Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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The conscience is a part of everyone...but some choose to ignore it.
Oh right, thus the interpretations not based on 'conscience' are not really indicative of the person?
Thank you for all the personal comments, I am really feeling the 'love', 'openmindedness' and 'tolerance' from you -* -*
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You know, enquirer, if the book's not clear to you... doesn't mean it's not clear. ;D
If you interpret the verses to be inhumane, when I made no comment after posting the verses (no footnotes/no interpretations from me), then perhaps you need to look deep into yourself, and you might just find the answer.
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Peace savage carrot and zenje.
savage carrot;everybodies naturally state is to be 'moral',but we have the free-will to ignore this state..hence people in the world who are immoral in behaviour and thought. From what i read,some of the posters interpretations are immoral,as for whether they are immoral in their general overall behaviour, well i dont know enough about them...
As for you feeling the love...Well sometimes you have to use tough love,or be cruel to be kind... And you of all people should read some of your own sarcastic,irrelevant,sectarian posts.
Zenje;The verses are inhumane sometimes,when taken literally. (hence all the re-interpretations and modifications of verses on the forum,along with the symbolic interpretations.).And to be frank i think you are just hiding behind this book you consider to be perfect... Why dont you take responsibility for what you quote...or did allah say it?
As for clear book,well is the forum full of clear,coherent,consistent,verifiable interpretations of salat,god,hajj,masjid-ul-haram,hand-chopping,lashes,slave women,etc...?
Yes you can remind yourself of some great morals (especially if the quran is taken relatively,symbolically,mystically and with your OWN conscience/experiences/input.) with the quran,but as for it being all clear,literally speaking,well if people are honest,thats the last thing it is at times.
Peace all. Ps;i look within myself very frequently,because thats where the answers are...not just in a book -
Peace zenje. Dont you mean you believe its allahs words? And also take responsibility,because how do you know allah meant the words you quoted,as you quoted them in an english translation? If a sunni in defence of hadith quotes 'follow god and follow the messenger', he can say this is how allah meant it,and they are allahs words? Be real...its your opinion. ) Im sure you would say,dont attribute to allah what you dont really know?
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Peace enquirer,
Dont you mean you believe its allahs words?
I mean exactly what I said... I know it's the God's words.If a sunni in defence of hadith quotes 'follow god and follow the messenger', he can say this is how allah meant it,and they are allahs words?
No problem, he can believe what he wants, and I will not fight him for it.Be real...its your opinion.
Again, I just quoted some verse without explanation, you can take the original arabic, you can choose to read Yusuf Ali's translation, you can decide to translate it yourself and interpret it as you will, no problem. The words of quran are not mine, neither are they my "opinion". That's real.Im sure you would say,dont attribute to allah what you dont really know?
Yes I would. But if there's any confusion, please refer to my first sentence in this post.Thanks. )
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Peace zenje,bmbmm and all. Even if the quran is clear and gods words(which i dont necessarily agree with.) how come after 1400 years we still dont know half of it,and we are still discussing salat,hajj,slaves etc.. How come the 'quran only' community is not exactly at the forefront of world affairs or making great contributions to science and civilisation? How long has 'quran only' existed? Did all the previous generations get it wrong? Give me a few examples of success from the 'quran only' community? whats the use of gods words if nobody properly understands it,or no peace/success is achieved through it? Im sure many sincere people have tried to interpret the quran and still come up with little consensus....A book that we can all be divided with. )
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savage carrot;everybodies naturally state is to be 'moral',but we have the free-will to ignore this state..hence people in the world who are immoral in behaviour and thought. From what i read,some of the posters interpretations are immoral,as for whether they are immoral in their general overall behaviour, well i dont know enough about them...
If you can judge someone's interpretation by stating it's inhumane then by association you are judging the person's mindset/mind at the time as well, which is a part of them as people. There is no twisting away from this fact. It's obvious. This goes for all the choice statements about people that you have peppered your posts with.
As for you feeling the love...Well sometimes you have to use tough love,or be cruel to be kind... And you of all people should read some of your own sarcastic,irrelevant,sectarian posts.
Tough love? Cruel to be kind? Maybe you should change the labels you keep tacking in your posts to reflect that 'nuance'. Sarcasm is better than holier than thou preaching, and irrelevant are your personal comments. Sectarian? Whoo boy, you really caught me out here!
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Peace savage carrot. So we cant comment on behaviour we find immoral? Sarcasm is better than preaching is it?(ill disregard the holier than thou comment,as doesnt a lot of the 'quran only' methodology adopt a superiour attitude to sunni methodology or anyone else'?) Does your quran confirm that? Or is that from your own mind?
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So we cant comment on behaviour we find immoral?
Immaturity is immoral? Low intellectual 'output' is immoral? Do tell.
Sarcasm is better than preaching is it?(ill disregard the holier than thou comment,as doesnt a lot of the 'quran only' methodology adopt a superiour attitude to sunni methodology or anyone else'?)
Sure, preaching does get boring like your posts do. Remind me of the other stuff you wrote when I go to a 'sunni' site and start preaching, or like you when I start preaching the quran is a man's interpretation of reality in a forum which espouses God alone through the quran which they deem God's words.
Does your quran confirm that? Or is that from your own mind?
You seem obsessed with the quran, and those that follow it. Explains a lot.
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Peace zenje,bmbmm and all. Even if the quran is clear and gods words(which i dont necessarily agree with.) how come after 1400 years we still dont know half of it,and we are still discussing salat,hajj,slaves etc..
Is that the book's fault?How come the 'quran only' community is not exactly at the forefront of world affairs or making great contributions to science and civilisation?
Is that the goal?How long has 'quran only' existed?
From the beginning.Did all the previous generations get it wrong?
Does it matter? Do we answer for previous generations? Done is what they did.Give me a few examples of success from the 'quran only' community?
What's success? Wealth? Numbers?whats the use of gods words if nobody properly understands it,or no peace/success is achieved through it?
If people don't follow it, how will anything be achieved through it?Im sure many sincere people have tried to interpret the quran and still come up with little consensus....
Are you really sure? Or is this conjecture? You know what's in other people's hearts and minds now, do you?Peace
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Peace savage-carrot,
Sc-That's why one shouldn't jump to conclusions and claim it's so difficult and unclear,
Not The fundamentals but the allegorical verses and there are lots of them.
Sc-if one doesn't have all or most of the pieces of the 'puzzle' with them. Here is how I see it, some like to talk about the motivations of say, Mr. Darcy without reading the whole of Pride and Prejudice.
That is the problem? when it come to picking up the pieces of the puzzle and painting a picture, we all do it in our own way, according to our own understand and knowledge, hence their will always be a difference of opinion and we have to acknowledge and respect that.
Sc-Of course a sura can be understood, and so can a simple verse. For one, the issue was why is it in different places and second the issue now is what about a person who only has time to read one sura, tho poor sod won't get the chance to understand! I SAY, TAKE THE TIME, READ THE WHOLE BOOK, PUT IT TOGETHER WITH REASON AND EXPERIENCE OF LIFE ALONG WITH INSPIRATION
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Sis dear, you love to assume ? Your analysis is, that who so ever is skeptical about the book, HE HAS ONLY READ ONE SURA AND THAT POOR SOD HAS NEVER USED REASONING AND EXPERIENCE OF HIS LIFE ALONG WITH THE INSPIRATION TO UNDERSTAND THE BOOK? This dear sis is a typical statement made by all THE TRUE BELIEVERS D, the reality is the other way round, I have seen that the majority of the people who claim the book to be perfect, are those who have never bothered to read the book at all, or they read it in Arabic only.Sc-The ones who judge and/or try to understand it hastily or with bias will not understand and things will be muddy.
Logical.
Sc-Yes, we read the whole book with the intent to learn.
Agreed, and according to my understanding there is nothing else to learn from the book except the code of ethics.
Sc-Once dubious motivations creep in along with arrogance like 'I know better than this! This is ancient history far below my intellectual level'...thats when things start messing up.
Absolutely right but on the opposite side when the desires/emotions creep in, along with the blind belief! This is a perfect book, that?s when things start messing up too.
Sc-It's the intent and will to learn, some things will not get clearer right away,
Right, but when things get clear, they change your old understandings/concepts and replace them with the new ones, and it?s a constant never ending process.
Sc- it may take time, patience and sincerety.
That the way it is sis ).
God bless you.
Peace. -
Peace agent,
Not The fundamentals but the allegorical verses and there are lots of them.
It's a long hard road I agree, the good news is the fundamentals are all one really needs. There are some who definitely have good understandings of the 'allegorical' verses imo, I suppose it's interest as well, some just like to research and come up with stuff that is not in contradiction with what the text says.
That is the problem? when it come to picking up the pieces of the puzzle and painting a picture, we all do it in our own way, according to our own understand and knowledge, hence their will always be a difference of opinion and we have to acknowledge and respect that.
Yes, and when someone wants to 'discuss' their understanding it's all good.
Sis dear, you love to assume ? Your analysis is, that who so ever is skeptical about the book, HE HAS ONLY READ ONE SURA AND THAT POOR SOD HAS NEVER USED REASONING AND EXPERIENCE OF HIS LIFE ALONG WITH THE INSPIRATION TO UNDERSTAND THE BOOK? This dear sis is a typical statement made by all THE TRUE BELIEVERS , the reality is the other way round, I have seen that the majority of the people who claim the book to be perfect, are those who have never bothered to read the book at all, or they read it in Arabic only.
Bro dear, it's what you wrote The majority of people in Pakistan have nothing to do with 'our' discussion. I know how they are, I'm from Pakistan as well. This is between two people who have both read the book and have our respective views. I hope I'm not 'assuming' here about you having read the book?
Agreed, and according to my understanding there is nothing else to learn from the book except the code of ethics.
That's fine of course.
Absolutely right but on the opposite side when the desires/emotions creep in, along with the blind belief! This is a perfect book, that?s when things start messing up too.
All I ask is to bring the 'why it isn't' out into the open so that we call can learn. It's not enough to call something imperfect and not bring the evidence to be discussed?
Right, but when things get clear, they change your old understandings/concepts and replace them with the new ones, and it?s a constant never ending process.
Indeed.
That the way it is sis
Of course
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Peace all,
the quran is not close, the verb of god continue to write the evolution of humanity. All muslims can contribute to look for the truth taking in consideration their experience of life.
It's difficult to etablish an islamic society without solid source. When we look the occidental society, we can see that the remed is in the quran.
We must consult us to guive at the quran the veritable function of guide of humanity.
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peace zenje and savage carrot.
Savage carroti suggest you dont get obsessed with trying to be something you are not,you seem to be over-reaching yourself. You really think i will fall for your baits? Sometimes deliberate immaturity and not using ones intelligence could be deemed as immoral...If you search inside yourself you will know whether this applies to you or not,i dont know you well enough to make a full judgement.You keep reading into my posts what you want to and trying to know the real me,it wont necessarily get you anywhere,except illusions...This is net chat my sister,not guessing games...
Im not judging you,i am making some comments on your posts...Do you really think you are a good advert for quranic morality,and are getting the quranic message across well?ZenjeNot the books fault,but those who believe its perfect.
Is not the goal of quran to redeem society and man?
where is the Proof of 'quran only' from the begining?
Done is what they did,but can you tell me what they or muhammed did?
Success in helping mankind morally and intellectually,has this been done?
Does nobody follow the quran properly in order for us to see an example of moral success?
Come on,...on this forum give me a list of the topics that have consensus? So any people that have tried to read quran and get consensus,but failed to get consensus,are insincere? Is that your criterion or allahs? Do you know whats in their hearts? Do you love your book/opinions/so called allahs words more than humanities goodness? Does your god love people?(applies to others on this 'sectarian agenda'.)
Peace all. -
Peace enquirer,
ZenjeNot the books fault,but those who believe its perfect.
Now that's definitely your opinion... and you know what?.. you're entitled to it! ;DIs not the goal of quran to redeem society and man?
What happened to "forefront of world affairs" ??? Man, you really flip around don't you?where is the Proof of 'quran only' from the begining?
In quran, but ofcourse that doesn't matter to you, so why ask?Done is what they did,but can you tell me what they or muhammed did?
See, previous answer.Success in helping mankind morally and intellectually,has this been done?
Is it really?... according to quran?Does nobody follow the quran properly in order for us to see an example of moral success?
And you've seen everyone, ofcourse!Come on,...on this forum give me a list of the topics that have consensus?
Must there be a consensus? I thought we were individuals, not borgs. insert 'resistance is futile' emoticon hereSo any people that have tried to read quran and get consensus,but failed to get consensus,are insincere?
If they "failed", and I'm not sure what you mean by that, yes.Do you know whats in their hearts?
Aww.. poor enquirer, trying to turn around his own inadequaces... I don't, but perhaps you do! ;DDo you love your book/opinions/so called allahs words more than humanities goodness?
Putting words in my mouth ain't gonna help you either.Does your god love people?(applies to others on this 'sectarian agenda'.)
It's a pity that when you've got nowhere to turn, you pull out the "sectarian" card. There there... it's gonna be alright, no need to get so emotional. Cheer up dude, life is short, don't you have mankind to help intellectually or something? -
Savage carroti suggest you dont get obsessed with trying to be something you are not,you seem to be over-reaching yourself. You really think i will fall for your baits?
Eh? Translation please?
Sometimes deliberate immaturity and not using ones intelligence could be deemed as immoral...
Lol.
If you search inside yourself you will know whether this applies to you or not,i dont know you well enough to make a full judgement.
Ah, so partial judgements were all well and good. No matter.
You keep reading into my posts what you want to and trying to know the real me,it wont necessarily get you anywhere,except illusions...
You mean you hide your self while posting so nobody can see the real you?
This is net chat my sister,not guessing games...
"net chat"? Which era are you from again? D
Im not judging you,i am making some comments on your posts
Really? It's quite amazing then that what you wrote proved otherwise, but it's okay...I can write 'enquirer has "low intellectual output", but it's got nothing to do with his intellect really, it's just hiding in a safe place where it's free from the cruel world.'
Do you really think you are a good advert for quranic morality,and are getting the quranic message across well?
Oh no! It's that old line again, when all else fails. Get some new ones.
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Peace zenje and savage carrot.
Savage carrot; You basically said nothing in your post.
Zenje; I am a very happy man my friend,im breaking free from the web of illusions... I see you avoided or couldnt answer the last two questions and resorted to immature attempts at humour. Your response to the question of whether people are insincere if they try but fail to get a consensus from the quran,which you answered yes they are insincere,shows the potential for idolisation of quran and inhumanity...Which im glad the rest of the forum is now aware of... And i suggest you think about what role peoples happiness(even those from outside your superior/arbitrary group.) plays in your religious interpretations/dogmas.( justified from allah,of course. .)
Peace all. -
You basically said nothing in your post.
You hurt me deeply -* -*