"Why Pray If I Don't Get Much Out of It?"
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Salaam Samir,
And Allah loves those who loves His Messenger (s).
Not those who cry lies to the rasool. Then again, you've not even put up a defense. Or is this all the defense you have left of your inordinancies?
There was no attempt by me to nullify an ayah; I already said clearly that it is a general statement.
I showed you that it was not.
The other ayaat I quote are more specific... unless if you are trying to nullify them.
No I did not nullify them at all. I showed you the essence to their meanings which you have distorted. Allah tells us which is the judgement and how one should judge. Therefore in order to follow the judgement of these authorities we have a clearcut understanding as to what those judgements must fall under. Allah's.
How would you explain this 'contradiction' then?
Of your mind. Not sure. Maybe it was the way you were brought up. You know, follow the leader and all.
You are the one who has just made a contradiction of Qur'an unless if you understand it the way it is supposed to be understood (i.e., using the ahadith).
No I did not. You are the one here making your assertions and have not shown me in the quran where your formulas come into play. Do you not know it is sinful to falsely associate things to Allah?
I have just trapped you in a corner; if you cannot get out of this one, all our arguments are over and I have apparently won the victory and you must submit to not only the laws of Allah, but also the instructions He gave to our Prophet (s) to expand from his mouth (i.e., ahadith).
This is the utterance/word/qawl of an honourable messenger.
Then you say submit not only to the laws/hukman of Allah, but the instructions of the nabiyy. Are there two seperate law-giving jurisdictions? How so? What do you mean? Are you clear?
Joe
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What would ibrahim do?
He would
- be tested by Gods concepts AND fulfil them (2/124)
- be elevated to the imam of mankind (2/125)
not wasting his time going up and down.
Wait a moment!... you're not suggesting that ibrahim upheld 'salaat' without guidance from "muhammad's hadith" now... are you? wink -
Salaam,
What makes Samir's position sort of funny is that he probably is a hadeeth rejector. I'm sure there's some ahadeeth out there in the ulema's libraries that you do not believe in or reject. Likewise he wants to reject some of the ayatin/signs of Allah.
Joe
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Slm Samir,
That's why we have to do da'wah to Muslims.
We have to call HUMANKIND to Ibada. Differentiating them according to artificial backgrounding is racist.
You didn't read my statement correctly. I was saying there are many ahadith which support the view that the wrath of Allah is on those who turn their backs to the Qur'an; this is also mentioned in the Qur'an.
Ok, but the messenger, as a messenger cannot recite anything else. That'd get him killed.
Agreed. That's why we establish a state that includes the Qur'an and Sunnah as the laws of the land
The sunnah ARE man-made laws.
So I'm guessing you would disagree with the last ayah of Surah al Hajj? Perhaps, you would even say its 'abrogated'
Why would I say that?
Even then, all the past nations were destroyed by Allah for not sticking to the truth such as 'Aad, Loot, Firaun and so on. The Qur'an talks about this a lot. Nations are judged at the collective level, not the individual level; if it were the individual level, then that would be insane because we have no control over each and every individual; but we do have control of what goes on in public (if we rule the land).
You're right ONCE as-saat/the hour of judgement comes. If we die before that, we're not part of the failing system especially if we worked against it.
What do you then recite in Salaat? Do you recite Qur'an at all? Then you are no different than a Christian or Jew; why don't you join them and pray like them? I don't think you even looked at the ayaat because these ayaat already refuted your statement
I've read the ayat and nowhere does any say salaat in Arabic. I do recite al-quraan in arabic, but that's not necessary. I'd rather not pray like the Christians, all the Jesus talk tends to bug me.
- When you pray Salaat, you have to recite Qur'an; otherwise, it is not Salaat. If you recite Qur'an in your native tongue, it is as if you are denying this favor of Allah to recite the Qur'an in Arabic.
Have to? please provide evidence.
Bottom line These ayaat further prove that this Qur'an had to be sent down in Arabic and no other language on the face of the earth for a very special purpose. You will only understand this purpose when you understand Arabic of Qur'an in depth. It will blow your mind away.
I better start reading al-quraan then. Dunno what I've been doing the past decade or so...
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And Allah loves those who loves His Messenger
We love the messenger. God loves us! D . And we dont have to follow the ahadith to love the messenger.
Then how do you follow him? Does the Qur'an give a deeper description on how to follow him or the ahadith? Simple question.
Samir
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Not those who cry lies to the rasool. Then again, you've not even put up a defense. Or is this all the defense you have left of your inordinancies?
Not one person has yet given strong proof as to why they shouldn't follow ahadith; so far, it's all emotions. No solid proof yet.
No I did not nullify them at all. I showed you the essence to their meanings which you have distorted. Allah tells us which is the judgement and how one should judge. Therefore in order to follow the judgement of these authorities we have a clearcut understanding as to what those judgements must fall under. Allah's.
How would you explain this 'contradiction' then?
Of your mind. Not sure. Maybe it was the way you were brought up. You know, follow the leader and all.
You are the one who has just made a contradiction of Qur'an unless if you understand it the way it is supposed to be understood (i.e., using the ahadith).
No I did not. You are the one here making your assertions and have not shown me in the quran where your formulas come into play. Do you not know it is sinful to falsely associate things to Allah?
Yes, you did make a grave contradiction by rejecting the ahadith; if you reject the context/understanding of the ayaat, you'll find yourself in trouble with contradictions. Let me replay that argument, and make it crystal clear where the contradiction lies
- You quoted/summarized the ayaat
Only under the umbrella of the judgement of Allah
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What do these ayaat say? It says, those who do not judge by Allah's laws are Faasiq, Dhalim, and Kaafir.
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I don't disagree with the ayaat at all. I am in complete agreement.
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I said these ayaat are general because Allah is the King of the Kings; obviously, we accept His rule above anyone elses.
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If there is a hadith that contradicts an ayah, the hadith is weak; unless if it's there for abrogation explanation.
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There are two main types of Revelation that the Scholars unanimously agree upon
a. Wahi al Jalee - Revelation from Allah that is in the Qur'an
b. Wahi al Khafee - Revelation from Allah that is not in the Qur'an; these are mostly instructions and informals to the Prophet (saw) -
There is also the Ijtihaad of the Prophet (saw); this is where he would make a decision, that is recorded in the ahadith, without transgressing the law of Allah.
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Therefore, those ahadith that do not contradict Qur'an are accepted as part of the Shari'ah. Why?
a. Because Allah says in many places to "Obey Allah, and Obey the Messenger"; incorporating those ahadith into Islamic Law that are in harmony with Qur'an is a form of obeying the Messenger.
b. Wahi al Khafee.
c. Ijithaad of the Prophet (saw) so that it may benefit the future generations. -
Now, time for the contradiction. Let's recap. You quoted the ayah that we cannot judge other than Allah's rule and there is no exception; we cannot even incorporate the ahadith in Allah's rule. Then I quoted a few ayaat implying that in order to "Obey the Messenger" you have to refer back to what he said since the ayah says, "refer it to Allah and His Messenger". Here's the ayah again
459 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
- In order to refer to Allah, you go back to the words of Allah which is the Qur'an. In order to refer to His Messenger, you have to go back to the words of... what? His Sunnah. The ahadith of the Prophet (saw).
That should be pretty crystal clear now.
This is the utterance/word/qawl of an honourable messenger.
Then you say submit not only to the laws/hukman of Allah, but the instructions of the nabiyy. Are there two seperate law-giving jurisdictions? How so? What do you mean? Are you clear?
No, they are together as long as the ahadith are in harmony with the Qur'an. Refer to the ayah 459 which I quoted above. The ayah you just quoted is referring to Wahi al Jalee; we cannot neglect the Wahi al Khafee.
Samir
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SaLaM Joe
Every sunni rejects one or the other hadith from the sahih bukhari series. They literally pick and choose which hadith they want to beleive.
No, the Scholars prove the authenticity/weakness of a hadith through its isnaad and matn. It's a Scientific approach to the ahadith.
Samir
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We have to call HUMANKIND to Ibada. Differentiating them according to artificial backgrounding is racist.
I replied to your statement in regards to Muslims; that's why I said da'wah to Muslims. Of course I agree that we have to do da'wah to humanity. The Qur'an says we have to.
Ok, but the messenger, as a messenger cannot recite anything else. That'd get him killed.
No. Read my thing on the Wahi al Khafee
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=56729#56729
The sunnah ARE man-made laws.
- Prove it.
- Wahi al Khafee.
I've read the ayat and nowhere does any say salaat in Arabic. I do recite al-quraan in arabic, but that's not necessary. I'd rather not pray like the Christians, all the Jesus talk tends to bug me.
- When you pray Salaat, you have to recite Qur'an; otherwise, it is not Salaat. If you recite Qur'an in your native tongue, it is as if you are denying this favor of Allah to recite the Qur'an in Arabic.
When I said "Why don't you join the Christians and Jews" I was implying that what's the point of not praying like how all the Muslims pray both today and in the past; our Salah has never changed. This new version of Salah you bring up is bid'ah or an innovation. If it were permissible to have these kind of innovations, then this Deen would be screwed up from bottom to top. That's why the Qur'an says
459 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
Meaning, we stick to the rules of Qur'an and Sunnah. As long as a hadith is in harmony with Qur'an, we accept. If not, then the hadith is rejected.
Samir
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No, the Scholars prove the authenticity/weakness of a hadith through its isnaad and matn. It's a Scientific approach to the ahadith.
Samir you are talking to a former sunni. I was more of a sunni than you can ever be. And i left that piece of crap sect to come to become a REAL muslim. I KNOW what the sunnis do and dont do. Sunnis choose and reject hadiths as it suits them. I would beleive you if i wasnt a sunni. Unfortunately for you, i was.
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No, the Scholars prove the authenticity/weakness of a hadith through its isnaad and matn. It's a Scientific approach to the ahadith.
Samir you are talking to a former sunni. I was more of a sunni than you can ever be. And i left that piece of crap sect to come to become a REAL muslim. I KNOW what the sunnis do and dont do. Sunnis choose and reject hadiths as it suits them. I would beleive you if i wasnt a sunni. Unfortunately for you, i was.
No, you are referring to the Muslims that follow their desires instead of following the truth. Yes, these Muslims exists in Sunnism, Shiasm and all over the world. Whatever doesn't suit their desire, they reject and this is completely un-Islamic. You are not supposed to fix this situation by running away from it. No. You have to help the Muslims; teach them Qur'an, the Sunnah, and relate it to their lives, strive to purify them, train them, give them brotherhood, give them activism and so on. Make them love this ayah with all their hearts
924 Say If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, and His Messenger, and striving in His cause;- then wait until Allah brings about His decision and Allah guides not the rebellious.
Samir
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SamirI replied to your statement in regards to Muslims; that's why I said da'wah to Muslims. Of course I agree that we have to do da'wah to humanity. The Qur'an says we have to.
How are 'muslims' different from the rest of humanity?
No. Read my thing on the Wahi al Khafee
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=56729#56729
Sure. Read Allah's thing on 'no such thing as wahi jalli or khafi'
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day(10/15)
Let me formulate this for you
- God's clear ayaat are recited
- Those who believe not say
- Bring us a quran other than this
- or change this one!
- Muhammad replied 'I CANT CHANGE IT, I FOLLOW WHATS REVEALED'.
so what's 'revealed' unto Muhammad ?
you tell me...
When I said "Why don't you join the Christians and Jews" I was implying that what's the point of not praying like how all the Muslims pray both today and in the past; our Salah has never changed. This new version of Salah you bring up is bid'ah or an innovation. If it were permissible to have these kind of innovations, then this Deen would be screwed up from bottom to top. That's why the Qur'an says
Even if it hasn't changed, so what? I still need to take it to al-furqaan. Only with al-furqaan can i ascertain if its from Allah.
459 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
Meaning, we stick to the rules of Qur'an and Sunnah. As long as a hadith is in harmony with Qur'an, we accept. If not, then the hadith is rejected
.Well done. How does the messenger judge?
To thee We sent THE BOOK IN TRUTH, confirming that came before it, and guarding it in safety SO JUDGE BETWEEN THEM WITH WHAT GOD HAS REVEALED AND FOLLOW NOT YOUR DESIRES, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee
(5/48 )Samir, Allah never mentioned sunnah here. He said either you judge with the book or you judge with ur desires. As simple as that.
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I keep having these strange thoughts any one know why? xx(xx(
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How are 'muslims' different from the rest of humanity?
How can you claim to follow the Qur'an and not know the answer to this? Read Ayah al Birr (2177) and you'll understand how we are different.
Sure. Read Allah's thing on 'no such thing as wahi jalli or khafi'
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day(10/15)
Let me formulate this for you
- God's clear ayaat are recited
- Those who believe not say
- Bring us a quran other than this
- or change this one!
- Muhammad replied 'I CANT CHANGE IT, I FOLLOW WHATS REVEALED'.
so what's 'revealed' unto Muhammad ?
you tell me...
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I gave you straight up facts from the Scholars who studied their whole lives; you gave me rhetoric from your desires.
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Who said that Muhammad (s) said things with his desires. This is the most illogical idea I have seen in a long time. Why? Just look at your baseless argument
a. The Qur'an confirms that Muhammad (s) never judges with his desires.
b. Okay, you argue that there is no such thing as Sunnah; it was all Qur'an, Qur'an, Qur'an (and if you disagree with this point, that means you agree that there is a Sunnah).
c. If so, did Muhammad (s) speak other than the Qur'an? Meaning, were the only words to come out of his mouth from Prophethood till his death were ayaat?
d. If you say yes, then you can even be proven wrong by non-Muslim historians; that's pretty sad dude.
e. If you say no, then you are accepting ahadith; the only reason why you deny ahadith is because you don't take the time to talk to the Scholars or learn from them the ahadith that are in the books.
Even if it hasn't changed, so what? I still need to take it to al-furqaan. Only with al-furqaan can i ascertain if its from Allah.
Then you might as well change everything else about this Deen. You can start looking at Pornography on the computer. You can start buying haram entertainment. And so on. Why? Because the Qur'an doesn't mention it! Therefore, I don't have to follow it! You have taken a total literalist approach to Islam which is terrible because you'll come up with depressing interpretations.
Well done. How does the messenger judge?
To thee We sent THE BOOK IN TRUTH, confirming that came before it, and guarding it in safety SO JUDGE BETWEEN THEM WITH WHAT GOD HAS REVEALED AND FOLLOW NOT YOUR DESIRES, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee(5/48 )
lol I can see why you didn't quote the entire ayah. You left out the most important part! Take a look at what I have in bold
To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a methodology. If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ. (54
The part of the ayah that's in bold uses the words "Shir'ata" and "Minhaaja". The word "Shir'ata" comes from the word "Shari'ah"; you guess right law. And the word "Minhaaja" comes from the word "Manhaj" which means methodology or path. What am I saying here?
Allah is saying in this ayah that He has prescribed a Shari'ah (law) and Manhaj (methodology) to each Prophet of Allah, including Muhammad (saw). What was the manhaj of Musa? It was the wahi that was revealed to him (i.e., who told him to split the sea in two? The 10 commandments? Not at all. It was revelation from Allah). What was Musa's Shari'ah? It was the Torah.
Now, what was Muhammad's (saw) manhaj? Qur'an? Not entirely, because we know many incidents in the lifetime of the Prophet (saw) where he did/said things that were not mentioned in the Qur'an. For example, how did he conduct war? Did he just quote an ayah from Qur'an on fighting and magically everyone was physically prepared, trained, standing in rows, with a default strategy and an army general? Of course not! It was Wahi al Khafee as well as from the mouth of the Prophet (saw) from the discussions he had with the Sahaba.
What was the Shari'ah that was prescribed to Muhammad (saw)? It was both Qur'an and Sunnah; Sunnah because it was Wahi al Khafee (which I just proved it to be true in the aforementioned paragraph).
Samir, Allah never mentioned sunnah here. He said either you judge with the book or you judge with ur desires. As simple as that.
- Are you claiming Muhammad judged with his desires (which the Qur'an confirms that he didn't)?
- If not, then how do you explain Wahi al Khafee (which again, I proved above)?
Samir
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Salaam Samir
you stated
c. If so, did Muhammad (s) speak other than the Qur'an? Meaning, were the only words to come out of his mouth from Prophethood till his death were ayaat?
d. If you say yes, then you can even be proven wrong by non-Muslim historians; that's pretty sad dude.
e. If you say no, then you are accepting ahadith; the only reason why you deny ahadith is because you don't take the time to talk to the Scholars or learn from them the ahadith that are in the books.R u saying that if one accepts that the prophet pronounced other than quran during his lifetime then he has to accept hadith ? If that's the case your argumentation is really weak. If i got you wrong please explain.
LK