What does 'islam' mean to you?
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One can clearly notice the fuss and fiasco mquran brings about unecessarily. His comprehension of what is being discussed is deterioting at every post. Baseless and foolish talks are all that is left out of this thread. "peacefulmuslim' seems to be the only one that basically understands what I am talking about.
One advantage about remaining within the traditional fold (sunni, shia etc) is that they will never knowingly disparage al-quraan. They may idolise it or accept false interpretations from thier priesthood but never will they disparage it. Modernists, naturists and rationalists on the other hand, treat al-quraan as if its simply another book which came down 'in its own time' as Danish very clearly puts it. This is born out of an unconscious need to belong to 'modern society'. To me, the ephemerality of science can never compete with hukumullah, God's permanent legislation in reality. I will do my best never to speak so carelessly about His Book. We need to ask ourselves, do we want to be muslims to Allah or muslims to 'modern values'. There is no 'two gods', there's only the one.
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One can clearly notice the fuss and fiasco mquran brings about unecessarily. His comprehension of what is being discussed is deterioting at every post. Baseless and foolish talks are all that is left out of this thread. "peacefulmuslim' seems to be the only one that basically understands what I am talking about.
One advantage about remaining within the traditional fold (sunni, shia etc) is that they will never knowingly disparage al-quraan. They may idolise it or accept false interpretations from thier priesthood but never will they disparage it. Modernists, naturists and rationalists on the other hand, treat al-quraan as if its simply another book which came down 'in its own time' as Danish very clearly puts it. This is born out of an unconscious need to belong to 'modern society'. To me, the ephemerality of science can never compete with hukumullah, God's permanent legislation in reality. I will do my best never to speak so carelessly about His Book. We need to ask ourselves, do we want to be muslims to Allah or muslims to 'modern values'. There is no 'two gods', there's only the one.
WOW! More spewing and senseless talks for entertainment purposes. Admins, please do take note.
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WOW! More spewing and senseless talks for entertainment purposes. Admins, please do take note
Danish, I have not been impolite once and have accepted your disparaging remarks but since you wish to be litigious, I will meet you on your own ground.
I already did that, i.e. giving you the taste of your own games. You should be ashamed of yourself for continuously putting up with unwanted discussion. Read and understand what is being discussed without venturing out of subject matter and becoming personal at every given post of mine. If you do not understand what I am talking about, then simply ask. You have several questions unanswered right from the get go. Learn to discipline yourself about how discussions are carried in coherent manner without getting off-track.
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Hi
I must further add to mention that while nature always existed since its creation, many revelations came down from time to time by the very nature that these revelations were called for. Quran is one such relevation that came in its own specific time which nature called for.
Prior to al-Quran, everything existed in its good and bad ways and in continuation. Torah was revealed in its specific time for what nature had called for at that time. Things got out of hand and Injeel was revealed in its specific time for what nature had called for at that time and finally when life further worsened, the Quran was revealed in its specific time for what nature had called for at that time and to carry its final message over.
Danish, the way I see it, Allah decides when to send to his revelations and to whom. He knows it before hand.
He knows what nature is and how will it be, coz its He who created it in the first place. So, in that sense, God decides on sending his revelation as He has planned out. So, its not nature that calls for revelations. But Its God who decided when to send Quran, just like He decided how nature was to be.Its all a part of God's plan.Allah is all-knowing.
So, its neither Quran that calls for nature nor nature that calls for God. Its God who decided on both.
So, Its Allah who decides when and how He will send His guidance.Now, it wasn't that difficult after all to understand my statement and the fuss and fiasco brought about by mquran was unecessary. He could have simply requested me to explain my statement further right from the start, rather than nitpicking on the word 'nature' out of its context and projecting onto the Quran to be found or not, thus taking the discussion and subject matter at martian levels.
I didnt quite inderstand why any one should get offended. It's just an opinion put forth for discussion. I dont think Danish claimed that his statement is from Quran. It was only his opinion.
I advise people in this discussion to question the motives behind the word 'nature'. This notion of al-quraan coming for its own specific time is a movement - consciously or otherwise - to place al-quraan in the relativist domain. This is why the term 'in its own specific time' is used. The next move is to subjectivise 'nature' and hey presto, we will have an al-quraan unsuitable for modern times (another relative notion created by humankind). Be wary of concepts which al-quraan doesn't specify. Al-quraan is tafseel likulli shaiyin or a detailling of every THING.
Was such a suggestion made? Danish mentioned''the Quran was revealed in its specific time for what nature had called for, at that time and to carry its final message over.''
Even according to his post, I dont see any suggestion that Quran is a message meant for specific period of time only?
Though I do not agree, nature called for Quran. But its just his opinion. And its open for discussion and exchange of views.
Whats there to get offended about?rollOne advantage about remaining within the traditional fold (sunni, shia etc) is that they will never knowingly disparage al-quraan. They may idolise it or accept false interpretations from thier priesthood but never will they disparage it. Modernists, naturists and rationalists on the other hand, treat al-quraan as if its simply another book which came down 'in its own time' as Danish very clearly puts it. This is born out of an unconscious need to belong to 'modern society'. We need to ask ourselves, do we want to be muslims to Allah or muslims to 'modern values'. There is no 'two gods', there's only the one.
What is ''muslims to 'modern values' ''? ?
And who said anything about 2 Gods?shock
Aren't muslims those who believe in one God and live a righteous life?Am I missing something? I didnt see how Danish disparaged Quran in the above post. All he suggested was nature was responsible for God to decide to send Quran...Though I dont agree with it, its just his opinion/view. Why should anyone get offended by it? And its not as if he declared it or something. Its just a discussion, isnt it? Whats wrong if he puts forth his view in a discussion? I dont really understand what the fuss is about.
And where did he disparage Quran? Have I missed something?
Peace!
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I didnt quite inderstand why any one should get offended. It's just an opinion put forth for discussion. I dont think Danish claimed that his statement is from Quran. It was only his opinion.
PM, I have to ask you, what is our supposed common criteria? I don't know about you, but to me, I'm here because this forum is meant to centralise al-quraan. Its like when you said 'be respectful to all'. Does al-quraan validate this? So same thing for Danish's comment. We can't speak about al-quraan as we like, can we?
There're some things said about language in al-quraan and what happens when you displace language (mutaharrif) from their correct places. Do read about it if you can.
Was such a suggestion made? Danish mentioned''the Quran was revealed in its specific time for what nature had called for, at that time and to carry its final message over.''
This is false. The concept of 'at a specific time' is the accusation which al-quraan repudiates most strongly. 41/53 shows that at any given time, al-quraan prophecises the truth. So there's no 'at its own specific time'.
Even according to his post, I dont see any suggestion that Quran is a message meant for specific period of time only?
Whew...that's what the whole nature comment is all about. Nature calls for this, nature calls for that. If 'nature' has now evolved, then what of the book born of nature?
Though I do not agree, nature called for Quran. But its just his opinion. And its open for discussion and exchange of views.
Whats there to get offended about?I'm not offended but insofar as in my perception Im following forum rules, I will speak out against such falsehoods. Whether people believe it or not, that's not the problem. If you follow the thread upwards, you will see that all I asked for is where al-quraan says this falsehood. If you think people shouldn't be accountable for what they say, then that's up to you. I'd be afraid to speak so carelessly about al-quraan if i believed it came from Allah.
What is ''muslims to 'modern values' ''?
Being a 'muslim' if decontextualised, i.e. taken without rooting in a text is to mean being a 'peaceful/submissive/compliant' person to a given entity. In al-quraan it means being a muslim to Allah through HIS LAWS, i.e. whatever Allah commands, you do.
So in the same way, if you're muslim to modern values, then whatever modern values dictate you do. Modernity (or should I say post-modernity) dictates for example that there is no ultimate values, that all values are relative (read Postmodernism and the Other by Sardar), the evolving human nature cannot be constricted by a single text written in its own time. Does that sound familliar to you, PM ?
And who said anything about 2 Gods?
Please tell me what you understand by the word 'ilah'?
Aren't muslims those who believe in one God and live a righteous life?
Actually no, you can be a muslim without imaan. Obviously your deeds would be pointless in the afterlife.
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This is not about what the word means, it is about what it means to you.
For me, it is about equality and justice. Also I consider it as more of a lifestyle as well. A lifestyle that is healthy and progressive and a source of knowlegde.
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PM, I have to ask you, what is our supposed common criteria? .
My criteria is "Truth".
Was such a suggestion made? Danish mentioned''the Quran was revealed in its specific time for what nature had called for, at that time and to carry its final message over.''
This is false. The concept of 'at a specific time' is the accusation which al-quraan repudiates most strongly. 41/53 shows that at any given time, al-quraan prophecises the truth. So there's no 'at its own specific time'.
And looks to me, u r the one putting a time frame to muslims such as 'muslims to modern values' etc. There is no such thing. According to my understanding, a muslim is one who believes in one God and lives a righteous life.
And its a fact, that Quran was revealed to prophet Mohammed in his lifetime(610-632 CE). So to say, Quran was revealed at a specific time period. U seem to be having a problem accepting a fact.
And as always, u have misunderstood/manipulated his statement.Peace!
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My criteria is "Truth".
Truth according to whom? If someone makes a statement about ad-deen, can you please tell me how you'd go about verifying it? For example, if someone says ad-deen says 'be nice to everyone' ?
And looks to me, u r the one putting a time frame to muslims such as 'muslims to modern values' etc. There is no such thing. According to my understanding, a muslim is one who believes in one God and lives a righteous life.
Ah, a good time to use your 'truth' criteria above. How can we verify this? To me , it's possible to be muslim without belief (49/14) but it appears we disagree. Please show me how we'd go about solving this 'riddle'.
And its a fact, that Quran was revealed to prophet Mohammed in his lifetime(610-632 CE). So to say, Quran was revealed at a specific time period. U seem to be having a problem accepting a fact.
Funnily, al-quraan says its being revealed at present, to us (3/84, 6/114, both of which uses the verb 'nzl' to PLURAL recepients).
And as always, u have misunderstood/manipulated his statement.
Thank you for the accusation.
BTW, you omitted my explanation
PM Even according to his post, I dont see any suggestion that Quran is a message meant for specific period of time only?
MQWhew...that's what the whole nature comment is all about. Nature calls for this, nature calls for that. If 'nature' has now evolved, then what of the book born of nature?
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Do they seek for other than the diin of Allah? While all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (aslama/islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.
According to this verse islam is bowed to Hius Will, means all nature (sun, planets, moon, earth, trees, worms, birds etc) already be muslims, the creatures that have been already commiting to life accoring to what Allah order to them.
Men are not likely, men life with his own idiology, even who making prayer to God, they refuse to establish life as ruled by God. They prefer to abide their own way of live, so they are not deserve to be called as muslim. They are mushollin, not muslim.