How Authentic is the Quran?
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If you have refuted it 7 years ago, why dont you tell me all about it? Are you shy? Is memory failing you? Maybe i can learn something from it if its worthy of it. You have to stop this whole 'everything i dont agree with is a sunni conspiracy' rant and ACTUALLY provide something useful to the discussion
Because, as I said, there's no point in discussing it with you. You have already adopted Brother Mark's classification system. So that's no problem at all with me. What do I care if you believe the Quran has been altered despite the verse KGB put forth? Stew in your beliefs mate
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SaLaM mquran
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Meaning you cant do it. Ok. That is all you had to say mquran. Actually, maybe you can help me. I am having trouble finding a verse in the Quran which says that the Quran is complete. Can you plz find me 1 verse which says that Quran is complete mquran? Id be really greatful.
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159 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
You CORRUPTED it by adding the words "from corruption" in brackets
Plus there NOTHING in verse 159 thats says it is referring to the Quran.
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I believe in the words of God. The following verse enough for me to believe that Qur'an is free of altertaftion modification addition or deletion.
159 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
The fact the you have replaced the word "Reminder/Message" in verse 159 and changed it to read "Quran" is proof that you yourself have changed what is written inside the quran... Even though it says "The Reminder", you read it as "The Quran" roll
"We have, without doubt sent down THE MESSAGE (Zhikra); And We will assuredly guard it "
Now what is THE REMINDER according to what is written in the Quran
"And before thee We sent none but men, to whom We granted inspiration If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess THE MESSAGE (Zhikri)"
Ask those who possess THE REMINDER !!!
"Before thee, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration if ye know this not, ask of those who possess THE MESSAGE (Zhikri)."
Again ask those who possess THE REMINDER !!!
"In the past We granted to Moses and Aaron the Criterion (al-Furqana) (for judgment), And a Light and a Message (Zikra) for those who would do right."
MOSES and AARON was given THE REMINDER !!!
"Before this, We wrote in the Psalms, after THE REMINDER (Zhikri) `My servants, the righteous, shall inherit the earth.'"
THE REMINDER came BEFORE the Psalms !!!... This rules out the Quran
"We did aforetime give Moses the Guidance, and We gave the Book in inheritance to the Children of Israel - A Guide and A REMINDER (Zhikraa) to men of understanding."
Again MOSES was Given THE REMINDER !!!
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Salaam Albion,
Al-quran is given many descriptions one of which is aldhikr . I think you possess a misunderstanding of the words tauraat and injeel. You probably even think that tauraat is given unto Moses and Aaron. Al-dhikr is given to other rusul besides Moses and Aaron.
Joe
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I think you possess a misunderstanding of the words tauraat and injeel
Can you quote where I referred to the Torah and Injeel in this Thread. My post is about THE REMINDER
Al-dhikr is given to other rusul besides Moses and Aaron
Yes exactly, the quran is NOT the ONLY Reminder according to the quran itself and verse 159 says THE REMINDER is guarded NOT the Quran itself or at least not ONLY the quran because THE REMINDER was given to many prophets (according to what is written in the Quran)
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If you have refuted it 7 years ago, why dont you tell me all about it? Are you shy? Is memory failing you? Maybe i can learn something from it if its worthy of it. You have to stop this whole 'everything i dont agree with is a sunni conspiracy' rant and ACTUALLY provide something useful to the discussion
Because, as I said, there's no point in discussing it with you. You have already adopted Brother Mark's classification system. So that's no problem at all with me. What do I care if you believe the Quran has been altered despite the verse KGB put forth? Stew in your beliefs mate )
With due respects to you mquran, Jaxal has given you the names of those threads for you to look at. He deserves an answer. So lets have your refutation that you have done 7 years ago on this.
Thanks.
(and yes I am asking you too for the benefit all the forum members -))
Regards,
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Salaam,
Can you quote where I referred to the Torah and Injeel in this Thread. My post is about THE REMINDER
No I can't.
I brought it up because you do believe that Moses was given the Torah and you believe that tauraat equals Torah. In the quran Moses is never mentioned as the one getting the Torah.
Yes exactly, the quran is NOT the ONLY Reminder according to the quran itself and verse 159 says THE REMINDER is guarded NOT the Quran itself or at least not ONLY the quran because THE REMINDER was given to many prophets (according to what is written in the Quran)
What's the beef than that the quran is not al-dhikr, the reminder?
Are the reminders different?
Joe
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Shalom to Everyone,
With due respects to you mquran, Jaxal has given you the names of those threads for you to look at. He deserves an answer. So lets have your refutation that you have done 7 years ago on this.
Im sorry LT, Jaxal hasn't got the decency to answer questions directly, a cornerstone in civilised discussion. Therefore I will not continue. The man expects direct answers but refuses to give them himself. Then he resorts to tauntings, as if I care what anyone thinks on the matter. Well I don't. We can discuss it in private if you like.
Yes exactly, the quran is NOT the ONLY Reminder according to the quran itself and verse 159 says THE REMINDER is guarded NOT the Quran itself or at least not ONLY the quran because THE REMINDER was given to many prophets (according to what is written in the Quran)
Utter rubbish. The word the Quran uses is AZ-zikr, meaning a specific entity. So when al-quraan uses the word, we need to see the Quran itself for proof of what it is. Musa and Harun were also given AL-KITAAB (2/213) and al-furqaan. Al-furqaan is the Quran itself (25/1), so by your (sic) reasoning, Musa and Harun recieved the Quran as well?
As Joe points point, al-quraan is called DHI-DHIKR or posessor of al-zikr. Further to this, al-quraan is called 'tafseelul kitaab' (10/37) or the detailing of 'the book'. Therefore, to assert that Islam needs some other book is clearly denied by al-quraan. Albion has been shown the verses before regarding the completeness of the quran but of course, as in the case of trolls, needs to come back and repeat the story again and again. Its a shame FM practises such liberal policies.
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to assert that Islam needs some other book is clearly denied by al-quraan.
Try reading Muhammads Little Book (very little) sometime...
Ask them "Bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide THAN THESE TWO, I will follow it, if what you say be true!"
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SaLaM mquran
Are you saying that since the day of its revelation and up to this day, nothing in the Quran has been added or deleted?
Peace be upon you Jaxal
Perhaps it is our sloppy terminology which mquran has an issue with. Of course the Quran of God has not changed, but the book commonly called the 'Quran' by Sunnis, Shias and Muslims has.
Yet, this 'Quran' still seems, as far as I can see, to be free of error, erroneous statements etc. Therefore 'it' is unlikely to have been 'altered'
from the original to a large extent.
This is my current view and I think it is a common sense view. The Sunnis and the Shias through their backwardness and hostility to Islam lost the original Quran. This is what I believe 1591 may be referring to.
Roshan
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Try reading Muhammads Little Book (very little) sometime...
You have a problem with size? They have doctors for that too. If not, what has size to do with it?
Ask them "Bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide THAN THESE TWO, I will follow it, if what you say be true!"
Albion, you're very clever, I'll give u that. The number says 28/48-49 but you only quoted 49. Not very Academic, but then I can't expect much from your bible-toting self, can I?
Here's 28/48 for you, since you're now a great believer in al-quraan
But when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject which were formerly sent to Moses? They say "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say "For us, we reject all !
Now let me ask you what are the nine signs sent to Musa, o great believer in al-quraan?
There's 9 altogether.
So when they say '2 sorceries' (sihraan) they were referring to al-haqq,the truth and musa's signs. Were they talking about Torah and Gospel, albion ? We now have our 2 things.
Now we move on to 28/49 Say "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! if ye are truthful!"
So a book from Allah which guides better than al-quraan or the 9 signs of musa. Anywhere Torah, Gospel or its porno stories came in? Perhaps u'd like to import hadith here about Musa's own malaises. Anything to satisfy your craving for filth.
Al-quraan is not the kind of book where miscreants like yourself can find the expression of thier ideas. You need to go to the bible for that.
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Salaamun alaikum Roshan,
Perhaps it is our sloppy terminology which mquran has an issue with. Of course the Quran of God has not changed, but the book commonly called the 'Quran' by Sunnis, Shias and Muslims has.
Roshan, I dont have issues with terminology but with methodology. In Yemen some years ago, archeologists found a manuscript in the back of a mosque a manuscript predating most manuscripts. It gave another version of the Quran. Suddenly, the world was abuzz that the Quran now is fake. Why ? Because of one manuscript.
Lets do a Marty McFly here and go back there. Perhaps there was an Albion like person there who wrote a manuscript and sneakily placed it in the back of the mosque? How do we know all these things UNLESS we did a Marty McFly?
Its the same with all these manuscripts. People use them to justify all sorts of nonsense. Months ago, Ayman wanted to believe that instead of 'the romans were defeated' (30/1) , 'the romans defeated' so what did he do, he went back to the manuscripts. Did he think Allah was so blur that He would leave ambiguity between 'defeated' and 'was defeated'. This is the kind of misdeeds the Quran explicitly refutes when it says it was az-zikr, the one in EMINENCE. No one, not Warsh, not Rashad Khalifa, not any shia author or any Ansarite can never elevate thier versions of the Quran to the level of the Quran we have.
So Roshan, i apologise if this is untrue, but please don't believe in these 'academic methods' or 'literary criticism' nonsense. These theories are suspect in themselves.
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SaLaM mquran
So ur best defence is that its all a conspiracy? . Yes, everything is conspiracy mquran. Everything that ur mind is too small to understand is a conspiracy. Everything that you dont agree with is a conspiracy. roll
Roshan you actually bring up an excellent point.
Of course the Quran of God has not changed, but the book commonly called the 'Quran' by Sunnis, Shias and Muslims has.
If mquran had a clear mind while reading what i said, he would have understood that i dont mean it like complete verses have been re arranged. Rather, letters have been added. I was discussing this with a sunni friend of mine, and he said "why does it matter if a letter is added to the Quran to make it able to pronounce easily?" .I guess i have a problem with that.
In anycase, Im looking for verses from the Quran which say that Quran is a completel book. Can anyone find me such a verse?
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Peace,
I agree with Albion's initial point about the corruption, the book does refer to the reminder and I personally have not seen the reminder being defined as this particular book, as far as I am concerned the Most High can be referring to the continuous signs that unfold in our world and the Universe aswell as the reminders in history (such as the truths of religious books surviving through time).
I personally disagree with the concept of making a book, any book the ONLY source of guidance, it limits an individuals way of thinking and is not neccessarily the best way to live. Combining knowledge from other signs external from books would give a better grounding on things, plus the quran refers to signs external to the book and encourages the reader to seek by himself and to observe his/her surroundings and current situations.
For example there are stories in the book, and wars mentioned where the minority defeats the majority, throughout time this has happened, an individuals that just accepts without witnessing such an example would not be as certain as someone who spots this phenomenom. Plus the people that can relate situations to the book find better guidance and use for the book.
If you just absorb yourself into a text then your gonna become delusional, you need to keep in touch with reality and use the book to guide you through reality not live in a fantasy world that you have not verified and checked with reality. Blindly believing might be fine for some but certainty is always better for me.
Nural