What does 'islam' mean to you?
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Leyla Thanks for reminding us of surah 82.
However, I am not sure (yet) if I would accept your interpretation here entirely.
See,
I would say that now the command is also for God.
And also I would say that now no soul has power aught for another as well.
I agree that surah 82 is in a certain way describing a specific event, though.
However, this event is a developing process, a stretched event, if you want. Starting with creation and culminating in resurrection.
A process of destruction and termination.
See, when you look at e.g. 82/2 this is not something that just will happen sometime in the future. It is happening now already. It has started already with the creation of the universe. The whole universe in constantly in a state of loss, moving towards its creator.
Humanity itself is constantly in a state of loss as well (e.g. 103/2?).
As some people say, you constantly die since the day you were born. You can not escape this eternal law.
This does not begin in the future. It will find its culmination, its climax then, yes. But it started with creation already, it is part of Allah?s d?n.
What will be seen in the future is already recorded now (82/10-11).
And it was already written down/ordained by Allah before (9/51).
With this in mind I see it as possible to read 82/14-15 as `the wrongdoers are in the hellfire, since they entered the process of the rulings of God?.
This is what is already ordained now for every wrongdoer. This is how the laws of the d?n are working now for them.
The only way to change these workings is to change your identity from a wrongdoer to someone better, to step into another flow of the process.
Then 82/13 applies. Again it will apply now already.I'm sorry I can't agree with you here because chapter 82 is a series of 'izaa's or 'whens'. Further, 82/5 says the nafs will get to know what its put forward and kept back. This concords nicely with al-quraan's concept of ajl. When your ajl runs out, that's it.
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Danish NATURE/SIGNS/GUIDANCE has, is and always will be our teacher, without which there would be no books. In other words, NATURE has taught man to write books, not the other way round.
Danish, is your criteria al-quraan? Im just asking because nowhere does al-quraan say this. Al-quraan asserts that Ar-rahmaan taught al-quraan and evolved al-insaan and taught him al-bayaan. Its fair enough if its not criteria, I'm only asking as I don't want to waste time.
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Leyla, first, when it comes to the hstory of the north american people, war was not faught like you think. At various times attacks where made, kidnapping etc but mostly over survival and territory. Cultural beliefes were very similar. Also, in MANY tribes, the wars were faught by putting TWO people out there to count coup. The first one to smack the other with a stick won, end of story. Pretty damn enlightened if you ask me.
Now as for the quoran, I have never once said that I studied it, now would I really. I don't see any need to study something that was obviously intended for a people of a certain geographic area, if in fact it was "god's" word. Why else would it be in such a geographically specific language. Second, why would I pour over pages trying to analyze it? Nt my cup o tea. I have stated MY beliefes and done my best NOT to step on anyone else's, though being human it happens.
Also, please remember that when you discuss anything with me, the only language I speak is English, regretably, and do not have a working understanding of arabic at all. Nor to I have a translater program. Any reference to the koran and it's verse's is lost on me without at least a briefe paraphrasing. I am not here to argue faith, or to seek any kind of epiphany or spiritual answers. Just to discuss the various philosophies and workings and perhaps how they directly effect the workings of the world on both persoanl and global scales.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
personally see no need to study, analyze, memorize or carry around any book in order to know god. Nor do I see any reason to put anyone else between myself and the creator as is practiced in any religion involving preiests rabbis or any other term for the same. I have a very personal relationship with the creator that does not rely on anyone else's words or translation of words. It is not steeped in language or even history. It involves the here and now. It involves myself and my place in the circle of life. God created noah and moses and cane and able and the whole famdamily that everyone is so into, but he also created me and MY family. Now I can either choose to spend time and energy on the who what and where of 2500 years ago, or I can live inthe here and now and know the creator in my heart, in the wind and the water, in the earth beneath my feet and even in the squirrels and rabbits that seem to think I spend all summer tending a garden simply so they can bulk up for winter.
The creator reach out to different people in different places in different ways for a reason. I respect those differences. I don't always respect what man chose to do with the knowledge presented to him, but I am still human for the time being and not without my own faults.
I have no religion or faith, but I have deep spiritual beliefes and an ever growing personal philosphy that works for ME. That is all I am saying here. My sister uses the church and what she gets from it as a means to her ends and that is totally fine, in fact it is a beautiful thing and I hope and pray that it does fill her with a joy that I have attained. Different strokes for different folks
I see no error in your comments and I see no contradiction with what the proclomation (quran) states. You are correct, thee is no book tha needs to be carried around as "Holy", but what I dont want you to miss is that the "Book" that is being discussed in this proclamation(quran) is teh UNIVERSE and Its Laws, which were set in place by the Source of Creation. Yes, the God teaches us through creation, and the human is part of that creation. Man , from time to time, reaches a level of ONENESS(thats the key) and PEACE (the other key) that allows him/her to INTUIT divine Law. Sometimes it is written down and these messages become 'Holy" books, etc.
The word "religion" means to "tie back". The focus of religions are to tie man back to God, because right now man thinks he is seperate from the God, not realizing the connection of all things.
Once you are tied back, you dont need "religion", you dont necessarilly need these books, because they were pointing you to the BOOK(Universal law) anyway. I know the verses of this reading(quran) you are not familiar with, but let me make you familiar with this one verse so you can keep it in mind while discussing nature.
(4153) "We will show them Our signs in the horizons and in their spirits, until (it) becomes clear/explained for them that it (is) the truth ...."
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Peace be upon you brother MQ,
idolfree1 wrote
Peace be upon you MQ,
If the God blesses someone, there is nothing the human can do about it, likewise for the "punishment". If I choose to jump off a building, no one can change the laws of gravity to keep me from falling to the ground.Yes, but that's just one person. Chapter 82 is dealing with an event of a huge proporition. An entire change takes place and the command is pointed back to Allah.
That which is law for one person is law for everyone. Yes, chapter 82 deals with an event of huge proprtion, I agree, but it is each choice we make that makes life changing effects. It is Huge D he command is always to the Unifying/Governing princple of life, that which we describe as "God/Allah".
I think you've limited your metaphorisation to just signs in the self, Kylester. Don't forget that signs also exist in the earth (51/20-21)
I am not forgetting the worldy signs, they are the same as within. But I talk a lot about the inner signs becaus these are the ones that effect the behavior of man and ths the outer world. The God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier spirits(nafs).
I view the message of the God as a RIGHT NOW message. The human is a GROWTH, always in a state of BECOMING, so we have to be in the NOW.
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I disagree, each day is momentous when we maintain our AWE of creation, and likewise, the time of judgement, (the effects of our choices) are momentous.That's great but al-quraan already has concepts for this taqwa and hamd.
I am not following, I have taqwa as "the protection of oneness" and hamd as "exaltation". Please elaborate according to your understanding of those words how these words address the previous statement.
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Can you imagine how a person would act if they treated each decision with the AWE of a momentous occasion? This is how it should be, but most of mankind are lulled to sleep, waiting for a FINAL Judgement, which there will be because there is cause and effect in all things, but we have to concentrate on the day to day judgementsObservation of the world will tell you that not how it works.
How so? When I observe someone who is careful in thier decisions, takes time to think them through and leaves emotion out of the picture, they succeed over the one who rushes to decide, not caring of the effects, not understanding how they can be life changing, who chooses based on emotional influence.
Warmongers are currently pillaging the world, buddy. Thier judgement hasn't come yet. Al-quraan says to follow inspiration and endure UNTIL the judgement of Allah comes (HATTA yahkum Allah.., 10/109)
Sometimes effects come right away, sometimes they take longer time, but they always come. You have to see the logic in making BIG each and every choice over making big only the total effect.
So it appears to me that there's a time delay in the law of equal and opposite reaction.
Time is an illusion of seperation, when we realize that all is ONE, then what we do to another we really do to ourselves.
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Now as for the quoran, I have never once said that I studied it, now would I really. I don't see any need to study something that was obviously intended for a people of a certain geographic area, if in fact it was "god's" word. Why else would it be in such a geographically specific language. Second, why would I pour over pages trying to analyze it? Nt my cup o tea. I have stated MY beliefes and done my best NOT to step on anyone else's, though being human it happens.
So because a text is in particular language, it must have been meant for a particular people? So no book really has a chance in your....well, 'book' because all texts must come in some language.
Sadly sir, your logic doesn't follow. This book which you never once said you've studied has never limited itself to an ethnic or linguistic group. It's laws can function in any human situation and produce the same result.
Of course you're not stepping on anyone's toes. In fact, you're better than anyone who claims to believe but refuses to judge with the book. The Quran itself asserts this. I respect your candor but you shouldn't feel disturbed, this is only a discussion.
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Peace be upon you MQ,
fact, you're better than anyone who claims to believe but refuses to judge with the book.
Which "book" are we judging by "quran" or the "Universe"? If its the universe, then Saw tooth , I think, fits that category. The God tells us to judge by what has been revealed to us, this includes people other than followers of "quran", we are ALL to judge by the Book, this must be universal law.
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Peace be upon you brother MQ,
That which is law for one person is law for everyone. Yes, chapter 82 deals with an event of huge proprtion, I agree, but it is each choice we make that makes life changing effects. It is Huge he command is always to the Unifying/Governing princple of life, that which we describe as "God/Allah".Agreed. Each small choice which you make (with taqwa or without) ends up in evoking this major event. I can't see that 'Allah' is a 'unifying principle' though. Allah is how is He describes Himself and His ahkaam/laws are different.
I am not forgetting the worldy signs, they are the same as within. But I talk a lot about the inner signs becaus these are the ones that effect the behavior of man and ths the outer world. The God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier spirits(nafs).
Agreed. I'm just concerned about how your interpretative style, man. It's limitng the scope of the book.
I view the message of the God as a RIGHT NOW message. The human is a GROWTH, always in a state of BECOMING, so we have to be in the NOW.
It is, but it's also an eternal prediction of social living as well.
I am not following, I have taqwa as "the protection of oneness" and hamd as "exaltation". Please elaborate according to your understanding of those words how these words address the previous statement.
Taqwa is mindfulness of Allah through the obedience of his laws. It leads t self-preservation. Hamd is a state of relief or thankfulness which Nuh and his followers experience when they escaped. It's these heightened states which help us to maximise our day to day living in the light of Allah.
How so? When I observe someone who is careful in thier decisions, takes time to think them through and leaves emotion out of the picture, they succeed over the one who rushes to decide, not caring of the effects, not understanding how they can be life changing, who chooses based on emotional influence.
Well, take cancer of the lungs. One cigarette won't give it to you. A hundred might not trigger it. But your judgement will come ultimately.
Sometimes effects come right away, sometimes they take longer time, but they always come. You have to see the logic in making BIG each and every choice over making big only the total effect.
The total effect is what im arguing for here. It exists.
Time is an illusion of seperation, when we realize that all is ONE, then what we do to another we really do to ourselves.
Sadly, in this earthly consciousness, we live in these string of moments. So this is how we need to play it. Be alive in every moment and be prepared for the ultimate judgement.
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Well if you look at it geographically, each area has a history of some great teacher or teachings sent by the creator to help heal the ways of the people. Now what if, just what if... They were all right? What if they are ALL right given the time and place? This is what I am talking about. I don't believe there is ONE single teaching to follow, but wisdom braught to all corners of the world. So no matter which one you choose to look at, if you choose to at all, you are in fact gaining the knowledge of the creator. Geography and culture is so different as you travel the world and those differences directly affect the actions of the people and how they live so it makes sense that the creator would impart wisdom that would suit the people, doesn't it? I mean in some areas it makes sense for survial for a man to have more than one wife (ratios of men to women and such) and in others areas such as the remote mountains of Tibet, women marry the entire family of brothers. The religious teachings, all having been claimed to be braught by the creator, reflect this. If you were looking down and running everythig, wouldn't you want the laws you present to represent the individual needs of the people in question?
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......If you were looking down and running everythig, wouldn't you want the laws you present to represent the individual needs of the people in question?
Good question sawtooth. Herein lies the question is there a universal essence to man?
I contend that there is. And I contend that this is essence can be discovered though the facticity of our existence. For example, we cant be human without physically being human, so our existential reality MUST speak of our essence etc etc.
Once our essence has been understood, we must seek a system whereby the essential needs are met. So far as I have witnessed through my reading, al-quraan is the book which fulfils the need to the letter. I understand that this is simply an assertion and nothing short of actualisation of its promises will be objective.
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Salam Sawtooth,
Well if you look at it geographically, each area has a history of some great teacher or teachings sent by the creator to help heal the ways of the people. Now what if, just what if... They were all right? What if they are ALL right given the time and place? This is what I am talking about. I don't believe there is ONE single teaching to follow, but wisdom braught to all corners of the world. So no matter which one you choose to look at, if you choose to at all, you are in fact gaining the knowledge of the creator. Geography and culture is so different as you travel the world and those differences directly affect the actions of the people and how they live so it makes sense that the creator would impart wisdom that would suit the people, doesn't it? I mean in some areas it makes sense for survial for a man to have more than one wife (ratios of men to women and such) and in others areas such as the remote mountains of Tibet, women marry the entire family of brothers. The religious teachings, all having been claimed to be braught by the creator, reflect this. If you were looking down and running everythig, wouldn't you want the laws you present to represent the individual needs of the people in question?
JK- Your absolutely right in your first statements. Indeed the Quran says
Those who disbelieved say, "If only a miracle could come down to him from his Lord (we will then believe)." You are simply a warner - every community receives a guiding teacher.
We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry." Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.
However the Quran also says that Muhammad was the last Prophet, thus bringing th e last scri?ture by which all coming messengers are to judge and so did RK. Thats because the Quran says
....Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you....
...Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was A messenger of GOD and THE final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Thus we see that the Quran is for all times otherwise well have to say that Muhammad was wrong in the Message he delieverd but ceratinly thats not the case. GOD will continue to send messengers but NOT a new scripture or law since that in the Quran was calculated by GOD to be good till the day of judgement and GOD is the best of reckoners. GOD Bless! -
So then the teachigs braught to the entire world are correct. So then while al the hate in this world. Why all the murder in the name of a god?
mquran, I am happy for you that you have found what you needed, i too have found what I need. They are not really so different, when stripped to what really matters
Now if only the world could realize this and allow poeple to find their way and coexist at the same time.
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Which "book" are we judging by "quran" or the "Universe"? If its the universe, then Saw tooth , I think, fits that category. The God tells us to judge by what has been revealed to us, this includes people other than followers of "quran", we are ALL to judge by the Book, this must be universal law
Kyle, 'universal law' if acquired through observation, i.e. empirical means wouldnt make sense at all. As I pointed out to sawtooth here, an observer observing European man during a certain century would contend that its natural law for European man to be superior to African man (so-called 3/5'ths man, thier natural laws deduced).
This is why we need a book which transcends time and tells us our destiny. It operates within the self and the earth and we cannot escape it. Natural law is nothing but the laws we PROJECT unto nature, not filter from it.
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Peace be upon you MQ,
I am not disagreeing with the total effect, all I am saying is that each decision is a judgement, mankind needs to understand that. I will pick this discussion back up when I do the proper study. I realize , thanks to Leyla, that there are several different statements being discussed.
Taqwa is mindfulness of Allah through the obedience of his laws. It leads t self-preservation. Hamd is a state of relief or thankfulness which Nuh and his followers experience when they escaped. It's these heightened states which help us to maximise our day to day living in the light of Allah.
I like these definitions, I will check them.
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So then the teachigs braught to the entire world are correct. So then while al the hate in this world. Why all the murder in the name of a god?
mquran, I am happy for you that you have found what you needed, i too have found what I need. They are not really so different, when stripped to what really matters
Now if only the world could realize this and allow poeple to find their way and coexist at the same time.
Sawtooth, if you familiarised yourself with one of the major contentions of this forum , that people in the world known as 'muslims' reject the teachings of the quran, you would understand that al-quraan has been misrepresented thoroughly. The end result of this is 'pan-islamic racism' which is what i percieve sunnism to be.
Im happy that you choose the values you've chosen to. . Im proposing that you read al-quraan and see if it concepts can benefit you, that's all.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
Please list some values you hold dear from life experience, if you do not object. Then we can , just as an exercise, see if this reading(quran) holds the same values.
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I am not disagreeing with the total effect, all I am saying is that each decision is a judgement, mankind needs to understand that. I will pick this discussion back up when I do the proper study. I realize , thanks to Leyla, that there are several different statements being discussed.
Each decision IS a judgement on our part, but we're not BEING judged in each decision. 10/109 tells that God's judgement comes after a period of time (hatta or until is used, as i've pointed out) and that's known as 'the hour'.
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Peace be upon you MQ,
Each decision IS a judgement on our part, but we're not BEING judged in each decision.
Sure we are, thats the essence of reaping what you sow broher
10/109 tells that God's judgement comes after a period of time (hatta or until is used, as i've pointed out) and that's known as 'the hour'.
Yes, the effect cant come at the same point in time, thats why its the effect, it comes after(time) the cause.
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Sure we are, thats the essence of reaping what you sow broher
Kyle, you yourself said. "The ice-creams finally caught up with me". One visit to Baskin robbins won't kill you but if its habitual then one day you'll wake up with 'the body that ice-cream built'. THAT's the judgement im talkin about.
Yes, the effect cant come at the same point in time, thats why its the effect, it comes after(time) the cause.
Right and the verse started with 'follow the inspiration and be PATIENT (asbir)...why ? Because the time delay can be frustratiing. This shows that judgement is being awaited for quite a while here.
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Peace be upon you MQ,
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Sure we are, thats the essence of reaping what you sow broherKyle, you yourself said. "The ice-creams finally caught up with me". One visit to Baskin robbins won't kill you but if its habitual then one day you'll wake up with 'the body that ice-cream built'. THAT's the judgement im talkin about.
Good example, but cant you see its that "subliminal affrimation" that "one visit wont kill me" that added up to one visit + one visit + one visit, etc
You see, if we take EACH DECISION as a great event, then I would be less likely to treat "only one time" so carelessly.
The reality is that each time I put icecream into my mouth, I was getting a small effect each time.
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Yes, the effect cant come at the same point in time, thats why its the effect, it comes after(time) the cause.Right and the verse started with 'follow the inspiration and be PATIENT (asbir)...why ? Because the time delay can be frustratiing. This shows that judgement is being awaited for quite a while here.
If you stick your hand in fire , how long before you are judged?