who is a messenger of God?

TheNabi

Peace,

The Best sign of a messenger is the practical quality of his life based on the principles of the Book, for, he aught not to preach what he do not practise.

I agree with you on this. It is very important that people recognize the rasool not only by way of preaching, teaching, and helping the people towards betterment, but also by his own implementation of the quranic criteria.

Joe

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Joe,

I think this is tilaawatul kitaab means in 3/164. Careful practice of the book. So the messenger MUST do as he preaches.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Peaceful Muslim,

u r very right. all knowledge is from God. all wisdom is from God. all forms of goodness is from God. and recieving them from God makes us good human beings and not messengers of God.
According to ur definition, all human beings are messengers of God.

No, you have to recieve KNOWLEDGE first, MOST people only guess. KNOWLEDGE can be proven, guessing requires no proof.

well, propably the confusion here is becoz we differ in our definitions of a 'messenger of God'

my definition would be-- a messenger is one who conveys God's words to His people.

Same as mine. God's words are TRUTH, proveable knowledge.

If u see Quran,God is seen addressing the people and the prophet.
Thus a messenger is acting for God. The purpose of the messenger is to convey God's message. the message has nothing to do with the messenger. he just carries and conveys it to the people.

Yes, and we ALL should be conveying the God's message. Most of us are following the example of Jonah, running from the duty. Or are unaware of how they are messengers becuase we have been taught that messengers are some superheroes from Middle East only, from the past only.

Jaxal

I think this is tilaawatul kitaab means in 3/164. Careful practice of the book.

tilaawatul kitaab means 'recetation of the book' and its not in

unknownuser

Hi Idolfree1,

u r very right. all knowledge is from God. all wisdom is from God. all forms of goodness is from God. and recieving them from God makes us good human beings and not messengers of God.
According to ur definition, all human beings are messengers of God.

No, you have to recieve KNOWLEDGE first, MOST people only guess. KNOWLEDGE can be proven, guessing requires no proof.

and can u eloborate what kind of knowledge should one recieve to be a messenger.
and yeah, are all scientists messengers of God? coz they can prove science?)

well, propably the confusion here is becoz we differ in our definitions of a 'messenger of God'

my definition would be-- a messenger is one who conveys God's words to His people.

Same as mine. God's words are TRUTH, proveable knowledge.

i think u misunderstood my statement. by God's words, i meant God adressing mankind directly. if u see Quran, Allah is adressing mankind or adressing the prophet.

If u see Quran,God is seen addressing the people and the prophet.
Thus a messenger is acting for God. The purpose of the messenger is to convey God's message. the message has nothing to do with the messenger. he just carries and conveys it to the people.

Yes, and we ALL should be conveying the God's message. Most of us are following the example of Jonah, running from the duty. Or are unaware of how they are messengers becuase we have been taught that messengers are some superheroes from Middle East only, from the past only.

Messengers of God are not necessarily superheroes from middle east.
they are normal human beings but have been choosen by Allah to convey His message.
we can live a good life and convey message of goodness/righteousness around us, but that wont make us messengers of God.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Peaeful Muslim,

Idolfree1
No, you have to recieve KNOWLEDGE first, MOST people only guess. KNOWLEDGE can be proven, guessing requires no proof.

PM
and can u eloborate what kind of knowledge should one recieve to be a messenger.
and yeah, are all scientists messengers of God? coz they can prove science?

ANY knowledge, ANYTHING that can be proven as true. There is NOTHING outside the realm of the God. An example of some knowledge is how the good response is not equal to the bad response. We can see the PROOF of this knowledge by looking at the forum. We can see how the bad responses create an avalanche of negativity.

That is a small example.

Yes, a true scientist is a messenger when he delivers truth, ONLY at the time of delivery. Messenger is a description of the person performing that act. Not title for a human being.

idolfree1 wrote
well, propably the confusion here is becoz we differ in our definitions of a 'messenger of God'

PM
my definition would be-- a messenger is one who conveys God's words to His people.

IF
Same as mine. God's words are TRUTH, proveable knowledge.

i think u misunderstood my statement. by God's words, i meant God adressing mankind directly. if u see Quran, Allah is addressing mankind or adressing the prophet.

Well, I must disagree with your understanding. The God's words are EVERYTHING in the Universe. The God says "be" and it becomes, everything is the God's word! D Remember, the God says in this reading that "we will show YOU the signs in the horizons and within our spirits/minds(nafs) until you know it is the truth". So the God's words are the entire Universe. Our job is to discover the laws, which is that which is proveable.

Yes, and we ALL should be conveying the God's message. Most of us are following the example of Jonah, running from the duty. Or are unaware of how they are messengers becuase we have been taught that messengers are some superheroes from Middle East only, from the past only.

Messengers of God are not necessarily superheroes from middle east.
they are normal human beings but have been choosen by Allah to convey His message.
we can live a good life and convey message of goodness/righteousness around us, but that wont make us messengers of God.

You better make sure. The God says that YOU are one of the messengers. Take away the shackles of the mind that we all have been taught. You have to make this message apply. We have to get out of this mindset that messenegrs are from middle east from the past. NO, we are alive and well, all of us, and we must step up to the plate. Deliver the truth which is proveable. Dont wait for some being to fly from out of the sky to stand on a mountaintop and say "do this, dont do that" we have the LAW right in front of out faces, deliver it. D

wildguest1956

Peace idolfree1

But "messenger" is not a title, it is an action of a human being. If the human is not delivering the message either verbally or by example, then this description does not apply.

Yes, this is also what I stated. A messenger is one who delivers a message. A messenger of the God takes the TRUTH and delivers it.

Its not about giving someone a TITLE, its about the information itself. When someone speaks TRUTH they are a messenger, any other time, they are not a messenger. Further, one does not have to pick between people, anyone can be a messenger, you probably recieve the message all day long and not realize it. For example, if you are a smoker and 4 people during the course of your day tell you that smoking is bad for your health and explian OBJECTIVELY exactly how it effects your vehicle(body), then you have just beenvisited by 4 messengers.

To be clear, I have not give ANYONE the title of messenger, only those who speak TRUTH are messengers ONLY AT THE TIME THEY ARE GIVING TRUTH, otherwise the true messenger remains within man waiting to be uncovered.

Yes, a true scientist is a messenger when he delivers truth, ONLY at the time of delivery. Messenger is a description of the person performing that act. Not title for a human being.

Could you quote a verse of the quran about an idolater (or any non-muslim person) said to be a messenger because at some time he has told something true ?

So, how can I be sure I am receiving inspiration from God ?

Excellent question!! This is the key to it all. The God explains that if there is something from "Him", that it can be VERIFIED! So what yuo do is take the information and TEST IT! If it is Truth, it will work everytime, if not it is not Truth.

If someone claim that pork is halal, how should I verify it ? What is the criterion ?

Can we not conclude from this verse that a messenger has to be inspired by God ?

Yes, a messeger of the God is one who speaks Truth, we must first recieve the truth before we can deliver it. The people should not be suprised that the God informs those who strive with the correct understanding of things. The God is near and answers the call.

Lets go back to the word KNOWLEDGE, it means that something is KNOWN(therefore can be proven). When someone recieves knowledge from within, that is prophecy, when one spreads that knowledge, that is messengership.

So, a messenger is by definition a prophet , right ?

Peace

wildguest1956

Peace mquran,

Is it a matter of wonderment to men that We have sent Our inspiration to a man from among themselves?- that he should warn mankind (of their danger), and give the good news to the Believers that they have before their Lord the lofty rank of truth. (But) say the Unbelievers "This is indeed an evident sorcerer!" (10/2)

So yes, a messenger should be under 'wahi' from Allah.

There's nowhere in al-quraan where it says ar-rasool brings a new book. Ar-rasool are sent by Allah with specific functions in mind (3/164, 59/7, 48/2

So, you think

There can be other messengers after Muhammad
A messenger is under wahi from God

We know that God has transmitted to Muhammad the quran (a new book) By wahi,.

So, why would another messenger who would come after Muhammad not bring a new book (if he is under wahi) ?
What would this wahi from God bring him ?

Take a look at 3/84 for a sec please

Qul Aamaana billahi wa maa UNZILA ALAINA....
Say We believe in Allah and in what is revealed ON US....

This is a command from al-quraan. Therefore, if we recieve inzal/revelation from Allah, we are to believe in it.

How can someone know he is receiving revelations from God ?

I and PB are claiming that we are messengers of God.
So, we are both able to receive revelations from God.

I say that the flesh of swine is haram, and OB says it is hallal.
We both say we have got this information by inspiration from God.

How would you choose between us ?

Maybe you are going to answer "the good opinion is the one who can be backed up the quran".

Hehe, you know it. Al-quraan is a book which tells you even how to read it. With Priest's discourse about the swine, it was easy to see the non-quranic assumptions he made.

OK, you will check in the quran.
But how did people living at the times of Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, or Abraham do (without the quran) to know they were messengers of God ?

If you told me that your revelation supercedes al-quraan, I'd have to ask you to produce something like al-quraan. A coherent discourse to guide humanity. In fact, this has been done before. Have you heard of Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism? He claimed to have recieved revelation as well. Check out his 'book of mormonism', if you like.

Bahaullah, MGA also left texts but once again, you will find them unable to produce anything like al-quraan.

Why do you think the book of mormonism is not a coherent discourse to guide humanity ?
Could you argue ? What are your criteria ?
Same question about the writings of Bahaullah...
The bahai think it supersedes the quran. Why don't you agree with them ? What are your criteria ?

Let's assume you are living at some time before the revelation of the quran.
How would you have judged the teachings of Jesus, Mo?se, Abraham, and so on... ?
How would you have judged the teachings of Zarathushtra, Bouddha, and so on... ?

Let's assume someone (say idolfree) come to us, claims he is a messenger, and expose a discourse to guide humanity better the the quran (which supersedes it). Will you follow him and deem the quran as outdated ?

In order to do that, you must live according the book, teach the book and wisdom and facilitate growth.

What is concretely "the book" ?

Peace

mquran

So, you think

There can be other messengers after Muhammad
A messenger is under wahi from God

This is my belief, correct.

We know that God has transmitted to Muhammad the quran (a new book) By wahi

We can only know this by a logical deduction as follows

al-quraan exists in the world
al-quraan comes from Allah to a messenger
the messenger must have recieved al-quraan at a point in time before us.

I don't think the correct word is 'wahi' but 'inzaal'.

So, why would another messenger who would come after Muhammad not bring a new book (if he is under wahi) ?
What would this wahi from God bring him ?

Why would he need to bring a new book if one already exists? Wahi doesn't refer to recieving a 'new' book. The concept of a 'new book' doesn't exist in al-quraan.

How can someone know he is receiving revelations from God ?

42/51-52 It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills for He is Most High, Most Wise And thus have We, by Our Command, sent inspiration to thee thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and what was Faith; but We have made the (Qur'an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily thou dost guide (men) to the Straight Way,-

So God's inspiration brings about faith, light and guidance.

OK, you will check in the quran.
But how did people living at the times of Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, or Abraham do (without the quran) to know they were messengers of God ?

I don't know because I live in a time where a book exists. Al-quraan doesn't tell me of the process of a book 'replacement' process.

Why do you think the book of mormonism is not a coherent discourse to guide humanity ?
Could you argue ? What are your criteria ?
Same question about the writings of Bahaullah...
The bahai think it supersedes the quran. Why don't you agree with them ? What are your criteria ?

My criteria is based upon my perception of the human being. I believe humans are a certain way in the world and I believe al-quraan is the best discourse to evolutionise them. Of course this is debatable as no one else can share my exact perception as no one can share anyone elses.

Let's assume you are living at some time before the revelation of the quran.
How would you have judged the teachings of Jesus, Mo?se, Abraham, and so on... ?
How would you have judged the teachings of Zarathushtra, Bouddha, and so on... ?

I don't know because I live in a time where a book exists.

Let's assume someone (say idolfree) come to us, claims he is a messenger, and expose a discourse to guide humanity better the the quran (which supersedes it). Will you follow him and deem the quran as outdated ?

It depends if he can supercede al-quraan or not.

What is concretely "the book" ?

The book is God's writ for the human being. It contains the laws by which the human being can evolve and transcend decline and death.

unknownuser

Peace all. Anyone who delivers a message of truth is a messenger(deliverer) or nabi.(informer.) The quran is one book or version about truth,there were others before(torah,bible,bhagvad gita etc..) and there will be others after as well.(maybe baihullahs book,science,new knowledge etc..) The previous and future books do not necessarily make the quran obselete,they just reiterate what was said earlier or make new discoveries/further clarifications. Revelation is an ongoing process.
Peace all.

TheNabi

Peace

The rasool is not a mere postman.

Joe

unknownuser

Peace nabi and all. Maybe the word 'deliverer' does not adequately convey the word rasool(or messenger.) How about 'instructor'?
Being a 'postman' is not what i was trying to convey. What are your thoughts on what a rasool and nabi are? Thanks.
Peace.

wildguest1956

So, you think

There can be other messengers after Muhammad
A messenger is under wahi from God

This is my belief, correct.

OK

We know that God has transmitted to Muhammad the quran (a new book) By wahi

We can only know this by a logical deduction as follows

al-quraan exists in the world
al-quraan comes from Allah to a messenger
the messenger must have recieved al-quraan at a point in time before us.

I think it can be assesed with the 3 following verses

And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.

With clarity and the Psalms. And We sent down to you the Reminder to make clear to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think.

And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.

I don't think the correct word is 'wahi' but 'inzaal'.

I don't.

It is true the word inzaal is used for the quran, but it is used for many other things.

And among His Signs in this thou seest the earth barren and desolate; but when We send down anzalna rain to it, it is stirred to life and yields increase. Truly, He Who gives life to the (dead) earth can surely give life to (men) who are dead. For He has power over all things.

After (the excitement) of the distress, He sent down anzala calm on a band of you overcome with slumber

Yet, the real question still remains what is exactly wahi ?

So, why would another messenger who would come after Muhammad not bring a new book (if he is under wahi) ?
What would this wahi from God bring him ?

Why would he need to bring a new book if one already exists? Wahi doesn't refer to recieving a 'new' book. The concept of a 'new book' doesn't exist in al-quraan.

It seems to me that you are playing with words.

We have inspired (awhayna) you as We have inspired (awhayna) Noah and the prophets after him. And We inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and Jesus, and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and We have given David the Psalms.

Muhammad was inspired with the same thing as Noah, Abraham, etc...
What did God inspire to him ?

And thus We have inspired awhayna to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.

So, if, after Muhammad, there are other messengers, why would they not be inspired their own reading (maybe in their own language) ?

How can someone know he is receiving revelations from God ?

42/51-52 It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills for He is Most High, Most Wise And thus have We, by Our Command, sent inspiration to thee thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and what was Faith; but We have made the (Qur'an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily thou dost guide (men) to the Straight Way,-

So God's inspiration brings about faith, light and guidance.

Let's assume that.
Are you writing with God's inspiration ?
What have been the books written with God's inspiration since the quran ?

OK, you will check in the quran.
But how did people living at the times of Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, or Abraham do (without the quran) to know they were messengers of God ?

I don't know because I live in a time where a book exists. Al-quraan doesn't tell me of the process of a book 'replacement' process.

Al-quraan tells many things about how it supersedes the previous revelations.
Before the quran, there was the torah and the injeel. So, there were books.
The jews living at the time of Muhammad have refused to abandon the torah and accept the quran.
Do you never fear to be like them, when you refuse to follow the teachings of Bahaullah for example ?

Why do you think the book of mormonism is not a coherent discourse to guide humanity ?
Could you argue ? What are your criteria ?
Same question about the writings of Bahaullah...
The bahai think it supersedes the quran. Why don't you agree with them ? What are your criteria ?

My criteria is based upon my perception of the human being. I believe humans are a certain way in the world and I believe al-quraan is the best discourse to evolutionise them. Of course this is debatable as no one else can share my exact perception as no one can share anyone elses.

So, it is your subjective faith.
It is not 100% based on reason.

Let's assume you are living at some time before the revelation of the quran.
How would you have judged the teachings of Jesus, Mo?se, Abraham, and so on... ?
How would you have judged the teachings of Zarathushtra, Bouddha, and so on... ?

I don't know because I live in a time where a book exists.

There were books at this time too.

Let's assume someone (say idolfree) come to us, claims he is a messenger, and expose a discourse to guide humanity better the the quran (which supersedes it). Will you follow him and deem the quran as outdated ?

It depends if he can supercede al-quraan or not.

On which criteria should we judge it supersedes the quran ?
Are you sure the quran can be superseded, while it is the best story ?

What is concretely "the book" ?

The book is God's writ for the human being. It contains the laws by which the human being can evolve and transcend decline and death.

Peace

mquran

Good discussion JM, good discussion.

I think it can be assesed with the 3 following verses

And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.

With clarity and the Psalms. And We sent down to you the Reminder to make clear to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think.

And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.

What is your assesment from the above ayaat?

I don't.

It is true the word inzaal is used for the quran, but it is used for many other things.

And among His Signs in this thou seest the earth barren and desolate; but when We send down anzalna rain to it, it is stirred to life and yields increase. Truly, He Who gives life to the (dead) earth can surely give life to (men) who are dead. For He has power over all things.

After (the excitement) of the distress, He sent down anzala calm on a band of you overcome with slumber

Yet, the real question still remains what is exactly wahi ?

JM, 'awhaa' is used for al-quraan. Please see 42/7 which you quoted above.

Wahi is best defined in 6/112-113 which shows how shaitaan distracts one with stories.

It seems to me that you are playing with words.

We have inspired (awhayna) you as We have inspired (awhayna) Noah and the prophets after him. And We inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and Jesus, and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and We have given David the Psalms.

Muhammad was inspired with the same thing as Noah, Abraham, etc...
What did God inspire to him ?

And thus We have inspired awhayna to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.

So, if, after Muhammad, there are other messengers, why would they not be inspired their own reading (maybe in their own language) ?

In 42/7, the word 'muhammad' doesn't occur. All nabiyeen recieved al-kitaab (2/213) one quality of which is 'mufassal (6/114). Therefore, if a new book appeared, it would have detail the same teachings as al-quraan.

Let's assume that.
Are you writing with God's inspiration ?
What have been the books written with God's inspiration since the quran ?

I havent encounted any book which has the quality of inspiration as defined by the al-quraan.

Al-quraan tells many things about how it supersedes the previous revelations.
Before the quran, there was the torah and the injeel. So, there were books.

Can you prove that at-tauraat and al-injeel were previous books? Al-quraan says all nabiyeen recieved AL-KITAAB (2/213).

The jews living at the time of Muhammad have refused to abandon the torah and accept the quran.
Do you never fear to be like them, when you refuse to follow the teachings of Bahaullah for example

I dont know any of this. I only know what al-quraan tells me.

So, it is your subjective faith.
It is not 100% based on reason.

And your 'jews at the time of muhammad' is based on reason? If so, what reason please?

There were books at this time too.

I dont know of any books. Show them to me please.

On which criteria should we judge it supersedes the quran ?
Are you sure the quran can be superseded, while it is the best story ?

Al-quraan says its 'ahsana alhadith' or the MORE beautiful hadith. How do you know something is better? By continous comparison. Bring a sura and compare.

KGB

MQuran

Can you please provide proof that Qur'an is not Allah revelation to Prophet Muhammad (SAW)?

KGB

33 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

Nazzala AAalayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi waanzala alttawrata waalinjeela

544 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

Inna anzalna alttawrata feeha hudan wanoorun yahkumu biha alnnabiyyoona allatheena aslamoo lillatheena hadoo waalrrabbaniyyoona waalahbaru bima istuhfithoo min kitabi Allahi wakanoo AAalayhi shuhadaa fala takhshawoo alnnasa waikhshawni wala tashtaroo biayatee thamanan qaleelan waman lam yahkum bima anzala Allahu faolaika humu alkafiroona

Thee here refers to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). We know that law of of Prophet Musa (SAW) and Prophet Isa (SAW) were sent down to jews.

KGB

Here is another verse for the people who believe that Qur'an is centuries old scripture and was given to all the Prophets is wrong concept according to Qur'an.

365 Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?

I am sick of all these insults directed at Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

mquran

KGBThee here refers to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). We know that law of of Prophet Musa (SAW) and Prophet Isa (SAW) were sent down to jews.

KGB, humble apologies but 'thee here refers to ..' isn't good enough for me and neither that 'we know that...'. I need Quranic evidence. Whatever the case, I respect your differences with me, the important thing is that we maintain civility in our discussion.

I am sick of all these insults directed at Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

What insults ? Am I guilty of any insult? Please show me and I'm ready to correct myself. THanks.

mquran

KGBCan you please provide proof that Qur'an is not Allah revelation to Prophet Muhammad (SAW)?

No I can't because I'm not asserting that it isn't. Here's how I view al-quraan

I am born into the world
I encounter certain things.
One of those things is a book with ayaat (ayat - that which refers to something beyond itself)
These ayaat convince me that this book is from Allah.

This book would have been revealed before me, long before me for the first time. But I don't know the name of the receipient. History calls him 'Muhammad ibn Abdullah'. Ok, I don't mind using that but I wont stick by it. Its history to me.

KGB

MQuran its not history which is calling him Prophet Muhmmad (SAW). Its the clear verses of Qur'an the words which are the clear proof of Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

You are trying to take certain words from these ayat and try to run away with it with your and Kyle's (Idolfree) understanding which is very dangerous because you two will be misguiding God knows how many who are visiting this forum.

Can you veryify each and every word of Qur'an? Certainly not. You have to believe in the words of Allah as they are in clear verses.

PS If anybody get offended by writing SAW with Prophet Muhammed name than I am willing to change it to Peace be upon him if English words you find more acceptable.