Pilgrimage - Jerusalem

ayman

Peace Stefan Rosty,

thats a big problem ...
and are we looking for the real place now ?

The real place is clearly given in 2226

And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place as do not partner with me anything, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.

This is why the god didn't give us an exact map. Any place where partners are not setup with the god is the real place. So the town presently called Mecca is certainly not the real place. Please see

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm

Peace,

Ayman

FJ

Peace Jankren,

The following from

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/hajjdome.html

The Shiite historian al-Yaqubi writing in his Tarikh made an interesting allegation that the Umayyad caliph Abd al-Malik built Dome of the Rock to divert the Hajj from Makkah to Jerusalem to outdo his rival Abdullah b. al-Zubayr. He said

Abd al-Malik prevented the people of Sham from the hajj and this is because Ibn al-Zubayr was taking the pledge of allegience from the pilgrims. When Abd al-Malik had found out about this, he prevented them from setting out to Makkah. But the people protested and said "Do you prevent us from doing the pilgrimage to the Sacred House of Allah while it is a duty from Allah upon us ?" He said "Here is Ibn Shihabuddin al-Zuhri narrating to you that the Messenger of Allah said "The caravans should not be set out except for three mosques, the Sacred Mosque, my present Mosque and the Mosque of Jerusalem" stands for the Sacred Mosque for you. And here is the Rock on it is narrated that the Prophet set his foot before ascending to the heavens, it stands for the Kabah. Then he built a Dome on the Rock, suspended silk curtains on it and appointed servants for it. And told the people to revolve around it like they revolve around the Kabah and so it was during the rule of Bani Umayyah.

In the passage of his Muhammedanische Studien, Goldziher puts forward in detail the theory that Umayyad caliph Abd al-Malik, by erecting the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, intended to outsmart his rival Abdallah b. al-Zubayr, who exploited the holiness of Makkah, his capital, for his own political ends. Using al-Ya`qubi's material Goldziher wrote

When the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik wished the stop the pilgrimages to Mecca because he was worried lest his rival Abd Allah b. Zubayr should force the Syrians journeying to the holy places in Hijaz to pay him homage, he had to recourse to the expedient of the doctrine of the vicarious hajj to the Qubbat al-Sakhra in Jerusalem. He decreed that the obligatory circumambulation (tawaf) could take place at the sacred place in Jerusalem with the same validity as that around the Ka`ba ordained in Islamic Law. The pious theologian al-Zuhri was given the task of justifying this politically motivated reform of religious life by making up and spreading a saying traced back to the Prophet, according to which there are three mosques to which people may make pilgrimages those in Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem.

Goldziher's theory had been adopted, uncritically or with some criticism, by many early orientalists and a few recent ones; some of them are Creswell, Rippin, van Ess, and Elad. Their evidence is largely based on texts of a Shiite historian al-Yaqubi (c. 874 CE) and of an orthodox priest from Alexandria, Eutychius (d. 940 CE). In order to justify their theory they propose that the plan of the rock with the two ambulatories around the rock itself, originated with the liturgical requirements of the tawaf.

The Christian missionaries, as usual, get very excited when they get something with which they can create doubts in the minds of Muslims. One such example is the writing of Joseph Smith where he says

Certainly Muslim tradition suggests the Dome of the Rock may have been the early religious centre for Islam. The caliph Suleyman, who reigned up to 717 AD, went to Mecca to ask about the Hajj. He was not satisfied with the reply, and chose instead to follow 'Abd al-Malik, travelling to the Dome of the Rock.

We are not supplied with references that state the "Muslim tradition" that says that "the Dome of the Rock may have been the early religious centre of Islam" and that the caliph "chose instead to follow `Abd al-Malik, travelling to the Dome of the Rock." As usual, it is left for the Muslims, to supply the uninformed missionary with the missing information.

References

Ahmad b. Abu Yaqub Ibn Wadih al-Yaqubi (Ed. M. T. Houtsma), Tarikh, 1883, Volume II, Leiden, p. 311.

I. Goldziher (Ed. S. M. Stern), Muslim Studies (Muhammedanische Studien), 1971, Volume II, Atherton New York and Aldine Chicago, pp. 44-45.

K. A. C. Creswell, A Short Account Of Early Muslim Architecture, 1968, Librairie Du Liban, Beirut, pp. 17-18.

A. Rippin, Muslims Their Religious Beliefs And Practices, 1990, Volume I (The Formative Period), Routledge London & New York, pp. 53-54.

J. van Ess, "Abd al-Malik And The Dome Of The Rock An Analysis Of Some Texts", in J. Raby & J. Johns (Ed.), Bayt Al-Maqdis Abd al-Malik's Jerusalem, 1992, Part 1, Oxford University Press Oxford (UK), pp. 89-104.

A. Elad, Medieval Jerusalem And Islamic Worship, 1995, E. J. Brill, Leiden, pp. 158-163.

A. Elad, "Why Did Abd al-Malik Build The Dome Of The Rock? A Re-Examination of Muslim Sources", in J. Raby & J. Johns (Ed.), Bayt Al-Maqdis Abd al-Malik's Jerusalem, 1992, Part 1, Oxford University Press Oxford (UK), pp. 33-58.

Joseph Smith's article http//debate.org.uk/topics/isamasih/apr99/archeo.htm

The allegations against the Qur'aan in Joseph Smith's article and some other misconceptions were refuted by Ayman in the following posts in an internet discussion

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/41a51328bdca3c80?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/730fe6e654dd9242?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/51a91e7c64b57fb6?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/221ffb07a5dcb04b?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/ebe1e5f7b9e67f0e?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/170416c761b02771?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/45468e83c8d780b4?

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/4a3c6d6a13f7df1c?

The complete discussion in which Ayman participated can be found at

http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_thread/thread/783540f26de114a0/2a42085a49ad9a9a?lnk=raot#2a42085a49ad9a9a

Please also see the following discussion on this forum

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.0

Selam to all,

Brother Tanveer I wonder how do u keep track of all these links.... anytime someone asks a question I see you are always there to provide the links where these questions have been debated b4. How do u do that?

Thanks
FJ

palestina

well its gonna take me a while to read all these links! lol best get crackin!

unknownuser

Salaam bro FJ,

Brother Tanveer I wonder how do u keep track of all these links.... anytime someone asks a question I see you are always there to provide the links where these questions have been debated b4. How do u do that?

Thanks
FJ

Its actually deceptively simple !

I have been around in the forum for a while now and have read many of the previous threads and participated in many discussions. Whenever I see any article, thread, link, website etc. of interest, I immediately save it in my "favorites" in the internet browser in an "islam" folder. I also upload these favorites on "yahoo bookmarks", so I can access them from any PC. I have also sub-divided the islam folder in my favorites into articles, websites, discussions, qur'aan study tools etc. for ease of reference.

I also use the search feature in the forum; it's a very powerful feature ! Click the search button at the top (between "help" and "forum&quot which gives more options, instead of using the default search window at the top right.

Hope that helps,

Tanveer

Alen

Peace all,
Here is where I now stand in brief

Pilgrimage was always to Jerusalem "Bekka"
The location of "Temple Mount" is the "Kaba" (Square)
This stone is the one on which Abraham was "tested" with a sacrifice (Maqam=Situation/Station/Place)
Qibla is "political orientaion" and has nothing to do with Pilgrimage.
The Prophet changing his "Qibla" was when he emigrated to Medina and made it into a new political capital.
The Masjid Al-Haram is the "political" building and is NOT related to Pilgrimage.
The Masjid Al-Haram was located in Jerusalem (where is not clear) and was the place for government in the final days of the Prophet.
I believe the Pilgrimage has never "changed" and cannot be changed.
The confusion of Mecca and the Qibla is bad luggage we picked-up from the Sunnis & Shia who are always out to confuse.
Layth

Salam.

If i may ask, which way do you turn, when you pray or should i say, which way should we turn when we pray?
I'm asking because a sunni has already asked me this and i wanna give him a good and true answer that will kick his socks off.

I also wanna be more informed.

Peace.

jankren

Someone told me that why Al Quran mentions figs and olives, plants that dont grown in the Arabian Peninsula today is because climate changes all the time. So Muhammad probably did live in the area.

unknownuser

Peace Jankren,

Same kind of people will also tell you that the restricted sanctuary was near an uncultivated valley and then go on to say that Mecca was that uncultivated valley. Go figure.

unknownuser

Someone told me that why Al Quran mentions figs and olives, plants that dont grown in the Arabian Peninsula today is because climate changes all the time. So Muhammad probably did live in the area.

There is no connection between those verses.

I wonder what "some people" would base their argument if God swore instead by alcohol and strippers?

Elke

Someone told me that why Al Quran mentions figs and olives, plants that dont grown in the Arabian Peninsula today is because climate changes all the time. So Muhammad probably did live in the area.

yes blame it on the US ! ;D

lk

jankren

Peace Jankren,

Same kind of people will also tell you that the restricted sanctuary was near an uncultivated valley and then go on to say that Mecca was that uncultivated valley. Go figure.

Hmm, actually I dont get it. If the restricted sanctuary is not in Mecca then where according to you Tanveer?

unknownuser

Peace Jankren,

Firstly, I have already posted the answer to this in an earlier post on this thread. Please be courteous and read the entire thread before asking me something which has already been answered in the same thread by me earlier

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7615.msg122881#msg122881

Please read all the posts onwards from the above referenced post to find another post by me earlier which gives different links to an internet debate about this topic, for further details.

Secondly, who cares where it is according to me ? We should care where it is according to The God

2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the sanctuary Do not set up as partners anything with Me, and purify My sanctuary for the passers by and the remaining, and the humbly submitting.

This is being discussed presently in the following thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14268.msg132968#msg132968

Please prove that olives were being grown in the area now known as Mecca at the time of revelation of the Qur'aan. Then also show how prophet Muhammad used to pass by the ruins of the town of Lot morning and evening (37137-13 while living 1200 km away from them.

I would encourage you to post in the above thread if you wish to continue this discussion, and read all the relevant posts and threads before asking something, because it might already have been answered.

Jafar

Salam.

If i may ask, which way do you turn, when you pray or should i say, which way should we turn when we pray?
I'm asking because a sunni has already asked me this and i wanna give him a good and true answer that will kick his socks off.

I also wanna be more informed.

Peace.

Then ask them back

Which direction should we turn to pray when we're an astronout in the moon?

Salam

unknownuser

Then ask them back

Which direction should we turn to pray when we're an astronout in the moon?

Salam

The standard answer is "whichever direction your pointing equipment gives".

What I want to know, is what direction we should pray supposing we are on the moon, and you happen to be exactly over Kaaba.

Last I checked, praying upwards was relatively hard, even without gravity.

Jafar

The standard answer is "whichever direction your pointing equipment gives".

What I want to know, is what direction we should pray supposing we are on the moon, and you happen to be exactly over Kaaba.

Last I checked, praying upwards was relatively hard, even without gravity.

Or the Kaaba is just directly below you...
Then you should performing the Sujud by standing on one head upside down.. rotfl

Salam

Samia

The standard answer is "whichever direction your pointing equipment gives".

What I want to know, is what direction we should pray supposing we are on the moon, and you happen to be exactly over Kaaba.

Last I checked, praying upwards was relatively hard, even without gravity.

You don't need to be on the moon to be in this situation. Remember the earth is spherical, not flat. Somewhere on the globe will have Mecca directly under it.

unknownuser

The standard answer is "whichever direction your pointing equipment gives".

What I want to know, is what direction we should pray supposing we are on the moon, and you happen to be exactly over Kaaba.

Last I checked, praying upwards was relatively hard, even without gravity.

Right, Jews and Zionist loving Christians will always try to face Jerusalem?

http//observantastronomer.blogspot.com/2005/11/incredible-jerusalem-compass.html

For those ?supposing? hypothetical situations we can suppose hypothetical answers such as either face straight up or invest in purchasing a gravity prayer rug with built in kosher compass mentioned above which will lift/rotate you off the ground to exactly the right angle and direction while providing neck/back supports making it really easy. ;D

You don't need to be on the moon to be in this situation. Remember the earth is spherical, not flat. Somewhere on the globe will have Mecca directly under it.

Technically while bowing one?s head or facing straight down.

Questions

Kaaba direction is clearly known and within site; which way to turn to pray?
You are in an underground room with directions unknown; which way to pray?

In either case it?s the best effort to face Kaaba (even if in thought as in #2) or avoid it.

Peace

Jafar

Right, Jews and Zionist loving Christians will always try to face Jerusalem?

http//observantastronomer.blogspot.com/2005/11/incredible-jerusalem-compass.html

So? How is it any difference with Jews / Shia hating and Black stone loving Sunni who always try to face Kaaba?

Samia

Technically while bowing one?s head or facing straight down.

Interesting! This is the only position -metaphorically or literally - not mentioned in the qur'aan!

unknownuser

So? How is it any difference with Jews / Shia hating and Black stone loving Sunni who always try to face Kaaba?

The point is that it was common practice thus shedding light on verses 2142-150.

Btw, I care not for the black stone or any rock and face that direction because God said so ? Yes, God is everywhere and to God belong east and west, although God did not say to face God rather to face a particular direction which is not idolizing the structure/rocks for it matters not what?s there even if a grain of sand.

Interesting! This is the only position -metaphorically or literally - not mentioned in the qur'aan!

Interesting! Yes in Qur?an mentioned numerous times both literally and metaphorically.

Waaqeemoo alssalata waatoo alzzakata wairkaAAoo maAAa alrrakiAAeena
243 And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and BOW down your heads with those who BOW down (in worship).

Peace

gazzali

Peace,

What made me shift was the realization that Pilgrimage was for all "mankind" and not restricted or limited or hidden as Petra was. The other reasons for the shift are highlighted in the new article.

Layth

Peace Layth

Can you show me the sites for the old article and the new article?

gazzali