Why no record of prophets in europe,australasia and america?
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This is my understanding and I know its going to make certain people very angry
Why would your understanding make anyone angry? I respect your right to your understanding.
Qur'an fundamental part which is the basis of our faith is very clear and simple to understand. The problem here is people are trying to change that simple fundamental verses by giving their own interpreation of allegorical verses. The Qur'an clearly tell us that this message was send as a revelation to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and there are plenty of clear verses in Qur'an to verify. The other claim that Qur'an is centuries old is again very wrong concept getting promoted. Qur'an does say that Allah send all the Prophets with same message does not mean that they come up with the Qur'an. The simple message which all the Prophets brought was to Follow and Worship One God this was the main message which is consistant. The previous messages are replaced by Qur'an but the message is the same which was given to Prophet Abraham.
I'm sorry KGB, but I can't agree as there is no proof for
- al-quraan being descended for the first time to a man named muhammad.
- that al-quraan makes a difference betweeen 'literal' and 'allegorical' verses.
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KGB The prove is in Qur'an. The simple clear message can't be mataphor. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) can't be a metaphor. The clear verses which says that Qur'an is Allah revelations to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) can't be a metaphor.
I see how you're looking at things. My understanding was like yours till I read verses like 3/84 which speaks of 'revelation' (inzaal) as something which is 'alaina' (on us). Further, 6/114 speaks of al-kitaab mufassal (al-quraan itself) as being inzaal 'ilaikum' (to you in plural). Revelation isn't about the first time al-quraan came down to whatever his name was. It's about us achieving pointers from Allah NOW. See 42/51 for evidence of this.
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MQuran
384 the message is revealed to us through Prophet Muhammad (SAW) just like the message was revealed to previous nations through their Prophets Abraham, Ishmael, Musa, Isa.
6114 you is not us. That "you" is referenced to Prophet Muhammd. Read 6112 -6113 - 6114 together which makes it clear.
4251 are you getting direction revelations from Allah?
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KGB384 the message is revealed to us through Prophet Muhammad (SAW) just like the message was revealed to previous nations through their Prophets Abraham, Ishmael, Musa, Isa.
If that were the case, why are we told to say 'on us' (alaina) when it wasn't on us? Surely we're not told to lie by Allah?
6114 you is not us. That "you" is referenced to Prophet Muhammd. Read 6112 -6113 - 6114 together which makes it clear.
If that were the case, it would be 'ka' which is in singular and not 'kum' which is in plural.
4251 are you getting direction revelations from Allah?
That's within the bounds of my personal experience. What we need to look at here is the linguistics of it. Was Allah addressing messengers here? If so, why - since he did use 'ya ayuhan nabi' like in 66/1- did He not say so here? 42/51 is clarifying modes of revelation and no human being is excluded from it.
As ever, I respect your disagreement. Thanks for a meaningful discussion.
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MQuran
I will leave the Arabic grammer part for the people who had the knowledge of language. I don't know much Arabic and am certainly not a person to explain the grammer.
6111 Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's plan. But most of them ignore (the truth).
6112 Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it so leave them and their inventions alone.
6113 To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the hereafter let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.
6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
The reference clearly here is Prophet Muhammad (SAW) which is very clear to me after reading this message. You is clear reference to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) not us.
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WOW you two are ruthless!
LOLKGB gazak Allah kheir for posting up 384
My humble opinion is that the 'us' referred to in that aya means all mankind... for the believers this message (the quran) is news of glad tidings and for non-believers it is a warning. That still doesn't prove that the Prophet Mohamed was not the deliverer or MESSENGER of that message.
This whole 'quran is all one big allegory' is very confusing and has way too many holes in it. Quran is made very CLEAR and understandable to all mankind. But the allegory business is making each aya extremely confusing and contradictory. Much like the sunni way of complicating God's Word so much that you HAVE to go to an Imam or Sheikh to get a fatwa because the religion is no longer accessible to anyone else. And that's the beauty of quran. As KGB stated, we can read any translated quran and with a good arabic dictionary and some igtihad all is made clear.
MQ, there are instances of God showing mistakes of the Prophet Mohamed (a human who errs and repents as we all do) 1774-75 is a good example to start off with. Again, to recap if the code-name "Mohamed" was just a set of characteristics we need to work for in order to reach a level with God or an experience, then there would be no room for depicting mistakes and errors. If I want to tell you the characteristics and qualities of a good student, I won't all of a sudden interject with mistakes and mishaps. If however, Mohamed is a real person, it makes complete sense to keep some mistakes as lessons and as proof that he was only human and God forgives. And lets not rain on Prophet Mohamed's parade too much... Prophet Moses killed someone and repented! He walked with Al-Khidr and argued with him all along not showing patience! I don't see any of these instances as metaphors for an archetypal personality that we must access in order to reach a higher realm and possibly gain status of prophethood...
But as you stated in a previous post MQ, we can certainly agree to disagree. There is no room for fighting, as these are all our humble opinions. Can anyone speak out of 100% certainty of what happened over 1500 years ago?? Or what will be our fate in our future eternal lives? There are however beginning points we all need to agree upon. As an arabic speaker I can tell you AYA definitely is Miracle every single time it is mentioned. The verses of the quran are Miracles that none can immitate! That is why we call ayat el quran verses but the true meaning is miracles. By the way this is not an Arabist thing. It is easier for arabic-speaking people to access meanings of words, that doesn't mean they are the ONLY ones who can.
PEACE
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OOHH Just thought of a great example.
Surat el Shuaraa (The Poets) repeats over and over how each featured prophet came to the people as a plain warner. And each people said how can we follow INSAN (man) like us! He eats like us and drinks like us, he can't be a messenger from God. Unless there is an allegorical meaning for insan, you're out of steam on this allegorical archetype business. I Invite you to read the sura and keep an open mind without trying to find a way to defend your point.
PEACE SALAM
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Peace all. Aside from historical/factual accuracy,does it really practically matter if we take the prophets as metaphors,'archetypes',or as real messengers?...The point is regardless of what they are/were,....follow them in practical righteous behaviour...Or am i missing something?
Peace all. -
Peace KGB. Well if people follow the different prophets' examples' of behaviour, then they do believe in them,dont they?...
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Peace Enquirer
Qur'an is the last message of Allah and it says no religion other than Islam is acceptable to Allah. We can follow Qur'an what Prophet Muhammad (SAW0 did during his life to achieve salvation.
What would be the fate of those who don't follow Islam? Don't know.
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Well Mquran
you are still going hard on that shit and want to watse my time further, man, i went to bed early because of your uselss discussion and just waked up feeling good, therefore bloody oath no way i will respond to your last comment, i have no time to watse bro, sorry
take care
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AByou are still going hard on that s*** and want to watse my time further, man, i went to bed early because of your uselss discussion and just waked up feeling good, therefore bloody oath no way i will respond to your last comment, i have no time to watse bro, sorry
Yeah whatever, AB. Salaam.
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KGBThe reference clearly here is Prophet Muhammad (SAW) which is very clear to me after reading this message. You is clear reference to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) not us.
KGB, can you see the underlined part in 6/114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
That underlined part is in plural.
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WOW you two are ruthless!
LOL
My humble opinion is that the 'us' referred to in that aya means all mankind... for the believers this message (the quran) is news of glad tidings and for non-believers it is a warning. That still doesn't prove that the Prophet Mohamed was not the deliverer or MESSENGER of that message.Ok, I'm not commenting on who recieved al-quraan for the first time. I'm just saying I don't know the chap's name for sure, sorry.
This whole 'quran is all one big allegory' is very confusing and has way too many holes in it. Quran is made very CLEAR and understandable to all mankind. But the allegory business is making each aya extremely confusing and contradictory. Much like the sunni way of complicating God's Word so much that you HAVE to go to an Imam or Sheikh to get a fatwa because the religion is no longer accessible to anyone else. And that's the beauty of quran. As KGB stated, we can read any translated quran and with a good arabic dictionary and some igtihad all is made clear.
Why is 'allegorical' opposite to 'clear and understandable'. There's no quranic basis for this syntax, soul2squeeze. Al-quraan uses phenomenological (things we find in reality) as concretised 'anchors' to explain itself. For example, it uses the word 'tasreef' for 'riih' or wind as well as for the ayaat of Allah. So in this way, we understand how the ayaat of Allah moves.
MQ, there are instances of God showing mistakes of the Prophet Mohamed (a human who errs and repents as we all do) 1774-75 is a good example to start off with.
17/73-75 is directed to the reader of al-quraan before, now and in the future.
Again, to recap if the code-name "Mohamed" was just a set of characteristics we need to work for in order to reach a level with God or an experience, then there would be no room for depicting mistakes and errors.
Once again, the name Muhammad isnt in those verse.
If I want to tell you the characteristics and qualities of a good student, I won't all of a sudden interject with mistakes and mishaps. If however, Mohamed is a real person, it makes complete sense to keep some mistakes as lessons and as proof that he was only human and God forgives. And lets not rain on Prophet Mohamed's parade too much... Prophet Moses killed someone and repented! He walked with Al-Khidr and argued with him all along not showing patience! I don't see any of these instances as metaphors for an archetypal personality that we must access in order to reach a higher realm and possibly gain status of prophethood...
Why not? Perhaps in making those mistakes, one could access the repentance required to reach those levels of being.
But as you stated in a previous post MQ, we can certainly agree to disagree. There is no room for fighting, as these are all our humble opinions. Can anyone speak out of 100% certainty of what happened over 1500 years ago?? Or what will be our fate in our future eternal lives? There are however beginning points we all need to agree upon. As an arabic speaker I can tell you AYA definitely is Miracle every single time it is mentioned. The verses of the quran are Miracles that none can immitate! That is why we call ayat el quran verses but the true meaning is miracles. By the way this is not an Arabist thing. It is easier for arabic-speaking people to access meanings of words, that doesn't mean they are the ONLY ones who can.
Ok.
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Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He Who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?And those to whom We
gave the Book know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so do not be among the doubters. Word for word translation from emuslim.com
The book which was revealed to you through Prophet Muhammed (SAW). Just like the previous scriptures.
Prophet Dawood (Zuboor)
Prophet Musa (Tauraat)
Prophet Isa (Injeel)
Prophet Muhammd (Qur'an)Allah did not send the revelations directly to people. The message is always send through a Prophet and Messanger.