Is Quran anti- secular?
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Like i said, forget the past.
No. No one should forget the past. The past is what makes us what we are. We WERE cavemen once. We shouldnt forget that. WE were unbeliever once. WE should never forget that.
i believe because of that GOD took the true Quran away from the people for many years or had other methods of showing the true Quran to sincere believers of which we have no knowledge.
So you are saying that God allowed the addition of the two false verses? That would make God a hypocryte.
Remeber the Quran says not to argue about things of which we have no knoledge as well
The above has nothing to do with code 19.
We should appreciate TO WHAT WE HAVE NOW
What we have now is conjecture. Im refering to code 19. Let me say this loud and clear. I repsect that you belive in code 19. I have nothing against code 19. Then again, i dont have nothing against pigs too.
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Hi Mquran,
Here is my answer to ur posts
Do u believe wisdom/knowledge/goodness exsists out of Quran as well?
Or If not, do u beleive all that man knows today, all the discoveries, all the lessons learnt are from Man(MaN BEING SUPERIOR) himself and not from God?
Bang, I believe all the knowledege, all the wisdom, all the goodness on earth and beyond is from God. And Man attains knowlegde, wisdom only with Allah's will/ favour and guidance.1976 "And Allah doth advance in guidance those who seek guidance and the things that endure, Good Deeds, are best in the sight of thy Lord, as rewards, and best in respect of (their) eventual return."
see the difference? Now dont bother replying though.
And Mquran, It is futile arguing with u coz u dont wish to see that GOD'S signs exsist outside Quran too. To u, God's signs and wisdom are in Quran only.If someone talks of stuff not mentioned in Quran or even utters words not in Quran, u ask for quotes from Quran and call them kafirs.
U read the same QUran that we do. But our understanding of it, is different from urs. I said Allah wants us to be respectful of all, and u refute that. Are u saying God is unjust or God doesnt condider virtue and righteousness as essential criteria for humanbeings? I have repeatedly quoted the verses to u but u dont want to see it.
Mquran, I dont have to prove to u, in which discussions u used abuses and in which posts I used Quran quotes. U can see it urself if u do some homework. I dont have to prove anything to u nor do I have to seek ur approval about anything. U r just a human being like me.
Here is my request once again I dont want to discuss with u coz, u lack basic manners. So, this is my final post to u.
I apologise if I have been impolite anytime.
Thank u.Peace!
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No. No one should forget the past. The past is what makes us what we are. We WERE cavemen once. We shouldnt forget that. WE were unbeliever once. WE should never forget that.
Khi- Salam. Oh you believe in that cavemen junk? Well i dont and there are many many people out there who share my views. I believe mankind was created perfect like Adam who new all the names of animals and had probably a much greater intellect than us today. Remeber Quran says
Many a generation before them, who were more powerful, we annihilated. They searched the land; did they find an escape?
And 2ndly i was talking about not to conjecture of the past. All is conjecture. Like i said we dont know what signs GOD gave to them so thats why it is totally irrelevant. These are silly excuses just to ignore any new signs which GOD has or GW will provide us with in the future. Get it?So you are saying that God allowed the addition of the two false verses? That would make God a hypocryte.
Khi- To the Mushaf yes NOT the Quran. PLZ try to understand this. The corrupt Muslims, id say, didnt deserve the true Quran no more. GOD knew whats in their hearts while we do not and allows things to happen accordingly. The statement "allowed them enter in the Quran" is incorrect. The Quran is NOT mere ink and paper which you and most others here have still not understood.
The above has nothing to do with code 19.
Khi- Heh?
What we have now is conjecture. Im refering to code 19. Let me say this loud and clear. I repsect that you belive in code 19. I have nothing against code 19. Then again, i dont have nothing against pigs too.
Khi- lol What are you saying? Code-19 is crystal clear for those whove studied it like bros Bahman, Edip , myself and many others. Some people just cant see the miracle and GOD knows their hearts and thus the reasons as to why they dont. GOD Bless!
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As Salaam Alaikum Everyone,
I believe that the Quranic laws should prevail over everything, and everyone. But we should note that there are some laws that have only been made for the believers, and not for all people.
Other than that, other things can be debated.
I'm down with God! I don't like to run away from him, and act like religion doesn't exist. It does! I hate secularism.
salam
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19/09/2005 114417 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs
Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ?
In the 'secular democracy' religion, does PROGRAMS mean SCRIPTURES ? How well you twist words, LT )
29/69 of al-quraan approves of SUBUUL, multiple PATHS , but never any other scripture.
I challenge you to bring proof from al-quraan to the contrary.
Further, I challenge you to bring your 'objective instruments of analysis'. Your inability to do so only shows the empty nature of your lofty ideals. When you condescend towards those who believe in the absolute truth of al-quraan, you should remember that free-thinkers like you are also accountable for what they say.
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Salaam Khi,
Khi- It's true there are many different "camps" or rather people who understand some parts of Quran differently but that's not the main issue
.You alleged I'm not 'quran only'. Im only answering you by telling you I couldn't care less. No offense.
The main issue is that there are those who dont believe in code-19 yet claim to believe in Quran. I dont understand how that is possible.
I've shown you the ayat. If you don't see ayat fil afaq wa fil anfus, what can I do, man ?
It just doesnt seem logical to me because in this way anyone can just add up some verses in between what you now call as Quran and voila in a few years therell be a group having another "quran" with additional verses. Those who believe in code-19 i dont have much problems with them even if we have more or less differences in interpretation of ceratin verses for i believe those would be clarified gradually in the future GW as per the ayat in my signature.
Yes, anyone can write another 'quran' but would it be the one in eminence (az-zikr) ? Never. Az-zikr is the one known in the world and any changes would be immediately known.
Khi- I dont know why your putting an innocent woman down. Why dont you challenge bro Edip to a debate and then well see?
Innocent woman? Aisha Musa gave false information about al-quraan so she's not so innocent to me. Can do. I've emailed him to debate him on democracy. We can add on to 19 as well. Would you mind asking him.
Khi- In the above verses GOD is obviously talking about the people who have received enough signs and yet are rejecting and thus would continue to reject, logically which is not the case with code-19 believers for they surely believe dont they? This ofcourse varies from time to time from generation to generation and GOD knows this. Thats why the following verse
When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, We produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
The above verses you quoted are often brough up by code-19 rejectors and then i show them verses from the Quran that those who reject GOD's "ayaat(any signs from GOD)" are kaafir no matter whether theyd believed before and thats the issue here. It's not that we asked for code-19. GOD knew why and He is the one Who sent it to us and we would be arrogant to reject it, plain and simple. GOD Bless!Hmm, lets start from beginning, ok?
19 is the miracle of the Quran, you assert. Correct?
If 19 is the miracle, why wasn't 19 mentioned as the 'even if' verses ? Why is there only mentioned the literal descent of a book on paper and the ascent of the person into heaven?
God's saying, EVEN IF he does this, they won't believe.
Why didn't he say EVEN IF he showed the most intricate 19 aspect, they wont believe? If 19 is the miracle of the Quran?
That's what im saying.
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hypocrisy?
here is a transcript of a converstation with the forum member "mquran".
19/09/2005 113554 mq - its like humans have 2 dynamic poles
19/09/2005 113559 mq - the heaven and the earth
19/09/2005 113603 mq -heavenS, sorry
19/09/2005 113623 mq -part of us soar in this heavenly realm, which the poet captures
19/09/2005 113644 mq -but our earthly realm brings us back
19/09/2005 113700 mq -this is where my love of mystical poetry ends
19/09/2005 113705 Lote-Tree -poet captures both chap..
19/09/2005 113715 Lote-Tree -the hell as well as the heaven
19/09/2005 113734 mq -agreed.., but where we depart is that actual program
19/09/2005 113754 mq -i think heaven can be found in the earthly side of things
19/09/2005 113759 mq -if we follow the path
19/09/2005 113803 Lote-Tree -heaven is within us
19/09/2005 113809 Lote-Tree -hell is within us
19/09/2005 113833 Lote-Tree -we would not know the differnece without them
19/09/2005 113901 mq -potentially, yes
19/09/2005 113917 mq -but they must be given birth to
19/09/2005 113930 mq -thats the whole point
19/09/2005 114027 Lote-Tree - elaborate
19/09/2005 114052 mq - well, the concept of heaven is within us, its actualisability is also within our grasp
19/09/2005 114103 mq -but in order to bring it forth, that requires a prograk
19/09/2005 114107 mq -progam*
19/09/2005 114115 mq -all human beings seek that
19/09/2005 114138 mq -the quran calls this 'al-kitaab'...the writ
19/09/2005 114157 mq -as a programmer, what are u trying to do ? ur WRITING something which the system understands
19/09/2005 114206 mq -why ? in order to exploit the usage of the system
19/09/2005 114235 mq -if we discover LIFE'S program, we could do the same
19/09/2005 114352 Lote-Tree -your analogy fails in the respect that are millions of different programs available... and that is my point - Quran for you is your program - and thats great... but to others it is Bhagavad Gita, Buddhas Fire Sermon...etc...
19/09/2005 114417 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs
19/09/2005 114429 Lote-Tree -so why bother with quran?
19/09/2005 114513 mq -its the best programming language
19/09/2005 114524 mq -i have not seen concepts so illustrated
19/09/2005 114533 Lote-Tree -for you it is mquran... for you it is
19/09/2005 114538 mq -oh agreedSee the highlighted and now see what you have written now
Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ?
I have highlighted few more lines above so that it may help...
Hypocrisy?
I think so....Regards,
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19/09/2005 114352 Lote-Tree -your analogy fails in the respect that are millions of different programs available... and that is my point - Quran for you is your program - and thats great... but to others it is Bhagavad Gita, Buddhas Fire Sermon...etc...
19/09/2005 114417 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programsDear Secular Democrat who doesn't know what 'objective instruments of analysis' are, please read what YOU said 'MILLIONS' of different programs.
I responded to that o you who is unable to read...
MILLIONS of programs. can you see MILLIONS of scriptures?
Tsk tsk...scraping the bottom of the barrel now, are we?
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And Mquran, It is futile arguing with u coz u dont wish to see that GOD'S signs exsist outside Quran too. To u, God's signs and wisdom are in Quran only.
The fact that you think this shows how closely you've read my posts. You're right, its a futile exercise. Go on, keep misleading people with your 'respect the ones who are killing you' Quran.
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Salam mquran,
You alleged I'm not 'quran only'. Im only answering you by telling you I couldn't care less. No offense.
Khi- Ok.
I've shown you the ayat. If you don't see ayat fil afaq wa fil anfus, what can I do, man ?
Khi- But i do and i believe you cant for 19 is one of those ayat, one of the greatest indeed.
Yes, anyone can write another 'quran' but would it be the one in eminence (az-zikr) ? Never. Az-zikr is the one known in the world and any changes would be immediately known.
Khi- Now thats a good one. Your accepting one part of GOD's protection method and rejecting the other one logically required. Memorization can guard against loss but NOT against addition and the immediate exposure argument is silly similar to those of the sunnis. A group can be formed over years sneaking in verses. Once it becomes dominant in the world it can claim to the other "muslims" that they are the ones who posess the complete Quran and not the others. Also this argument of yours again involves mere "majority check" while the Quran itself says that the majority will mislead rfom the path of GOD which is here the issue.
Innocent woman? Aisha Musa gave false information about al-quraan so she's not so innocent to me. Can do. I've emailed him to debate him on democracy. We can add on to 19 as well. Would you mind asking him.
Khi- It depends on whether she did it deliberately or by mistake. And yes that would be great a debate between you and bro Edip on code-19. I can phone him today if you want but id prefer you call him yourself. His no is 001-520-481 1919.
Hmm, lets start from beginning, ok?
19 is the miracle of the Quran, you assert. Correct?
If 19 is the miracle, why wasn't 19 mentioned as the 'even if' verses ? Why is there only mentioned the literal descent of a book on paper and the ascent of the person into heaven?
God's saying, EVEN IF he does this, they won't believe.
Why didn't he say EVEN IF he showed the most intricate 19 aspect, they wont believe? If 19 is the miracle of the Quran?
That's what im saying.
Khi- The miracle of code-19 was meant for our generation and it was kept hidden before, therefore the sura name 74 "the secret". This is so obvious. GOD Bless!
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Khi- But i do and i believe you cant for 19 is one of those ayat, one of the greatest indeed
Ok.
Khi- Now thats a good one. Your accepting one part of GOD's protection method and rejecting the other one logically required. Memorization can guard against loss but NOT against addition and the immediate exposure argument is silly similar to those of the sunnis. A group can be formed over years sneaking in verses. Once it becomes dominant in the world it can claim to the other "muslims" that they are the ones who posess the complete Quran and not the others. Also this argument of yours again involves mere "majority check" while the Quran itself says that the majority will mislead rfom the path of GOD which is here the issue.
Congratulations on UNDERSTANDING my thesis. I admire this about you, Khi, you take the trouble to read even if you are on the 'opposing camp'. You're one of the guys who makes staying on FM worth it. Cheers.
What you have hypothesised could happen, but hasn't. Proof? Al-quraan is totally consistent (4/82).
Khi- It depends on whether she did it deliberately or by mistake. And yes that would be great a debate between you and bro Edip on code-19. I can phone him today if you want but id prefer you call him yourself. His no is 001-520-481 1919.
I've never called him and he doesn't know me. If you want, by all means please do so.
Khi- The miracle of code-19 was meant for our generation and it was kept hidden before, therefore the sura name 74 "the secret". This is so obvious. GOD Bless!
Sorry, i believe there's no change in the sunnatullah. I believe that those two examples were given due to the essence of man being constant. Man will have always have his earth and sky. Its an inescapable aspect of his being.
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Salam mquran,
Congratulations on UNDERSTANDING my thesis. I admire this about you, Khi, you take the trouble to read even if you are on the 'opposing camp'. You're one of the guys who makes staying on FM worth it. Cheers.
What you have hypothesised could happen, but hasn't. Proof? Al-quraan is totally consistent (4/82).
Khi- The fact that it didnt happen cannot be a proof for the consistency of the Quran since theres a very high possibility of this to happen. This is just when i make a law that you mquran cannot leave freeminds forum and then you stay in this forum for lets say 30 yrs. This wont prove my thesis nor the consistency of my statement. Its only when you try to leave the forum and then my secret agents force you to stay that my law is proven. Similar is the case with the Quran. Somebody has to try to make additions and those need to be forced out in order for the Quran'ss thesis to be proven, get it?And this is exactly what hppened in 1974.
I've never called him and he doesn't know me. If you want, by all means please do so.
Khi- Ok though he seems very busy these days ill try GW.
Sorry, i believe there's no change in the sunnatullah. I believe that those two examples were given due to the essence of man being constant. Man will have always have his earth and sky. Its an inescapable aspect of his being.
Khi- What is this now your saying? How come sending a miracle is a change in the sunnatullah??? This IS THE SUNNATULLAH according to 2106
When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
GOD Bless! -
I've shown you the ayat. If you don't see ayat fil afaq wa fil anfus, what can I do, man ?
Khi- But i do and i believe you cant for 19 is one of those ayat, one of the greatest indeed.
When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
salam.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65351#65351
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Innocent woman? Aisha Musa gave false information about al-quraan so she's not so innocent to me. Can do. I've emailed him to debate him on democracy. We can add on to 19 as well. Would you mind asking him.
Khi- It depends on whether she did it deliberately or by mistake. And yes that would be great a debate between you and bro Edip on code-19. I can phone him today if you want but id prefer you call him yourself. His no is 001-520-481 1919.
salam.
have mercy bros . give Edip some rest . how many times has he debated on code-19 , and now you want more ?debate on 'democracy' would be OK , but how many times will he debate on 19 ?
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Salaamun alaikum,
Khi The fact that it didnt happen cannot be a proof for the consistency of the Quran since theres a very high possibility of this to happen. This is just when i make a law that you mquran cannot leave freeminds forum and then you stay in this forum for lets say 30 yrs. This wont prove my thesis nor the consistency of my statement. Its only when you try to leave the forum and then my secret agents force you to stay that my law is proven. Similar is the case with the Quran. Somebody has to try to make additions and those need to be forced out in order for the Quran'ss thesis to be proven, get it?And this is exactly what hppened in 1974.
HUH? Since there's a high possibility of corruption, this cannot be proof ? What's that, dude? The 'high probability' is coming from you. All I know is
Allah if the Quran is from other than Allah, it'd have contradictions.
Fact Al-quraan has no contradictions.
Therefore al-quraan must be from Allah.
If someone inserted anything into al-quraan, only part of al-quraan would be from Allah and therefore, it would have contradictions.
Khi- What is this now your saying? How come sending a miracle is a change in the sunnatullah??? This IS THE SUNNATULLAH according to 2106
When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?I'm saying those 2 verses in the thread above are the ULTIMATE things Allah does to prove the truth, but EVEN SO, people wont believe. The ultimate thing isnt 19, but those 2 experiences above.
As for 2/106, the word there isnt mujiza or miracle, its ayaat or SIGN. Further, these ayat werent given to prophets. Read 2/105, 'an yunazzila alaiKUM' , i.e. in plural. This is not talking about some miraculous event but rather our experiences of God's signs.
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Dear mquran,
Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into ?muslims? and ?non-muslims??
Misleading question. The essential being of humankind is ummatan wahid, a single ummah however, since people seek things between themselves, its THEY who cause themselve to be divided (2/213). So you can either be in submission to God's system or not.
Then I take it you mean that God has not given us the quran in order to divide ourselves. That we ourselves are doing it despite the words of God?
Why is it then that we are calling each other ?muslims? and ?non-muslims?? I.e. dividing ourselves, and still claim to believe in the words of God which says NOT to do that?The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.
This is your opinion. Evidence please.
Well, if this is not the case then the opposite must be true, the quran is there, first and foremost, to punish us and not to guide us. I do not hold that as very likely.
If you are a person who tries to live according to the words of God then you may be a ?muslim?. If you don?t, you may not be. But, again, this is not for us to decide.
Whatever pledge you give is not worth anything, unless you follow it up with actions. To claim to be a ?muslim? doesn?t make you a ?muslim?. To claim to be a cook doesn?t make you a cook.
Nobody can enter an ?islamic domain? through a pledge, only through the way of life and our actions. Way of life and actions according to the words of God is the ?islamic domain?.You can not ?sign on? as a citizen of islam and due to this be required to abide by the laws of islam. It is the other way around. It is only through abiding by the laws of islam that you may become a ?member? of that community.
If the quran is not ?a guide to an optimal form of democracy (?rule? by the people)? then what is it?
When it is informing us of how to behave, live and function, is it not guiding us to the best way of life? Is it not giving us clues as to how to ?rule? ourselves within the framework of the system of God?It is not difficult to understand the text in the quran saying ?an eye for an eye?. If we follow this to the letter does it mean that if somebody makes another person blind, he/she must also be blinded?
Does this make sense? Is this the best solution for everybody? Or is the one who has been wronged, and the humanity at large, better off by finding another solution to the situation at hand?When we translate ?laa yuminoon? into meaning ?they do not believe?, we must try to find out what this ?believe?-thing is. It does not take too much research to find out that it means a kind of belief based on a certain degree of knowledge. I.e. they actually do not have knowledge enough to ?believe? with certainty.
The acquisition of knowledge is made inaccessible to them.Yes, the quran is obligatory on us, but if we take every word in the quran literally we have not understood the message from God. It says that we have to study all of it and find what is ?best?.
Now, ?best? for whom, for God, or for one particular individual, or for the human community?Regards
Ali Omar