Is Quran anti- secular?

mquran

I meant the Quran is NOT enough and appropriate for running countries.

So why did you mention hadith, sunnah and the like ? Do you think how sunnis handle it was CORRECT? If not, why was it worth mentioning?

That's 5/48 not 5/38. And yes, Allah is telling you to judge by His Book. Either you do or you'll be judging according to hawaa, vain desires.

Do you think that if the Quran was revealed in 20th century it would have the same laws for adulters for example, whipping?

We are in the space age buddy, wake up

Yes, that's your OPINION. Do you have textual evidence. 5/48 which you quoted completely overruled you there, 'buddy' )

Also, do you think if you live in the space age, you will lose your essential humanity? Why are human beings still exploiting one another?

Its cool though, if you think the Quran is outdated chuck it out. Be upfront about it. Don't try to be in 2 camps like a hypocrite.

The only person brave enough to admit his kufr to the Quran is Lote Tree. The rest of the democratic camp are nothing but cowards. They never refer to the book and claim that they are muslims. Im still waiting to see ONE verse telling us to refer to the rejectors to establish our deen. One verse....

jonny_k

Salam mquran,
Do you believe in code-19 miracle in the Quran and that RK WAS a mssenger of GOD? GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Hi Mquran,

Please vote in the poll here on the issue
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4495

Your initiative is proof of your bias. Look at your wording
'religious legislation in all countries according to the religion of majority'.

Is al-quraan promoting a RELIGION?

Devious, PM, real devious.

Al-quraan promotes ad-deen al-islaam , the servitude to Allah alone, through the obedience of his laws. You''re not a muslim unless you submit to His Laws. However, you would ask the approval of al-kuffar before you serve Allah?

Never will al-yahood or an-nasara be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say "The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God. (2/120)

Isnt Islam a religion? And if a muslim country follows muslim laws , wont it be religious legislation? whats devious in it?
The 2nd option clearly indicated that every country in the world follow laws based on the religion of majority. Be it hindus, muslims, christians, jews, sikhs, buddhists etc..
If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims) in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?

Al-quraan predicted your attitude before you even concieved it.

Now, whats this supposed to mean? Cant u plain discuss with people without being judgemental?
I can use the same Quran and judge u. But I wont. Coz u r a fellow human being like me, and I respect u for that fact,and I respect the difference in our views as well. Cant u do that?

unknownuser

Hi Nadia,

Peace.

U are right, Shamsul. I can sense it coming too. And its ''Quran alone'' and not God alone.

I agree. A friend told me something beautiful the other night.
"you dont read God, you feel God"
I still think the messege of the quraan, is wonderful, but the importent thing is our belive in God.

I agree, Nadia.
We can feel God's signs within and outside of us, everywhere.
Thats a good quote.

Peace!

unknownuser

Hi stillearning,

Dangerous indeed this democracy thing might catch on and what might that lead to Choice for the people, better living standards, freedom to practice their faith or lack of it etc. Very dangerous indeed.
Regards

Thats a good one P

jonny_k

If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims) in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?

Khi- Salam. This cannot be so for legal laws. One single country cant have two legal laws. For example the OT Bible says kill/stone the adulterer while Quran says to lash him while the secular says no punishemtn at all. Now we cant have the court of a country in which there are Jews, christians, muslims and seculars ask again and agaian "are you jew or muslim or secular or christian" and then punish or leave accordingly. That wont work. If the Christians or Muslims want that such happen the country would split into two and no longer remain one. The laws is what makes up the country primarily. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Hi Mquran,

The only person brave enough to admit his kufr to the Quran is Lote Tree. The rest of the democratic camp are nothing but cowards. They never refer to the book and claim that they are muslims.

Looks like I missed on Lotetree's confession that he is kufr. Can u enlighten us?

unknownuser

Hi Idmkhizar,

If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims) in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?

Khi- Salam. This cannot be so for legal laws. One single country cant have two legal laws. For example the OT Bible says kill/stone the adulterer while Quran says to lash him. Now we cant have the court of a country in which there are Jews, christians and muslims ask again and agaian "are you jew or muslim" and then punish accordingly. That wont work. If the Christians or Muslims want that such happen the country would split into two and no longer remain one. The laws is what makes up the country primarily. GOD Bless!

I agree that there cant be many different legislations in one country. What I mean was, if u r saying muslims countries should have Quranic legislation for all, then its only fair to say christian countries can have christian legislation for all in their country, jews have jewish legislation for all in thei country, hindus have hindu legislation for all in their countries etc

Let me give an example Say, u live in a country with hindu majority and they have hindu legislation, and if according to the legislation, the widows had to burnt alive along with their dead husbands(its a practice called sati that was practiced among hindus), would u be ok to follow it? Or would u prefer secular and just legislation not taking into consideration religious beliefs, and with personal freedom to practice one's religion?

jonny_k

I agree that there cant be many different legislations in one country. What I mean was, if u r saying muslims countries should have Quranic legislation for all, then its only fair to say christian countries can have christian legislation for all in their country, jews have jewish legislation for all in thei country, hindus have hindu legislation for all in their countries etc

Khi- Salam. Yep, obviously if thts what they want.

Let me give an example Say, u live in a country with hindu majority and they have hindu legislation, and if according to the legislation, the widows had to burnt alive along with their dead husbands(its a practice called sati that was practiced among hindus), would u be ok to follow it? Or would u prefer secular and just legislation not taking into consideration religious beliefs, and with personal freedom to practice one's religion?

Khi- Id prefer not to live there and 2ndly how do you define just. For a faction of hindus(not all agree to sati) sati is just and they have thir reasons, though weird they maybe, to justify it. If you think only secularity is just then your wrong. Countries which want secularism and the majority chooses it, fine but as a believer we must not strive for such. We must strive for quranistan. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Hi Idmkhizar,

Sati was one extreme example I chose, to explain. There are loads of other customs. Thankfully, the practice has come to extinction becoz of the awareness amongst people.
If one can live there, in a secular legislation, peacefully with all people and practice religion in one's personal space, is that wrong?

jonny_k

Hi Idmkhizar,

Sati was one extreme example I chose, to explain. There are loads of other customs. Thankfully, the practice has come to extinction becoz of the awareness amongst people.
If one can live there, in a secular legislation, peacefully with all people and practice religion in one's personal space, is that wrong?

Khi- Salam. For a believer i said he/she must strive for the Quranic laws to be put in action(thats one form of jihaad), not with violence but by words and educating people. If ur just content with secularity then u dont believe in Quran. Id say secularism is the intermediate stage btw corrupted relgious laws and the Quran. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Hi Idmkhizar,

Khi- Salam. For a believer i said he/she must strive for the Quranic laws to be put in action(thats one form of jihaad), not with violence but by words and educating people. If ur just content with secularity then u dont believe in Quran. Id say secularism is the intermediate stage btw corrupted relgious laws and the Quran. GOD Bless!

I would disagree with ur views but at the same time, I respect them.
And I dont see the need to tell people,''listen, this is true and will work and is best''. If it is so, It will just be plain evident and people can see it without being told to. Truth speaks for itself.
And we all believe in Quran. But I guess, Our interpretations and understandings differ. LIke u believe in Code 19 and RK, I dont, though I believe the Quran.
But its ok to have our differences as long as we respect each other.
Lets pray Allah guides all of us to the truth.

Peace to u!

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Khizar,

Do you believe in code-19 miracle in the Quran and that RK WAS a mssenger of GOD? GOD Bless!

No. I looked into it 7 years ago and rejected all of it by 1999.

jonny_k

I would disagree with ur views but at the same time, I respect them.
And I dont see the need to tell people,''listen, this is true and will work and is best''. If it is so, It will just be plain evident and people can see it without being told to. Truth speaks for itself.

Khi- Salam. You must consider the fact that many people are ignorant and or deliberately kept ignorant by the media so that they have to be warned and it is out duty as believers to do so. Why otherwise do you think GOD sent messengers?

And we all believe in Quran. But I guess, Our interpretations and understandings differ. LIke u believe in Code 19 and RK, I dont, though I believe the Quran.
But its ok to have our differences as long as we respect each other.
Lets pray Allah guides all of us to the truth.

Peace to u!

Khi- Ok then heres another difference btw me and you. So you dont believe in Quran Alone then according to me since you would probably believe 9128&129 belongs to Quran. My qs to you is "Did ypu thoroghly study the code-19 miracle before coming to such conclusion?" because if not you might risk missing to believe in something which may result in you being punished by GOD. So all i ask is go and verify it for yourself. Study each and every point. goto www.submissiontv.com and download RKs Great Debate and the others also. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Salaamun alaikum Khizar,

Do you believe in code-19 miracle in the Quran and that RK WAS a mssenger of GOD? GOD Bless!

No. I looked into it 7 years ago and rejected all of it by 1999.

Khi- Salam. So then you probably believe in 9128&129 as part of Quran which would make you a non Quran Aloner acording to me. 2ndly did you study each and every point carefully before conclusing such or just skimmed through it and then a person came up pointing out some "errors" to you and you said "thts it, its nonsese"? If the latter is the case i advise you to be more careful.Study each and every point with care. Thats all i can say. In a post "to ming lo..." i mentioned some important websites which i advise you should consider. Last but not least without code-19 the Quran cannot be proven thus your being bent on following Quranic laws is based simply on your heart's feeling rather than rationality. GOD Bless!

mquran

PM Isnt Islam a religion? And if a muslim country follows muslim laws , wont it be religious legislation? whats devious in it?

Islam is a DEEN. A deen is something which a slave follows for his rabb/ilah. We are told that to serve Allah, we must follow his laws (12/40) and we must be our deen EXCLUSIVELY to him (39/3). You're not a muslim by going into the mosque and hitting your forehead on the floor 17 times a day. You become a muslim by orientating your qiblah towards masjid al-haraam, which is the establishment of God's huruumat in the world.

The 2nd option clearly indicated that every country in the world follow laws based on the religion of majority. Be it hindus, muslims, christians, jews, sikhs, buddhists etc..
If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims) in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?

Huh? If some guy came up to you and said 'my religion commands me to murder kids in order to please my lord Beelzebub', would you allow him to do this in your secular domain ?

Now, whats this supposed to mean? Cant u plain discuss with people without being judgemental?
I can use the same Quran and judge u. But I wont. Coz u r a fellow human being like me, and I respect u for that fact,and I respect the difference in our views as well. Cant u do that?

Yes, PLEASE judge me using al-quraan. Everything I say, judge it with the book. Please do this. For once in your discourse, OPEN THE BOOK and show us where it supports your position. PLEASE.

Looks like I missed on Lotetree's confession that he is kufr. Can u enlighten us?

Lote-Tree doesn't believe in the divinity of the Quran nor its eternal laws. He's the only brave enough to admit and I respect him for it.

Let me give an example Say, u live in a country with hindu majority and they have hindu legislation, and if according to the legislation, the widows had to burnt alive along with their dead husbands(its a practice called sati that was practiced among hindus), would u be ok to follow it? Or would u prefer secular and just legislation not taking into consideration religious beliefs, and with personal freedom to practice one's religion?

Gosh, this is a FALSE dichotomy. All we have really are choices of LAWS

Law of a 'secular democracy'
Laws of various 'religious govts'

Both are LAWS.

We choose the one closer to al-quraan which is secular democracy. This doesn't make it perfect. Only what comes from al-quraan (for muslims) is perfect.

unknownuser

Hi IDMkhizar,

So you dont believe in Quran Alone then according to me since you would probably believe 9128&129 belongs to Quran.

Yes, U can have ur opinions.
My relationship with God is my own, and doesnt have to fit into ur definitions or infact anyone else's definitions of What one should believe.
I would only believe in what I can understand as truth. Yes, u and all r free to do the same.

mquran

My relationship with God is my own, and doesnt have to fit into ur definitions or infact anyone else's definitions of What one should believe.
I would only believe in what I can understand as truth. Yes, u and all r free to do the same

Especially not the Quran's. Not once have you referred to it for your principles. That's your business of course only I find it strange that a 'peaceful MUSLIM' cannot backing from his own book.

unknownuser

Hi Mquran,

My relationship with God is my own, and doesnt have to fit into ur definitions or infact anyone else's definitions of What one should believe.
I would only believe in what I can understand as truth. Yes, u and all r free to do the same

Especially not the Quran's. Not once have you referred to it for your principles. That's your business of course only I find it strange that a 'peaceful MUSLIM' cannot backing from his own book.

I have quoted enough verses to u in discussions. And U have easily misinterpreted for ur benefit.

Here are some Quote that u need to really contemplate on, and I have quoted these to u umpteen times as well

4910 The Believers are but a single Brotherhood So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy.

4911 O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor let some women laugh at others It may be that the (latter are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.

4913 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

Peace!

And if u have nothing but lack of manners, to offer repeatedly, please dont bother to have discussions with me.

Peace!

jonny_k

Yes, U can have ur opinions.
My relationship with God is my own, and doesnt have to fit into ur definitions or infact anyone else's definitions of What one should believe.
I would only believe in what I can understand as truth. Yes, u and all r free to do the same.

Khi- Salam. Ok no prblem but i wonder why your taking that risk and not study code-19 throughly. Why take a risk in not believing in a sign of GOD. Thats what im suggesting you to study it. Its upto you now. Btw PM are you male or female? GOD Bless!