Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi

Jaxal

SaLaM

Perhaps you could answer the simple question what system does the Quran exactly advocate?

That is a crucial question isnt it? A question that seems to elude the grasp of many people here.

O you who believe, you shall obey GOD, and you shall obey the messenger, and those in charge among you. If you dispute in any matter, you shall refer it to GOD and the messenger, if you do believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is better for you, and provides you with the best solution.

At the present time, there are no messengers of God walking around to whome we can go and refer things. So common sense, it seems, would dictate that we elect someone to lead us. Certainly it dont mean elect a tom dick or harry. You elect the one who you think is capable of leading you. And if that person lets you down, then you throw him out and get someone new. How hard is this grasp? Or is there a messenger hidden away somwhere that we are not aware of? roll

stillearning

Salaam
Here we go again!

I believe it is clear that the rasool or rusul are to be obeyed . Not the people

which rasul are we going to obey on policy regarding the enviorment, speed of cars on urban roads, motorways. Perhaps the rasoul could outline the regulations regarding planning permissions in city centres.
Very simple questions.
I cannot see how the references youhave given oppose democracy.

More importantly define your system of governance from the references you have given. If you are suggesting that the system is obeying the rasul then who is the rasul that we should be obeying?
regards

TheNabi

Peace,

So common sense, it seems, would dictate that we elect someone to lead us.

I'm not sure if this common sense fits in with the quranic criteria.

Where does Allah give anyone the authority to elect someone to lead them? Any examples in alquran?

Certainly it dont mean elect a tom dick or harry. You elect the one who you think is capable of leading you.

What criteria do you use to pick a leader? Capable according to what standards?

And if that person lets you down, then you throw him out and get someone new.

Is this endorsed by Allah?

I see there is a problem in the standards (of what a leader is) if an ineffective leader happens to be picked.

How hard is this grasp?

It's not hard for me to grasp. I do not see this as being in sync with quranic criteria.

Or is there a messenger hidden away somwhere that we are not aware of?

I doubt a rasool would be hiding. If he were faint hearted he should soon be lead back to his appointment.

Joe

KGB

Salaam Joe

I would like to discuss the matter of selection with you and MQuran wihout getting interrupted by ignorant munafiqeen.

Hope to have this discussion in near future. I pray Allah Taala grant you lots of patience but you need it when dealing with ignorant munafiqeen.

TheNabi

Peace,

Here we go again!

I hope I'm not annoying you. If so I shall stop my posts to you.

which rasul are we going to obey on policy regarding the enviorment, speed of cars on urban roads, motorways. Perhaps the rasoul could outline the regulations regarding planning permissions in city centres.

There is no which rasool to be obeyed. They must all be obeyed.

I cannot see how the references youhave given oppose democracy.

There is no majority decision on any matter.

More importantly define your system of governance from the references you have given.

Do you mean to explain in my own words what Jibril is stating in those ayatin?

If you are suggesting that the system is obeying the rasul then who is the rasul that we should be obeying?

The rasool who meets the standards of the quran. Please take a look at this article to see what I mean.

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=55527&highlight=#55527

Joe

stillearning

Don't worry about the harsh comments. Ignored.

wihout getting interrupted by ignorant munafiqeen

you need it when dealing with ignorant munafiqeen.

This means that you guys are allowed to throw all kinds of personal insults

All the idiots I met in life believe the same way like you guys who believe that they know everything.

consistent and without any contradictions? just like the rest of the discussion!

Jaxal

SaLaM

So the bottom line is... we dont know who the rusool is. it could be any guy walking down the road meeting the standards of the Quran . And if that is true then we should start obeying him... becoz that makes him a messenger ..... becoz the quran says that.

OR

We pick a guy who meets the criteria of the Quran in ways where he is a good leader. A storng leader, wise man, intelligent, able to run his kingdom properly. Ofcourse we will have to elect him to put him there but since Quran is against democracy i guess we will just let him keep walking down the street coz we dont have a clue how to put him in power. Since

Qur'an tells us that God will place the rulers on us

We should just wait for Allah to come down and somehow give him some kinda magic stick that will put him in power BECOZ WE CANT ELECT HIM BECOZ THE QURAN IS AGAINST A SYSTEM OF ELECTING PEOPLE.. Right.....

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAH rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl BAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHHHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH UN-BLUDDY-BELIEVABLE rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl

TheNabi

Peace Jaxal,

So the bottom line is... we dont know who the rusool is. it could be any guy walking down the road meeting the standards of the Quran . <cut>

We pick a guy who meets the criteria of the Quran in ways where he is a good leader

I believe you are wrong on both counts.

We will know who the rasool is.

It is not our place to pick a rasool.

I'm not sure how you came to such conslusions. Can you show me where the quran teaches the people will not know the rasool and where the people elect the rasool? I find this very strange. Perhaps I missed something that you picked up on?

Joe

unknownuser

Infact, i believe it was LT who said "Quran is ANTI -DEMOCRATIC. FULL STOP". So far, nothing from him or any of you to back that statment up or prove it.

Jaxal Jaxal, you still going on this? How many times do I have to tellyou that DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW are not compatible with DEMOCRACY where people make the laws. Do you not get this at all?

2] THE SIMPLEST OF QUESTIONS ARE NOT ANSWERED. For example, i asked LT if he will look at the Quran to run a country. I havent got any reply. Its amazing. By the way, this question is open for all of you "quran is anti-democratic" supporters.

Every society requires rules and regulations. In democracy the rules are devised by the people themselves and therefore you can't have DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS and DEMOCRACY...

But you Jaxal are happy to ignore DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS
and thats fine and we can get on with democracy -)

Regards,

Jaxal

SaLaM LT

LT LT how many times do i have to tell you that no one here is ignoring the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW . You look at the Quran as if its a book on "Running a country for Dummies". ITS NOT.

So im back to the original question to you LT

If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?

And no, dont take your time with the answer.... old chap wink

mquran

Salaamun alaikum KGB,

I would like to discuss the matter of selection with you and MQuran wihout getting interrupted by ignorant munafiqeen.

Hope to have this discussion in near future. I pray Allah Taala grant you lots of patience but you need it when dealing with ignorant munafiqeen.

The reason any disagreement exists in this case is because Al-quraan isn't allowed to take its place as the arbiter. How many times has Joe asked for evidence without avail ? What does that tell you?

The sad truth is, many of us are intoxicated with the beautiful slogans of 'democracy', 'human rights', 'tolerance' etc etc without realising that the words are meaningless unless one has power. Thanks to occidentosis, we percieve the acquisition of power as vulgar and allow ourselves to be ruled by al-kafireen.

Its best to leave those who don't want to be judged by the book of Allah, KGB.

Jaxal

It is funny, for the past 10 pages nothing but 'talk' has been given in support of Quran being anti-democratic. I think asking someone how to choose a leader using the Quran is too big of a responsibility. How about an even simpler question, thanks to LT.

Is quran a guide to running a country?

The answer, LIKE THE QUESTION, is simple and straight forward

Yes - Everything i need to know about running the country is in the Quran. We should run the country the way Allah intended us. By being ruled by a messenger. I mean, we dont know who the messenger is now, or where he lives or when he will come to power or IF he/she/it even exits I mean damn maybe its the guy sitting in front of me in the bus or maybe he is the guy who cleans the car at that hand wash carshop or maybe he is a piano player, but eventually this messenger will decide to come forword ....... hopefull ........ fx

OR

No.

TheNabi

Peace,

I think asking someone how to choose a leader using the Quran is too big of a responsibility.

I do not think it is a responsibility because Allah has not said it is up to the people to choose leaders for themselves. We do not pick who is to be rasoola Allah. It is Allah who chooses who has such an appointment.

Its best to leave those who don't want to be judged by the book of Allah, KGB.

Powerful/Positive words MQ. )

Joe

Ali_Omar

Hi,

There are two outer limits of administration in a community.

Absolute dictatorship, where ?total? power is on one hand.
Absolute anarchy, where ?total? power is given to each and every one.

In between these outer limits we have all kinds of solutions to govern a community, some of which are called democracies.

As we all know, a democracy is a rule of majority, and this majority, however small, has total power.
There may be direct democracy, where every single soul forming a majority has a say in every question that comes up, or through a representative body elected by the majority.
Whatever way a democracy is instituted, it is based on use of force in order to govern the community in the way the majority dictatorship deem beneficial for them selves. shock

The qur?an does not promote democracy in this manner. It has laid down absolute immutable laws which we are told to obey, and these laws are in agreement with the function, or the laws, of the Universe.
Islam actually promotes both outer limits mentioned above, total dictatorship and total anarchy at the same time. The perfect solution! ?

This is absolutely impossible to implement unless power is balanced off with responsibility.
We tend to see power as separated from responsibility, and that is how all our governing systems ?function? today. roll

Power to rule should automatically mean responsibility towards everything and every one in a community. This is what islam promotes, but we, the humans, can not, or do not, or do not want to, understand.

No leader, democratic or otherwise, in today?s World takes absolute responsibility for actions taken by him/her, or on behalf of him/her.
A political leader?s words ?I take the responsibility? is one of the most sickening jokes you may ever hear. Take any leader of a community and imagine him/her really taking responsibility for actions, or lack of the same, in any situation occurring in the community, where the leader has the power to avoid the situation, or to reduce its impact. ?

Just one small little detail left then, how to implement such a system? mrgreen
I am afraid there is no entity called God who is going to send us a leader, when this God decides to do so. I believe that we, and every one and everything around us, are parts of this God, and therefore we are also responsible for finding a leader. Nothing will happen unless we do it ourselves, so, what are we waiting for? ~0

Regards

Ali Omar

Jaxal

SaLaM Ali Omar

I am afraid there is no entity called God who is going to send us a leader, when this God decides to do so.

Indeed. I was reading the posts here and it suddenly come to mind. Its like a superhero syndrome. Where people are expecting to be 'saved' by this shining knight in armour kind of messenger who will come, take the throne and lift the 'muslims' out of the deep shit they are in today. This, to say the LEAST, is comical. Its like waiting for superman. or spiderman. or batman. or catwoman. Instead of standing up and taking responsibility, these lot want to wait to be resuced. Hence, not gonna happen. God help those who help themselves.

Just to address some of the points in your post

First of all, the democracy im talking about is nothing like that exists today. Im talking about a total Quranic democracy. This means the kind of democracy that Quran tells us about. The kind where people ARE responsible for their actions.

Secondly, the majority rule will only work as long as they agree with the Quran. If the majority agrees on raping or killing, then obviously that wont be accepted. IT HAS TO AGREE WITH THE QURAN. God has given us a moral code. NOT A GUIDE TO RUN A COUNTRY. People should accept that fact.

And you are right. The kind of democracy that is going around is not promoted by the Quran. The kind of democracy that Quran is promoting is much more better and peaceful and practicle.

unknownuser

Hi Guys,
its simple. some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!
That's where all the confusion lies.
i guess they believe God has stopped absolutely guiding Mankind since Quran.(for those who believe Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger).so, they believe any goodness, right stuff not mentioned in Quran is not right after all.
well, some others are waiting for fresh messengers.
cant there be guidance without messengers being sent now?

wonder where all the actual essence of the message(Quran) vanished?

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Ali Omar,

There are two outer limits of administration in a community.

Absolute dictatorship, where total power is on one hand.
Absolute anarchy, where total power is given to each and every one.

In between these outer limits we have all kinds of solutions to govern a community, some of which are called democracies.

I'd change the word 'administration' to 'distribution of power' but agreed, that's the spectrum of it.

As we all know, a democracy is a rule of majority, and this majority, however small, has total power.
There may be direct democracy, where every single soul forming a majority has a say in every question that comes up, or through a representative body elected by the majority.
Whatever way a democracy is instituted, it is based on use of force in order to govern the community in the way the majority dictatorship deem beneficial for them selves

Good analysis. I'm glad you point this out. This 'no compulsion' slogan has been misused time and time again by democrats. Just recently an old lady was jailed for refusing to pay the INCREMENT of her council tax. So much for democracies!

The quran does not promote democracy in this manner. It has laid down absolute immutable laws which we are told to obey, and these laws are in agreement with the function, or the laws, of the Universe.
Islam actually promotes both outer limits mentioned above, total dictatorship and total anarchy at the same time. The perfect solution!

Disagreed. Al-islaam authenticates the power of the messenger/king in a certain domain provided he acquired power in the manner prescribed. However, in all dimensions not mentioned, it leaves it to our discretion.

Just one small little detail left then, how to implement such a system?
I am afraid there is no entity called God who is going to send us a leader, when this God decides to do so. I believe that we, and every one and everything around us, are parts of this God, and therefore we are also responsible for finding a leader. Nothing will happen unless we do it ourselves, so, what are we waiting for?

We shouldn't wait at all. We should practise as much as we can from al-kitaab. It's not impossible for any of us to recieve revelation and begin the mission of ar-rasul. Shareef certainly thought he recieved it. In the mean time, just do as much amaalus salih as possible. Actualise the messenger from your own nafs.

looking forward to your comments

stillearning

salaam mquran or anyone who might care to answer this question without going of another tangent

Good analysis. I'm glad you point this out. This 'no compulsion' slogan has been misused time and time again by democrats. Just recently an old lady was jailed for refusing to pay the INCREMENT of her council tax. So much for democracies!

Any country or society needs rule, millions of them. For example what speed we drive cars, how many people in a given space govern fire hazard, if someone commits arson what evidence is required and what penalities should be available. Can you simply explain to me how in November 8th 2005 you or anyone are going to produce rules for above to function a given society or country. To keep matters simple let us just keep the discussion to three examples I have mentioned
regards

mquran

Wasalam Stillearning,

Any country or society needs rule, millions of them. For example what speed we drive cars, how many people in a given space govern fire hazard, if someone commits arson what evidence is required and what penalities should be available. Can you simply explain to me how in November 8th 2005 you or anyone are going to produce rules for above to function a given society or country. To keep matters simple let us just keep the discussion to three examples I have mentioned
regards

Before we do that, can I please ask you this as it has relevance to the proceeding discussion

Why is it OK for 'society' to FORCE rule on people yet when we speak of an islamic domain, the 'no compulsion' rule is mentioned? Isnt a democracy meant to ensure freedom of choice?

You mentioned 3 examples. May I ask where? i can seem to find them.

stillearning

salaam mquran

Before we do that, can I please ask you this as it has relevance to the proceeding discussion

page 11 and we still have not grasped this question let me as simple as possible
(i) Discussion was that the quran is anti-democratci
(ii) Democracy is a form of governing system (good or bad is another issue)
(iii) We need some form of governing system today on 8th novemeber 2005- yes orn no will be sufficent
(iv) If we do require some form of the governing system then the examples i have given require rules for any given country or society
(v) Explain please how your given system will form rules for the examples that i have given

You mentioned 3 examples. May I ask where? i can seem to find them.

Thre mentioned examples are

For example what speed we drive cars, how many people in a given space govern fire hazard, if someone commits arson what evidence is required and what penalities should be available

(a) Most people i know drive cars - so we need rules to govern their speed- is this a difficult point to understand

(b) I work for a big institution, which has big buildings and many people are present in these buildings at a given time. Rules are required how these buildings should be adapted and the number of people in any given building at a given time for their own physical safety

(c) There are criminal elements in any given society if anyone commits arson then society will require minimal proof to asses their guilt or innocence and also what penalties, punishment should be available.

To find examples of these please (a) Drive a car on any given road
(b) Go to any big public building and ask to see the safety rules
(3) deliberately set fire to your own house and see what happens.

i hope this is all simple enough
regards