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  4. MANIFESTO for Islamic Reform

MANIFESTO for Islamic Reform

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General Issues / Questions
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  • F Offline
    F Offline
    Fahad1
    wrote on last edited by
    #102

    SaLaM mquran

    OMG! LOOOOOOOOOOOOLLL brother!!! Im saying just imagine for a minute that ther IS a ummah. How will they select a leader?

    yeah . i also wanna know . i m confused on this topic .
    peace.

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    • M Offline
      M Offline
      mquran
      wrote on last edited by
      #103

      Ok, it doesn't start with an 'umma of believers'. It starts with one man, the messenger.

      the messenger calls people to serve Allah. He then fulfils the role of the messenger (3/164) and (57/9) and also leads them in engagement in the world.

      From here, the umma is formed.

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      • J Offline
        J Offline
        Jaxal
        wrote on last edited by
        #104

        SaLaM mquran

        But brother, right now, there are people all over the world who are following God and his Books. Who is the leader?

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        • M Offline
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          mquran
          wrote on last edited by
          #105

          But brother, right now, there are people all over the world who are following God and his Books. Who is the leader?

          Yes, because no one has taken THE MESSENGER role. One guy needs to stand up and say 'i am the messenger, obey me'.

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          • J Offline
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            Jaxal
            wrote on last edited by
            #106

            SaLaM

            You mean like Rashid Khalifa? or Illijah? or Shareef? shock

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            • M Offline
              M Offline
              mquran
              wrote on last edited by
              #107

              Anyone at all who asks people to serve Allah is bringing God's message.

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              • J Offline
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                Jaxal
                wrote on last edited by
                #108

                Salam mquran

                So basically, anyone then.

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                • M Offline
                  M Offline
                  mquran
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #109

                  Who fulfils that criteria, yes. He must be INSPIRED to this. Please read the stories of the messengers, Jaxal.

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                  • J Offline
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                    Jaxal
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #110

                    SaLaM mquran

                    If Rashid Khalifa was alive right now, would you be believing that he is the leader of the ummah right now?

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                    • M Offline
                      M Offline
                      mquran
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #111

                      Good question. No , I wouldn't because RK didn't teach the Quran but rather sunnism minus hadith.

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                      • J Offline
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                        Jaxal
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #112

                        SaLaM mquran

                        Interesting. Ok, what if, this messenger was teaching something that went against your belief. You say RK was teaching sunnism - hadiths, but what if that is the right way? Would you beleive he is the leader?

                        ( i have no associationg with RK or his teaching, im just using him as a reference )

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                        • M Offline
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                          mquran
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #113

                          Interesting. Ok, what if, this messenger was teaching something that went against your belief. You say RK was teaching sunnism - hadiths, but what if that is the right way? Would you beleive he is the leader?

                          If a messenger came to me and preached what messengers before preached, yes I would. I've not met anyone to that effect at all. Remember that the messenger did TILAWAATUL KITAB (practice of the book) and not just bla bla'ed about it.

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                          • J Offline
                            J Offline
                            Jaxal
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #114

                            SaLaM mquran

                            Lollllllll . Ok but i asked you, say a messenger comes to you and preaches that Kabbah IS the place where God asked us to make pilgrimage and that it IS in Makkah as we know it today. Would you beleive him and accept him as your leader?

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                            • M Offline
                              M Offline
                              mquran
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #115

                              Lollllllll . Ok but i asked you, say a messenger comes to you and preaches that Kabbah IS the place where God asked us to make pilgrimage and that it IS in Makkah as we know it today. Would you beleive him and accept him as your leader?

                              He'd have to do better than you at presenting evidence..Lolllll (since you think this is a laughing matter).

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                              • J Offline
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                                Jaxal
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #116

                                SaLaM mquran

                                So now his messengership and leadership rests on how he does a presentation? what happened to the killing of the armies of God to prove his wisdom and power?

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                                • M Offline
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                                  mquran
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #117

                                  So now his messengership and leadership rests on how he does a presentation? what happened to the killing of the armies of God to prove his wisdom and power?

                                  What you need to do is, read the Quran for yourself. Its not a closed book and the stories of the messengers are clear. Read the story of Bani Israil from beginning to end please. From the start of the messengership of Musa, to how it evolves into Bani Israil, to how they ascend in the land to how David attains power.

                                  As for how he does a 'presentation', please note that you have to speak to the people. no mention of ms-powerpoint is mentioned..Lollll.

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                                  • J Offline
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                                    Jaxal
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #118

                                    SaLaM mquran

                                    Its just that you keep changing your criteria of this leader. First he had to destroy armies to prove he has power and wisdom. Then he has to preach the same religion as yours. And now, he has to have good presentation skills. Like God cares if you believe in his messenger or not.

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                                    • M Offline
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                                      mquran
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #119

                                      Its just that you keep changing your criteria of this leader. First he had to destroy armies to prove he has power and wisdom. Then he has to preach the same religion as yours. And now, he has to have good presentation skills. Like God cares if you believe in his messenger or not

                                      The answer changed because, in case you haven't noticed, the QUESTION changed. The initial discussion was about how a king ascended into power FROM AMONG BANI ISRAIL . Then you asked about an 'ummah of quranic believers' (another concept you will never find in al-quraan, quite a specialty of yours, non-existent concepts) . That changed the trajectory of discussion. So far, as I observe is very typical with you, you haven't quoted A SINGLE VERSE OF THE QURAN. Is there any point in continuing then if the quran isn't even worth you quoting it once? Where in the Quran is your 'democratically' (sic)- elected leader , I might ask ? Did any personality in the Quran to go to believers, let alone humankind and say 'pick me, pick me' ? Do some reading Jaxal, please.

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                                      • U Offline
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                                        unknownuser
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #120

                                        The answer changed because, in case you haven't noticed, the QUESTION changed.

                                        I think Jaxal Questions remained the same. It is you who have not worked out the implications of the question.

                                        Now you are saying Jaxal to read the Quran as if that will answer the question for you. I say this is a cop-out.

                                        Regards,

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                                        • M Offline
                                          M Offline
                                          mquran
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #121

                                          I think Jaxal Questions remained the same. It is you who have not worked out the implications of the questions.

                                          Ok tell us what the issue is, please. What is the objective of this discussion.

                                          Now you are saying Jaxal to read the Quran as if that will answer the question for you. I say this is a cop-out

                                          Reading the Quran is a process which somehow or other gets involved in the business of being a muslim. When you - who can't even tell us what a Muslim is- say 'cop out' , it wouldnt really hold much weight.

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