Quran - The Word of God or Man.
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lotetree wrote...
Then you can't go ahead and say because it claims it is from God therefore it is so or can you? If that was the case then you might as well as take work of David Ike seriouslyi do not think i have as yet said that because it claims to be from god it is from god! pehrhaps u are misunderstanding and hence quoting me out of context! i said if u say it is the work of some man, then u say that the man lies that it is the book of god! so do u propose that whoever wrote that book has lied about it being a revelation of god?
lotetree wrote...
It came through a human being and therefore you can never be sure if it is Divine word or man's word. There is no way of getting around this.exaclty, so what would according to u would constitute as proof?
lotetree wrote...
You either believe in it or you don't.now that u have urself come up with a do or dont, what do u pick? that it is the word of god; or that it is a work of man who has lied therein that it be the word of god? -)
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Salaam Ahmed,
Danish
you are missing the point that I raised before
if you write a book, then you will put your name on it, exactly as the bibles or any other human book
now please tell me why the human authors of the Quran didn't claim the glory of the Quran?
I need a rationle answer please
thanks
In order to answer your concerns and for you to understand my perspectives, you too must confer rationally and not with closed-mindedness by insisting and deliberating that everything mentioned in the Quran are absolute GOD's Words because it says so and that's it, without proofs. That's a layman's approach. Now lets start with the following verses and then read ahead
8013-16
Khalifa
In honorable scriptures.
Exalted and pure.
(Written) by the hands of messengers.
Who are honorable and righteous.Yusuf Ali
(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
(Written) by the hands of scribes-
Honourable and Pious and Just.Pickthal
On honoured leaves
Exalted, purified,
(Set down) by scribes
Noble and righteous.Shakir
In honored books,
Exalted, purified,
In the hands of scribes
Noble, virtuous."Progressive Muslims"
In scripts which are honourable.
Raised and pure.
By the hands of revealed ones.
Honourable and righteous.And here is what I wrote at the beginning of this thread in relations to above verses
?that the Quran is NOT the actual word of GOD but of man or men of intelligence and wisdom, collectively put together for the betterment of a righteous society.I believe all spiritual books were written and carried over by philosophical/mystical men in accordance with historical and the then present events that unfolded during their respective times.
The Quran is clearly seen written with short, incomplete and repetitious sentences at many places. Besides, it came in stages over a span of time (see verses below), perhaps many years. This shows, mentioned in history books as well, that the words, phrases and sentences were actually written at various points on various materials (parchments, leaves, stones, wood, etc.) by several men, as and when the messages were dictated and then later collected, revamped and compiled into a book form. This very book was then further re-arranged and processed by a set of attributed pronounceable words and verse/chapter numberings along with individual chapter titles, all of which are purely men?s works. Today, we witness a few versions of them, one of which is a re-mastered mathematical one, deemed as the most authentic and authored by yet another messenger named Rashad Khalifa, only to find out its continued complexness and ever twisting and mocking of just about every word in the entire Quran, that no man today can better understand than the other, and yet calling it GOD?s Words.
I hope you can see why the Quran doesn?t have an author's or "bunch of humans" names imprinted on the cover of the book.
17106
Khalifa
A Quran that we have released slowly, in order for you to read it to the people over a long period, although we sent it down all at once.Yusuf Ali
(It is) a Qur'an which We have divided (into parts from time to time), in order that thou mightest recite it to men at intervals We have revealed it by stages.Pickthal
And (it is) a Qur'an that We have divided, that thou mayst recite it unto mankind at intervals, and We have revealed it by (successive) revelation.Shakir
And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions."Progressive Muslims"
And a Quran that We have separated, so that you may read it for the people over time; and We have brought it down gradually.I'll reply to your other concerns in stages.
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Thank you danish
I like the stages thingy, we should be organised for a constructive discussion, therefore please hold on until I reply to the above and after we totally finalise this point we can move to the next, please consider that an option of finalising the point is we agree to disagree
i'm heading to work now and will be busy for a couple of hours then see if I can respond from there, if not then it has to happen after I come back from work which about 9 hours from now
peace
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Salaam Ahmed,
- clearly it says the Quran was revealed on Mohammad, not a bunch of humans
The "bunch of humans" thingy has been elaborated in my last post. As far as "the Quran was revealed on Mohammad" by GOD goes, here's my 2p
Firstly, as I understand it, the word ?GOD? is purely a mystical/philosophical one for obvious reasons. Secondly, a ?revelation? is something revealing or make known to, for what is embedded in ones' mind by inspiration, thoughts, meditation, reflection and reasoning, by virtue of event/circumstance that one witnesses every moment of ones' life.
Every human (including the blind), at various levels, have certain instincts born within them that reflect their lives in which they live. There?s no possible way to evaluate these perceptions to have been directed and reputed by GOD, but by evaluating, reasoning and weighing in, in what is profoundly measured by reality/nature in that moment of time and space by which we speak about as being ?inspired or revealed by GOD?.
- clealy it says no humans can write something like it
Similar books have been written throughout history of mankind and the Quran itself mentions it as well. One just doesn't add up and look at it realistically, simply because in which they have been taught and bought up.
- it clearly warned mohammad of adding or modifing its content
Explained in previous post. Besides, just how does one know what has been added/modified or not and with what mindset can you state with affirmation, and not just because the verse says so?
I see what is confusing you is something in the Arabic Balagha called Iltifat, this is important to understand before you just judge it by sura 1 where it is talking from the believers perspective
The "believers perspective", exactly my point and as elaborated above in your first point.
...and sura one is nothing but a lesson from Allah to teach us how to praise Him and ask for forgivness, that is whay we read it in ever salat and that is why the Bismellah is a verse in there
Does the Quran mention saying that one must recite sura 1 in every raka in salaat? Besides, what is salaat as understood by you (as a ritual prayer) is totally out of question for me. So where do we stand now and what has become of what you call "GOD's Words"?
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Danish
you are missing the point that I raised before
if you write a book, then you will put your name on it, exactly as the bibles or any other human book
now please tell me why the human authors of the Quran didn't claim the glory of the Quran?
I need a rationle answer please
thanks
Salaam Ahmed,
Salam mate
In order to answer your concerns and for you to understand my perspectives, you too must confer rationally
sure bro, but you have to understand the following strong rationale
what is belief?
It is to belief in something that was unseen
Therefore and by using logic, to believe in something , that thing should be unseen,
For example if I see God then I don?t need to believe in His existence because I saw Him for real and consequently it is been confirmed not is not a belief any more, if you agree on this then we can continue our discussion, if you don?t agree then you have to refute it first
and not with closed-mindedness
I actually never been closed minded in my life
by insisting and deliberating that everything mentioned in the Quran are absolute GOD's Words
well, here we have a problem, firstly there is no one who claimed to have authored the Quran but Allah, therefore it has to be His unless someone comes in and say sorry I authored this book
for example if a group of people in a pub and someone find 100 bucks on the floor, then that guy acted honestly and shouted if any lost any money and how much, one person from that crowd came forward and stated that this money is his, NO ONE ELSE IN THE VICINITY CLAIMED THE SAME, therefore IT MUST BE HIS, unless another person comes in and say sorry this money is mine, if this happens then we have a bigf problem and no one will know who owns the money, the Quran is the exactly the same, NO ONE BUT ALLAH CLAIMED TO HAVE AITHORED THE BOOK AS WELL PROTECT IT, then logically speaking it must be His, we can also see a history of over 1400 years that the words been preserved therefore what we read in this book does not really sound silly rather it is becomes more evident that the Quran can?t be by any other than Allah, especially in over 1400 years no human claimed to be the author of the Quran
add to the above the belief in the unseen as a requirement to be a Muslim, then we have to believe that this book is as it claims, because we didnlt see Allah wrote this book, because if we did then the belief in it as a message from God is spoiled and does not make sense any more
it is all part of the belief my friend and you really sound like some atheists who only believe in matter
because it says so and that's it,
of course, this is part of the belief in the unseen as I explained
without proofs.
what proofs exactly?
For Allah to come and say that He authored this book?, well He did so in the Quran, but I guess you want to see Him for real saying that, well you don?t need the belief then bro, got it
That's a layman's approach.
bro forget the layman approach, there is only one approach for the Quran, which is believing it is the words of Allah that was delivered to Mohammad then following it
Now lets start with the following verses and then read ahead
8013-16
Khalifa
In honorable scriptures.
Exalted and pure.
(Written) by the hands of messengers.
Who are honorable and righteous.Yusuf Ali
(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
(Written) by the hands of scribes-
Honourable and Pious and Just.Pickthal
On honoured leaves
Exalted, purified,
(Set down) by scribes
Noble and righteous.Shakir
In honored books,
Exalted, purified,
In the hands of scribes
Noble, virtuous."Progressive Muslims"
In scripts which are honourable.
Raised and pure.
By the hands of revealed ones.
Honourable and righteous.I guess you mean that everyone of the above translated the words differently?, well, thanks for that, that proves my point, because what you showed me above is the words of men not the words of Allah, sorry it does not look like the Arabic Quran to me
And here is what I wrote at the beginning of this thread in relations to above verses
?that the Quran is NOT the actual word of GOD but of man or men of intelligence and wisdom, collectively put together for the betterment of a righteous society.but you provided no proofs but a list or some English translations by a few men, bro your evidence can not be admissible, we are talking the real words which was in Arabic and we only have one copy of it and no man claimed to be written it, as you can see from you example above, you associated a man with every translation, why?, simply because they claimed to have done it, LOL bro, I hope you get my very valid and logical point
I believe all spiritual books were written and carried over by philosophical/mystical men in accordance with historical and the then present events that unfolded during their respective times.
fine and I agree with that, but that has nothing to do with the Arabic Quran as the real words of Allah, humans can philosophise aas much as they want, but to be mystical and never link themselves to that great book, I guess they were stupid men not wise at all, there is no logical refute on why a book author hide him/herself
The Quran is clearly seen written with short, incomplete and repetitious sentences at many places.
that is you flawed impression really, firstly the short sentences is one of its great language miracle, where you get plenty of info with the least words possible, it is complete as far as the guidance and passing the test is concerned, but I will not read in how to make an omelette, the repetitions are also one of its great language miracle, the way you said it as if it is repeated with the exact words , while the repeated verses with exact words are very lil. Possibly less than 10 out of thousands, the other type of repetitions is the miraculous one because it repeats the story or the warning using different Arabic words while the meaning stays the same, this is great indeed, human book authors never do that.
From the above your three impressions about the Quran are unfounded, a bit misleading and inline that you lack the proper understanding to this important message, sorry
Besides, it came in stages over a span of time (see verses below), perhaps many years.
yeh about 23 years, but what is wrong with that?, the Quran actually lived with the prophet life, in fact the Quran is the real prophet Hadith and Sunnah, because in many incidents we see verses that was revealed to the prophet regarding a specific incident that happened during his time, also Allah told us in the Quran that He planned to reveal it slowly therefore the Author od the Quran didn?t lie to us rather told us the exact truth and that is what you expect from a Just God
This shows, mentioned in history books as well, that the words, phrases and sentences were actually written at various points on various materials (parchments, leaves, stones, wood, etc.) by several men, as and when the messages were dictated and then later collected, revamped and compiled into a book form.
But Allah told us that He will collect it, the protect it, I guess Allah will not come down here and collect then stand next to it protecting it bro, Allah causes the reasons and the reasons are executed by the humans without them being aware at all
This very book was then further re-arranged and processed by a set of attributed pronounceable words and verse/chapter numberings along with individual chapter titles, all of which are purely men?s works.
for me I see it as Allah made these people to work for that task without them knowing, very simple bro, Allah can do anything He wants, also in this life He always does it without spoiling the main test we all going through
Today, we witness a few versions of them, one of which is a re-mastered mathematical one, deemed as the most authentic and authored by yet another messenger named Rashad Khalifa, only to find out its continued complexness and ever twisting and mocking of just about every word in the entire Quran, that no man today can better understand than the other, and yet calling it GOD?s Words.
bro Satan is very clever and he took the oath to screw us all, only the winners who will be able to overcome him, this is true as the Quran told us, don?t please come and tell me this weak argument that I?m blaming Satan because I?m not, I?m only saying the fact as stated in the Quran numerous times, I myself worl hard everyday to fight Satan, and it is obvious that many humans regardless what faith they follow has fallen to his tricks, no excuse for them though as Allah has given them the following
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a brain
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the plot was told
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the messengers were sent
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the warning was delivered
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the warning was preserved
regarding Rashad Khalifa, well I read all his work more than once, I also watched all his videos, bro this man is no messengers, he is a conman or another Dajjal, but as you can see how many humans fell under his tricks, this confirm what I told you about Satan
I hope you can see why the Quran doesn?t have an author's or "bunch of humans" names imprinted on the cover of the book.
the Author is written inside the book and that is very catching n its own merit because you normally read the author name once on the front, but with the Quran the Author kept saying that he is the Aithoor od this book many times inside the book
17106
Khalifa
A Quran that we have released slowly, in order for you to read it to the people over a long period, although we sent it down all at once.Yusuf Ali
(It is) a Qur'an which We have divided (into parts from time to time), in order that thou mightest recite it to men at intervals We have revealed it by stages.Pickthal
And (it is) a Qur'an that We have divided, that thou mayst recite it unto mankind at intervals, and We have revealed it by (successive) revelation.Shakir
And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions."Progressive Muslims"
And a Quran that We have separated, so that you may read it for the people over time; and We have brought it down gradually.I'll reply to your other concerns in stages.
The verse you posted above have no merit for disputing that it is the true words of Allah or not, because clearly the words above are not by Allah rather by the authors you linked their names to it,
The verse above means one thing to me in Arabic, and if I translate it it will be simply, Allah is telling us that He deliberately revealed the Quran over long time so it is read slowly to the people and NOT overwhelmed, especially it is the last message
I will respond to your second comment later tonigt inshaallah
Peace be with you
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This is something in the Arabic grammar and I could not see any confusion whatsoever, the Quran contains stories and Allah as an author chose to implement something called Balagha which include something called Iltifat and this technique is used intensively in the Quran and the Arabic language professionals were stunned by this high level of balagha
I will grant you this assertion. However, it does raise more questions to which I do not have an answer. What came first, balagha in Arabic literature, or the Qur'an? Is the concept of balagha something that was invented to explain the way the Koran is written?
Yes and this is very common in the Arabic and Hebrew languages, it is for honour and respect, the Queen of England always refer to herself as we
Again, what came first God using the plural to refer to himself (as you claim) or the usage of the structure in the semitic languages? If the scriptures are the earliest evidence of such a structure, is it not possible that the semitic peoples interpreted "we" wrongly as being God and not the angels, and therefore a new grammatic construct was born in the languages? As for finding it in other languages, I have no doubt that other civilization have gotten divine revelations in the same manner as the semitic Prophets.
sure the jews is a big target audience in the Quran, but you are missing the point actually, their numerous mentions in the Quran are due to the numerous prophets sent to them that the Quran mention them, in fact it seems to me that the jews are cursed in the Quran, I guess this can be a message of mercy to them so they wake up
The Quran audience is the whole world as it says about itself
I know that in general the whole world is the target audience. However, there are certain places where a specific target, like the Jews, is mentioned... and I think in this case the direct message is meant for that specific target, whereas the moral of the story is meant for the whole world.
I?m not sure about that, but you are right that there is Umm a Kitab up there and I believe the Quran is just a small part of it
The issue of we and I has lil significance in the language structure other than Balagha and its purpose is to show honor and respect
Allah is telling us that we should honour Him and that is part of worshipping Him
I think here is perhaps where we have a big fundamental difference in opinion, which perhaps stems from a different reading of 37. I read it to say that there are two parts to the Qur'an
- Umm al Kitab - the immutable laws that do not change, that which God has promised will not change (when he promised to guard the book from any changes), which apply to all of humanity (all the universe actually)
- the other/allegorical/ambiguous - stories to try to explain to the receiving people (the arabs) the good ways and the bad ways to follow the laws, and also supplementary, more specific laws in order to promote good governance among the receiving people, so that they would be inclined to follow the immutable laws of Umm al Kitab. It is useless to try to interpret these outside the context of the history, culture, beliefs, current events of the receiving people (the arabs in the case of the Qur'an). Thus the warning against trying to interpret in 37.
Thus, I will grant to you that it is very much possible that all of Umm al Kitab has not made its way to the Qur'an you and I hold in our hands, though I have not seen any evidence to support that assertion. However, given what I have outlined above, I will say that there are things in the Qur'an that you and I hold in our hands that are not in the Umm al Kitab, and I think 37 states that very clearly. So that brings us to the question of authorship. I have no doubt in my mind that God is the sole creator of the Umm al Kitab. However, could it perhaps be a task of the angels to take this book and transmit it to the different peoples of the world, in a manner which they can understand given their historical and cultural context (I'm not saying it is, but I don't think there is definite proof either way here).
It follows from this kind of logic that when revelations were given to other peoples through their respective messengers (as the Qur'an said had been done), they contained the same Umm al Kitab, as well as a lot of allegory/specificity that could only be correctly understood in the context in which they were received, a context which is nearly impossible to correctly reconstruct even a few centuries later. What is unfortunate is that the religions of the world have chosen to focus on their differences, that is the allegory and the specificity, instead of recognizing there all immutable laws that all of us have received, and that all our various rituals and specificities are local (which doesn't mean that they are bad or evil, but simply that they are tradition and not immutable laws).
Your problem is you can?t come to grip that these are the true words of our God, that is also part of the belief btw
You see, I put God so high that while I fully believe his authoship of the Umm al Kitab, I do question the premise that he wrote things about Muhammed's Uncle (1111) in his immutable laws. I think this is more like the angels working at God's service giving an example of someone who is not following the immutable laws.
impossible as the Quran was crystal clear in numerous locations that there is only one God named Allah, and He is the author of the Quran, in fact the Quran told us that the angels are ignorant in anything Allah didn?t teach them, i.e. there are many words the angels don?t know as stated in the Quran, yet to write a book of guidance and hide their identity, it does not add up bro
References please?
people can keep questioning as much as they wish, all the answers regarding God and faith is in the book though (only for the reasonable questions that does not conflict with the fact that we are setting a test) for example you can NOT ask, what Allah looks like?
Agreed... so now our task is to try and figure what is Umm al Kitab and what is not.
this only applies to the ones whose in hearts there is a perversity as 37 is telling us, 37 is also a warning to the believers not to chase the confusing verses meanings as it is only a test and Allah is the only entity that knows its meaning
Linking the quran verses, is a must for understanding the Quran and that is what it means by ?Fully detailed? and ?The Quran explains itself?
peace
Again, we are in agreement. However, I will add the following warning There are some things very engrained in all of us about what God is and what religion is, things that have been there since before we could read. We pick up the Qur'an with these prejudices, and we have to fight these prejudices hard and try to stick to what is in the Book and leave out what is simply not there. To do this, we have to ask hard questions that we thought we had all figured out, but we forgot to think about things like the way language develops and the direction of causality. These are unanswered questions that we like to hide under the rug because they are difficult to find answers to, if not impossible, because we simply don't have unbiased evidence of how exactly the semitic languages were constructed prior to the semitic Prophets. Just look at how the Qur'an has influenced the Arabic language. Many phrases that people use in totally non-religious contexts come directly from the Qur'an (for example, insha'llah). Is it such a huge jump in logic to say that grammatic constructs could have been formed the same way?
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Thank you claurianta
i read it quickly and I do have a lot to say but please bear with me as I have to respond to danish second comment which I haven't read yet to be honest
cheers
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Salaam Ahmed,
Salam Danish
Sorry for the delay mate, been busy and sick at the same time
- clearly it says the Quran was revealed on Mohammad, not a bunch of humans
The "bunch of humans" thingy has been elaborated in my last post.
bro, please tell me why they have hidden their identities? The ones who wote the gospels never did that neither any author of any book
also this means those authors are clear cut liars as well because they lied in the Quran and they said it is the words of Allah not their words inspired by Allah, many flaws can be discovered easily if we adapt your concept of these wise men who wrote the Quran
As far as "the Quran was revealed on Mohammad" by GOD goes, here's my 2p
Firstly, as I understand it, the word ?GOD? is purely a mystical/philosophical one for obvious reasons.
Dure but the mystery of this word will be defeated by the belief that I mentioned in my previous comment to you, i.e. the Belief in God will make the word God clear as light ?for the believers?
So if the word is a mystery to anyone, I have to say that this person never achieved the belief in God yet
Secondly, a ?revelation? is something revealing or make known to, for what is embedded in ones' mind by inspiration, thoughts, meditation, reflection and reasoning, by virtue of event/circumstance that one witnesses every moment of ones' life.
sorry? What was that bro
the Quran is simply the true words of guidance from our God to us, how He put it together, this is up to Him, I don?t really need the above explanation by you as it is damn confusing bro
Every human (including the blind), at various levels, have certain instincts born within them that reflect their lives in which they live. There?s no possible way to evaluate these perceptions to have been directed and reputed by GOD, but by evaluating, reasoning and weighing in, in what is profoundly measured by reality/nature in that moment of time and space by which we speak about as being ?inspired or revealed by GOD?.
sorry bro that is very confusing and is not for the average humans whom Allah send the guidance to, the question is simple bro
is it the true guidance from Allah as it says about itself or not?
If you say not, then I guess you have failed one important requirement in the Quran which is to believe in it as the words of Allah not the words of humans
- clealy it says no humans can write something like it
Similar books have been written throughout history of mankind and the Quran itself mentions it as well. One just doesn't add up and look at it realistically, simply because in which they have been taught and bought up.
fine bro, my argument still stays that no human claimed to have written the Quran but only Allah did so, and if it is some sort of humans inspiration then over 1400 years who must have seen it changing according to more wise men who came into existence unless you want to tell me that the wise men were 1400 years ago and no more of them now?
- it clearly warned mohammad of adding or modifing its content
Explained in previous post. Besides, just how does one know what has been added/modified or not and with what mindset can you state with affirmation, and not just because the verse says so?
if the Quran is the same for hundreds of years, and it says about itself that it will be protected by Allah, don?t you believe Allah when He said as such in His Quran?
I see what is confusing you is something in the Arabic Balagha called Iltifat, this is important to understand before you just judge it by sura 1 where it is talking from the believers perspective
The "believers perspective", exactly my point and as elaborated above in your first point.
then how about the zillions of verses that were spoken from Allah perspective, or you want to turn a blind eye on those and only take the ones that Allah authored it as from the believers perspective?
...and sura one is nothing but a lesson from Allah to teach us how to praise Him and ask for forgivness, that is whay we read it in ever salat and that is why the Bismellah is a verse in there
Does the Quran mention saying that one must recite sura 1 in every raka in salaat?
no it does not, but according to the history records about mohammad, the record seems reliable, and qualified by the Quran so I will follow that great teacher in it and I guess I can?t be questioned by God for doing as such rather rewarded, or do you think I will be questioned for that?
Besides, what is salaat as understood by you (as a ritual prayer) is totally out of question for me.
Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it
So where do we stand now and what has become of what you call "GOD's Words"?
of course the Quran is 500% Allah exact words, even 9128-129 are his words
peace be with you
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Peace,
Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it-where does it say that the prophet should explain it to us? Could you please find the ayah?
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Peace,
Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it-where does it say that the prophet should explain it to us? Could you please find the ayah?
sure bro, give me a sec
peace
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Peace,
Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it-where does it say that the prophet should explain it to us? Could you please find the ayah?
Peace ichephren
Mohammad mission was not only to deliver the Quran, but to explain/make clear to us "those things in which we differ", Salat is a perfect example bro
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
(64)
-> We can read above that the prophet mission was not just to deliver the Quran but to explain ? ? things that we may differ, a very strong argument against the hadith rejectors, you see it is very easy to use the Quran to qualify any hadith because we know that the prophet should deliver it then use it to guide humanity and explain to them things that they may differ. It is like the prophet said the verses of the Quran again in different ways for further explanation because the prophet was only talking by the Quran.
The bottom line is, because we have the preserved Quran we can use it easy to Qualify the hadith, ie, THE QURAN QUALIFIES THE HADITH and because the salat were mentioned numerous times in the Quran as well its reward then all the hadiths talking about salat is worth checking out according to 1664
Peace
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Peace,
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.
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This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.
Barring any problems with the translation, this is exactly the same interpretation I had when I first saw this ayat, and it still is. The Qur'an is what should unite us.
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Peace,
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.
Peace mate
you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta
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Peace,
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.
peace sis
the Quran is not just about Jesus, in fact the message of Jesus is not for the belivers it is more for the christians
if you agree that humans don't know how we perform salat, i.e. confused about it, i.e. we differ about it, then 1664 futs perfectly
remember this sister, the Ta in LeTobain, refers to the prophet not to the Quran, if it was meant to be the Quran then IT HAS TO BE A Ya and the word becomes LeYobain, no one can refute this sister because it is part of the langugae basics
now why he knows salat better than us?, I guess because he was a prophet who was appointed by Allah
and finally please let me know what is your understanding to this
?And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from that, And fear Allah; undoubtedly, the torment of Allah is severe?
(The Quran ; 597)thanks
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you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta
Though people are really going to scream at me for this one, I do have a comment to make on this point. The first copies of the Qur'an (such as the Tashkent copy) did not include the naqt diacritical marks nor the tashkeel short vowel markers. In fact, the naqt and tashkeel were not invented until after the first written Qur'ans were already some decades old (see for example http//answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm#compare under "Diacritical Differences")
Therefore, as far as the original written copies are concerned, Letobain and Leyobain LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME (the difference between the t and the y being the two naqt points on top of the letter for t, and below the letter for y). Here, therefore, human error in writing in the naqt is very possible (though of course not certain), especially in a case like this where there is ambiguity as to which of the two it could be.
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Peace,
you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta
I did not miss the point. I read clearly that it was directed at Muhammad. However, the ayah says that, "And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe." The ayah was directed to Muhammad b/c of his position as the communicator of the message. He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ. The ayah could have said that the quran explains, but I think that is the same as saying that it is for the messenger to explain since his explanation IS the message.
?And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from that, And fear Allah; undoubtedly, the torment of Allah is severe?(The Quran ; 597)
This ayah is talking stricly about the disbursement of spoils of war, so it has nothing to do with Muhammad telling us how to pray. It is within the sura called "the spoils of war" and its division. So, whatever the prophet give us as spoils of war, we should take it. Do not construe this to be a larger all consuming rule that whatever Muhammad does we should do since his role as a messenger is clearly confined to the message. You did not answer the question of where he would be getting this special guidance from if he did have more guidance than was in the Quran.
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Peace,
Peace
you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta
I did not miss the point. I read clearly that it was directed at Muhammad. However, the ayah says that, "And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe." The ayah was directed to Muhammad b/c of his position as the communicator of the message. He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ.
sis, you said the following"He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ."
and that is exactly what I'm saying, I don't underastand how you repeate it then say it is someting else?
The ayah could have said that the quran explains,
but it didn't
but I think that is the same as saying that it is for the messenger to explain since his explanation IS the message.
yeh it means to elaborate on the message, the message mentioned Salat a lot and the prophet elaborated on it a lot, and that is just one thing the prophet explained to us
?And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from that, And fear Allah; undoubtedly, the torment of Allah is severe?(The Quran ; 597)
This ayah is talking stricly about the disbursement of spoils of war,
Does the verse say so?, absolutely not, unless you are referring to the hadith?
so it has nothing to do with Muhammad telling us how to pray.
Excuse me I didn't say it is about the Salat explicitly, the salat is one thing from the things the Mohammad "Atana Biha", i.e. Mohammad told us about it, i.e. Mohammad explained it in his own words, i.e. Mohammad elaborated on it, even he can make things haram as the verse said
It is within the sura called "the spoils of war" and its division.
excuse me sister, there is no suras names that was revealed with the Quran
So, whatever the prophet give us as spoils of war,we should take it.
now you are adding your own words to the Quran verse, I never read "as spoils of war" in the arabic verse,
Do not construe this to be a larger all consuming rule that whatever Muhammad does we should do since his role as a messenger is clearly confined to the message.
did I say that the verse say whatever Mohammad does?, absolutely not, the verse clearly says whatever Mohammad told you to do then do it and whatever he prohibited, we should stop it
NO WARS MENTIONED
You did not answer the question of where he would be getting this special guidance from if he did have more guidance than was in the Quran.
The Quran told us clearly that Mohammad was Dallan and Allah hadah, i.e. He was guided by Allah to prepare him for his role as a prophet
now there is something I would like to ask you, your refute for LeTobain was a typo, i.e. the dots should be under not above, while I expected more than that as a refute, it seems your refute will affect the whole Quran, i.e. how you know that every Ta, Ba, Tha and Ya is right?
also do you believe Allah when He told us in the Quran that He will preserve it?