

We can join the congregations of Salat at any time we wish like for example in this forum )
In the same way we can organize a meeting for the salat at any time or day suitable and fixed by the community.

In the light of 485, I wonder if we can read/understand the last sentence of 4103 in other manner

inna almu/min AAala alssalati (decree) muqeet
The believer should observe constantly this decree (salat)

Looking for your thoughts

Thanks

Peace Marie,

What is the meaning of mawqootan in the dictionaries ?

marie

Peace JM,

Peace Marie,

What is the meaning of mawqootan in the dictionaries ?

Thanks for your question, I will try to translate correctly what I have read in my dictionnary

waqtun mawqoot wa muwaqqat (here is the time which is dscribed by mawqoot and muwaqqat), it means ma7dood (limited, confined, defined, delimited, limited, restricted, finished).
"alssalata kanat AAala almu/mineena kitaban mawqootan" means that salat is decreed upon the belivers in definite (muwaqqata) times (awqat).

The verb waqqata something means to declare, show, explain, make obvious, elucidate, clear up its limit (7ddahu).

The verb yaqitu When it is used in its negative form lam yaqit means he doesn?t appreciate, calculate, estimate, evaluate, measure, judge, predict a limit of something, in other word this thing is not limited by a number.

We can note that the verbs Waqqata and yaqitu can be used independently of time

About muqeet (485). unfortunatelyI didn't find anything.

Hope that helps

beatnik

Salat sounds better as 'commitment' than 'meditation' as it becomes more pro-active and dealing with other people and the environment which is in the same vein as the messages in the Quran. Not to discount meditation, but I dont think that act is something central to Islam, more of a peripheral act to help raise individuals to other levels of awareness.

As for masjids, I'm still clueless on that one, although seeing that as something non-physical, more of a 'temple' within ourselves is appealing. We've all seen how physical institutions always fall into ruin, usually by corruption which is caused by greed and the need for power. There are a few nice articles on the main freeminds site about the 'Islamic Republic' and such that detail nice systems that dont include leaders, but representatives dealing in the open always.

Anyway, peace all, continue the debate, its much appreciated.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

the word salat doesn't occur in the verses I quoted.

I know

From these verses, there is no specifis time to ponder reflect/meditate in the creation, the Reading...

Correct, we have to bring it all together.

I prefer the definition of the meditation as the process of deeper reflexion (attafakkur, attadabbur) than the process of getting into a TRANCE state according to your last statement.

Many people are turned off by the word TRANCE. But we go into TRANCE many times a day anyway, even though many do not understand it to be trance. Daydreaming is going into trance. Its not some spooky type of thing where you are in some type of stargate dimension or other ridiculousness, it is a very ordinary occurence. But we must MASTER this and be aware of this. We must GUARD ourselves from falling into these states unaware because we pick up bad conditionings this way. We must learn to put ourselves into Trance through meditation in order to reprogram our Minds/SPirits(nafs). This is the PROCESS how we purify the Nafs.

Our salat is due to the God (1082, 6162)

Yes, the God is on the Throne, we must ascend to that level through meditation.

one can follow closely (salla) the God's system through the process of meditation

I would say that it is the process(salaat) of meditation(attafakkur, attadabbur), which is turning to the God, patiently and persistently, so we may recieve HELP.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you JM,

Does the definition "Al Salaat = The Process of turning toward God" satisfy you ?

No, although we are turning to the God through the process(salaat) of meditation. We are turning towards the qibla(focus) so that we can recieve wisdom from the God.

idolfree1 wrote
Meditation is the process of getting into a TRANCE state, which is what happens when you daydream or get emotional.

Where did you find in the quran that we need to get into TRANCE to learn and program ourselves ?

I find it in the God's Kitaab(the universe). I have studied meditation from the perspective of those before us and thier metaphors even match up, specifically the "medi=middle" which WUSTA refers to, and the merging of day and night, etc.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Beatnik,

Salat sounds better as 'commitment' than 'meditation' as it becomes more pro-active and dealing with other people and the environment which is in the same vein as the messages in the Quran

(339) So the forces of control(malaika) called him while he is maintaining "salaat(sallee)" in the private chamber...

"salaat" has nothing to do with dealing with other people. Yes, we do deal with people when we "hajja" (debate), when we invite to righteousness, we deal justly, etc. But salaat has nothing to do with this. Salaat is incoming information so that we cna purify OUR nafs(minds/spirit), THEN we can go into the world and support the Message.

Not to discount meditation, but I dont think that act is something central to Islam, more of a peripheral act to help raise individuals to other levels of awareness.

Well you are going to eventually get to a point where you dont capatalize the word "islam" and you will understand this is not about a religion, it is about the TRUTH of LiFE, we must pecefully submit(islam) to TRUTH. Meditation is a BIG part of life, and the MOST IMPORTANT as verified by the response of those in hellfire. Thier first answer to the question of WHY THEY ARE THERE Is that they were NOT of those who processed(meditated).

(7442) "What made you enter/follow in Hell ?"
(7443) They said "We were not from those who processed(meditated)."

As for masjids, I'm still clueless on that one, although seeing that as something non-physical, more of a 'temple' within ourselves is appealing. We've all seen how physical institutions always fall into ruin, usually by corruption which is caused by greed and the need for power. There are a few nice articles on the main freeminds site about the 'Islamic Republic' and such that detail nice systems that dont include leaders, but representatives dealing in the open always.

The God says that the rejectors are not allowed in the masjids, this can only be a "mental" place where there is a veil preventing the mind or rejectors from reaching. Certainly rejectors cannot be detected by us so easily to be able to prevent them from entering a a building. Even this website, is it possible to prevent rejectors from entering here? Just think about it.

Anyway, peace all, continue the debate, its much appreciated.

Debate without arguing is always beneficial to us all D

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

I just wanted to post this again so it did not get lost and would be addressed.

(7531) So he did not give charity nor did he "salaat/Salli".

In the beginning we have one of the actions that a submissive person is suppossed to carry out, then we have NOR, then another statement that he did not "salaat".

This would be a redundant statement if salaat equals commitment because the claim is that charity is one of the commitments. The NOR gives is clear indication that salaat and charity are seperate comitments in themselves, therefore salaat cannot be "commitment".

wildguest1956

Peace be upon you JM,

Does the definition "Al Salaat = The Process of turning toward God" satisfy you ?

No, although we are turning to the God through the process(salaat) of meditation. We are turning towards the qibla(focus) so that we can recieve wisdom from the God.

What does it mean, in concrete terms?
Is it physical, or symbolic ?
Could you quote the verse when you found this info ?

idolfree1 wrote
Meditation is the process of getting into a TRANCE state, which is what happens when you daydream or get emotional.

Where did you find in the quran that we need to get into TRANCE to learn and program ourselves ?

I find it in the God's Kitaab(the universe). I have studied meditation from the perspective of those before us and thier metaphors even match up, specifically the "medi=middle" which WUSTA refers to, and the merging of day and night, etc.

Where can I read this kitaab ? And find in it that we need to get into TRANCE for salat ?

Peace