Pilgrimage - Jerusalem
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Salaam Nun de plume
Yarka3 does not mean bow. Bow, as in bend ones' body forward, is "yan7ani". Yarka3 is to kneel.
I thought the Bayt was mentioned here in Surat 106
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For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish,
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Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer,-
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Let them adore the Lord of this House,
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Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger).
Is this not the Bayt al Haram?
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I thought the Bayt was mentioned here in Surat 106
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For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish,
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Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer,-
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Let them adore the Lord of this House,
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Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger).
Is this not the Bayt al Haram?
Salaam Bigmo
What does this have to do with my post?
As for your post, the argument is about what's al Bayt al Haram?
Salaam Nun
Waaqeemoo alssalata waatoo alzzakata wairkaAAoo maAAa alrrakiAAeena
243 And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and BOW down your heads with those who BOW down (in worship).Why do you add (your heads) which does not exist in the Arabic version?
How would we be commanded to "bow" with those who "bow", irrespective of for whom they are bowing?
And as I mentioned in my previous post, "bow" is the wrong translation for raka3a. You know that, hence you added (your heads). -
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I thought the Bayt was mentioned here in Surat 106
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For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish,
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Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer,-
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Let them adore the Lord of this House,
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Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger).
Is this not the Bayt al Haram?
I think I meant that the Bayt al Haram is where Quraish lived.
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I think I meant that the Bayt al Haram is where Quraish lived.
Very useful...
Abraham said "I submit to rabb-ul-alameen" so he lived in one of the worlds...
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Peace,
BTW the moon thing is not that far fetched... the Americans are planning to build a permanent base camp on the moon in 2024...Good luck with all that! Maybe that's what 541 was referring to.
http//www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/05/news/moon.php
http//www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16042651/
Also if you are directly over Kaaba whichever direction you pray will be facing kaaba...visualize it. And I am against the 'facing kaaba theory'
http//www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/05/news/moon.php
http//www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16042651/
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Peace
This 'reply' is more of a general comment, although I felt that perhaps this sentence had some relevence.
I am currently reading 'A History of Israel and the Holy Land' by Michael Avi Y.... and friends (with a forward from Shimon Peres!). Anyway in this book it states that in the last half of the 7th century (I cannot remember the exact dates) that Muslims were making pilgrimage to Jerusalem and doing the same rituals that they do in Makkah. Bearing in mind the current discussions, I thought this was a interesting point.
Roshan
tell me more!
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Masjid ul Haram is the Kaaba in Mecca. Masjid ul Aqsa and the Dome and surroounding area are the "Old House" "bait ul Ateeq". Abraham constructed both the "Bait ul Ateeq" (in jerusalem and called dome of the rock and Aqsa and wailing wall today) and the "Bait ul Haram" called Masjid ul haram and Kaaba.
The Pilgrimage "Hajj" is to the "old House" and the Visiting "Umra" is to the Bait ul Haram or Kaaba or Masjid ul Haram. The truth that so many cannot understand and clearly explained in the BOOK and Wisdom i.e. Torah, Bible and Quran. these three books can NEVER contradict each other in their original forms. Wait for the Messiah Jesus to return and till that happens hold fast to the Quran and NEVER reject any BOOK that came before it ... just know that they have been tampered with and the Quran CANNOT be tampered with by the WILL of GOD and study them to find the similarities and be sure of your faith.
Peace to you all .... most of what you say is true ... but there is much much more to the Quran than just these "visible" facts.
Peace be on you all.
I am one of those that know and as you I have turned away from ALL organized religions today. Every Man and Woman will stand on his/her own beliefs and actions on the DAY we ALL stand before our Creator.
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Peace Sirohey,
First, welcome to the forum and thank you for your comments.
Masjid ul Haram is the Kaaba in Mecca.
The "kaaba" is described as "al-bayt al-haram" not "al-masjid al-haram".
Masjid ul Aqsa and the Dome and surroounding area are the "Old House" "bait ul Ateeq". Abraham constructed both the "Bait ul Ateeq" (in jerusalem and called dome of the rock and Aqsa and wailing wall today) and the "Bait ul Haram" called Masjid ul haram and Kaaba.
Al-Masjud Al-Aqsa was first built by Umar I after the conquest of Jerusalem and then it was expanded during the time of the Umayyads. Prior to this, the Romans used the place as a garbage dump. Similarly, the Dome of the Rock was built by the Umayyads.
As for the stone cube that you currently see in Mecca and that people call Kaaba, it was built by the Saudis in 1996.
The Pilgrimage "Hajj" is to the "old House" and the Visiting "Umra" is to the Bait ul Haram or Kaaba or Masjid ul Haram. The truth that so many cannot understand and clearly explained in the BOOK and Wisdom i.e. Torah, Bible and Quran. these three books can NEVER contradict each other in their original forms. Wait for the Messiah Jesus to return and till that happens hold fast to the Quran and NEVER reject any BOOK that came before it ... just know that they have been tampered with and the Quran CANNOT be tampered with by the WILL of GOD and study them to find the similarities and be sure of your faith.
How come none of the people of the book ever did or even heard of this "visit" to a stone cube? In fact, the only people who did such thing were the pagans who visited stone cubes (also called Jinn blocks) that represented their idols such as Allat.
Also, there is nothing in the great reading (quran) which indicates that Jesus will return before the day of the account.
Peace to you all .... most of what you say is true ... but there is much much more to the Quran than just these "visible" facts.
Peace be on you all.Yes, it is all about peace. So what does making a pilgrimage to a rock or visiting a stone cube and spinning around it seven times have to do with peace and serving the god?
I am one of those that know and as you I have turned away from ALL organized religions today. Every Man and Woman will stand on his/her own beliefs and actions on the DAY we ALL stand before our Creator.
Exactly. These are excellent words of wisdom. Indeed we should all turn away from religious rocks, stones, shrines and cubes because the only real purpose of such things is to serve "organized religions". They do nothing to serve the god and promote peace. We wherever we are we should turn towards "al-masjid al-haram", the inviolable insitution of obedience, which is none other than the truth from our Lord that we should implement and institutionalize. This is the straight path, not a highway to Jerusalem or Mecca.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace all,
Here is where I now stand in brief
- Pilgrimage was always to Jerusalem "Bekka"
- The location of "Temple Mount" is the "Kaba" (Square)
- This stone is the one on which Abraham was "tested" with a sacrifice (Maqam=Situation/Station/Place)
- Qibla is "political orientaion" and has nothing to do with Pilgrimage.
- The Prophet changing his "Qibla" was when he emigrated to Medina and made it into a new political capital.
- The Masjid Al-Haram is the "political" building and is NOT related to Pilgrimage.
- The Masjid Al-Haram was located in Jerusalem (where is not clear) and was the place for government in the final days of the Prophet.
I believe the Pilgrimage has never "changed" and cannot be changed.
The confusion of Mecca and the Qibla is bad luggage we picked-up from the Sunnis & Shia who are always out to confuse.
Layth
Peace Dear Layth.
This topic reminded me the old forum which has not been moderated for 7 years . Lot of after year 2001 which was abandoned Those have extra time may like to know what was discussed an who where there. ?
Some time reading our past help us for present.
http//groups.yahoo.com/group/beccanotmecca/
Peace. -
Peace Ayman
Exactly. These are excellent words of wisdom. Indeed we should all turn away from religious rocks, stones, shrines and cubes because the only real purpose of such things is to serve "organized religions". They do nothing to serve the god and promote peace.
I agree with those words totally but
We wherever we are we should turn towards "al-masjid al-haram",
Is this one not made from stones?
And which direction I shoud pray if I reside in city with 180 degrees in same position in other side of this glob ?
Peace,
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Peace Ayman
I agree with those words totally but
"We wherever we are we should turn towards "al-masjid al-haram",
Is this one not made from stones?
And which direction I shoud pray if I reside in city with 180 degrees in same position in other side of this glob ?
Peace,
Salaam Bahman
You did not complete Ayman's sentence
Peace Sirohey,
We wherever we are we should turn towards "al-masjid al-haram", the inviolable insitution of obedience, which is none other than the truth from our Lord that we should implement and institutionalize. This is the straight path, not a highway to Jerusalem or Mecca.
Peace,
Ayman
The underlined phrase is the "masjid al-haram". It is not "made", whether of stone or anything else.
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Peace Stefan Rosty,
The real place is clearly given in 2226
- And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place as do not partner with me anything, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.
This is why the god didn't give us an exact map. Any place where partners are not setup with the god is the real place. So the town presently called Mecca is certainly not the real place. Please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
Peace,
Ayman
Can you tell me how any parteners have been set up besides Allah in the Dome of the Rock?
Peace,
Asfandyar
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Peace Asfandyar,
Can you tell me how any parteners have been set up besides Allah in the Dome of the Rock?
Peace,
Asfandyar
This has already been discussed by brother Ayman on this forum. For example please see the following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112175#msg112175
Hope that helps.
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Peace Soof, all,
Where is the Ancient House if not the Arab-built Kaa'ba? Is God asking us to "circumambulate" (probably not the word meant in English) a house in Jerusalem or is this metaphorical?
This issue has been discussed many times in this forum. For example please see the following posts and also read all the links referenced in those posts
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14800.msg137542#msg137542
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7615.msg122881#msg122881
After reading the above, I hope it is clear why it does not matter where exactly the Ancient House was in the time of Abraham, and that The God is NOT asking us to "circumambulate" anything !
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Take heed; beware of living your life on religious "food."
By now you have certainly forgotten the five loaves that fed the five thousand, with twelve baskets left over, and the seven loaves that fed the four thousand and the plenty that remained. But I am not speaking to you about earthly food. No, I have come to warn you against feeding on the ideas and false teachings of those who market in religion.
In vain such people worship me, teaching as doctrines what are merely the inventions of men. Preoccupied with their own superstitions, they have forgotten the commandments of God.
Beware of false teachers who stand before you wearing sheep's clothing. Beneath their guise hides a ravenous wolf. They follow their true master, the evil one, and do what as he commands them. He was a murderer from the beginning, and never told the truth, because there was never truth in him. When he lies, he speaks in character, for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
To those who set themselves up to be your judges I say, judgment upon you, false teachers. Hypocrites! You, who will never enter the kingdom of heaven, bar the very way to those who long to go in. You travel across land and sea to gain one proselyte; and when that person is won, you make them two times more the child of hell than you are yourselves. Do you not merit great damnation?
You steal from the poor and the widows; and then, to conceal your true intentions, you make long pious prayers.
You decree "The temple is unimportant. What is important is the treasury of the temple!"
But which is greater the gold in the treasury, or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
And you say "The altar is not important; but the gift that is upon it is important."
You are both foolish and blind. Which is greater the gift on the altar, or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
Whoever honours the altar honours it and all things upon it. And whoever honours the temple honours him who dwells within its walls. And they who honour heaven, honour the throne of God, and he who sits upon it.
You make ceremonial offerings of even the herbs that grow at your front door. All the while, you have forgotten the weighty matters of the law judgment, mercy, and faith.
Your vision extends not one inch in front of your face. Piously you strain a gnat from your wine, and proceed to swallow a camel. Self-righteously you clean the outside of your cup, while inside remains the grime of extortion. How blind can you be! First take care of what is concealed within. Only then will the outside be clean.
False teachers! In your hypocrisy you are no better than whitewashed tombs, which might appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of death and decaying bones. You may impress people by your superficial demonstrations of virtue, but inside you are consumed with hypocrisy and have fallen short of the truth. How can you believe, who live only for your colleague's praise, never seeking the honor that comes from God alone?
You build monuments to the prophets, and place flowers at the tombs of the righteous, and say "If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would never have allowed their innocent blood to be shed."
Be witness to your own inconsistency! You are the descendents of those who killed the prophets, and have surpassed even their wicked acts. Snakes! Generation of vipers! How will you escape the condemnation of eternal judgment?
Behold, in the days to come, I will send you prophets, and wise men, and teachers. Even these you will kill and crucify. Yes, even these you will persecute, and pursue to the ends of the earth.
Such hypocrisy! Isaiah was right when he prophesied of you "They approach me with their mouths, and honour me with their lips; but their hearts are far from me."
You justify yourselves before your congregations; but God knows the evil intentions of your hearts for that which is highly esteemed by man is repulsive in the sight of God.
Take heed Many will come from the east and west, and enter joyfully the kingdom of heaven. But many who should have come in will be banished instead to the darkness outside. Be forewarned Unless your righteousness exceeds the pseudo-righteousness of the religious, you will not set foot inside the kingdom of heaven.
And
Once a man appeared at his friend?s door after midnight. "Lend me three loaves of bread,? he called. ?I have visitors who have travelled far to see me, and my cupboards are bare."
But his friend replied "Please don't disturb me now. The door is locked, and my children are asleep. I can't get up and help you."
Here is a lesson. Though the man did not get up and provide the bread because of their friendship, he did eventually give in to his friend?s earnest pleading, and rose from his sleep to give him what he asked.
Be so persistent in your requests to God. Ask, and it will be given to you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, those who seek find, and to those who knock, the door will be opened wide.
In a certain town, there lived a hard-hearted judge, who neither feared God nor cared for his neighbour. In the same town there lived a widow, who pursued him for justice concerning a person who had harmed her. Time passed, and the judge persisted in ignoring her pleas, refusing to hear her case, until finally, one day, he said to himself
"Though I do not fear God, nor concern myself with charity, I will see to it that this widow gets justice; for she wears me out with her constant appeals."
Will not God, then, offer justice to his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he too ignore your earnest cry for help? I tell you this he will see that they who seek him receive justice, and quickly! And yet, the real question raised in this story is this When the Messiah returns, will he find many on the earth with such persevering faith?
I do not mean that you should let your prayer fall into a pattern of mindless repetition. The unenlightened pray in this manner, imagining that they will be heard because of the great number of their prayers. Do not imitate them. Remember your heavenly Father knows what you need even before you ask.
The prophet Isaiah has written "My house shall be called by all nations, a house of prayer."
Pray then, to the Father who hears your most intimate prayers and rewards them openly; and whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will provide. If you live your life in me, and let my words live in you, you may ask what you wish and it will be given to you.
Pray in this manner
?Our Father in heaven, may all the earth recognize that you are the one and holy God.
May your kingdom dwell among us. May your purpose be accomplished on earth, as it is in heaven. Provide us with daily bread to sustain us, and forgive our falling short. Help us to forgive those who have wronged us. Keep us from wandering into faithlessness, and deliver us from the evil one. For to you belongs all power and glory, eternally. Let it be so."http//www.thewords.com/english/thepower.htm