Does al quran promote a religion? Not to me.
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its not me...its the definitions which u gave which say that! u cannot say words then walk back on them!
Walk back on what exactly? Please be specific.
but i havent heard of an study or observation by 'scientists' which has found god to be true! ofcourse, if u mean observation and reasoning rather than personally verifying (like i wont believe in god unless i see it), than yes there are signs for who have conviction! but those who do not have conviction, will never see these signs nor believe...they will always want 'concrete' proof of god!
So you're saying no "scientist" has ever came to God, from being an atheist/agnostic/whatever, as a result of his studies in science? Highly unlikely, and unverifiable. Abraham observed nature and came to the realisation of God, do with that what you want.
can u quanitify "shortly before"?
"shortly before" means any time period in which one would not become unclean from other activity, simple. it cant be quantified specifically, because it will be variable with one's activity/environment etc.
i was askin about quran!
same answer.
i went from 7 anti-clockwise circuits to...? could u elaborate that?
You asked me for an example of a religious act, I gave one, you started to explain part of the act, which I assume you did to attempt to base it in reality. At this, you failed. The point is, you acknowledged it didn't make sense / wasn't based in reality (see below).
yes i do not find anything to promote goin around it 7 times...but to go about it observin it once...yes...or do u consider the bayt of god not worthy of being observed?
the bayt of God is worthy of study, aren't we studying it right now? Anyways, dont assume what I think as bayt is what you think.
do v conclude according to ur definition of "religion" and "supernatural", as we have seen throughout this post, u do believe that quran promotes religion? -)
No. If you think you have concluded from my posts that I somehow showed I believe 'al quran' promotes religion then instead of making vague statements and dancing around the topic, please point out specifically how you concluded this.
A simple question...
Do you consider the process of observing/studying natural phenomena to find the truth is what "science" promotes? Yes or no?
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wakas wrote
Walk back on what exactly? Please be specific.wakas wrote
They were not my definitions, I just took them from the internet. I chose them because they seemed reasonable.u were asked for ur understanding of religion...not net definitions...but yes, i will keep in mind the future possibility of dissociations! -)
wakas wrote
So you're saying no "scientist" has ever came to God, from being an atheist/agnostic/whatever, as a result of his studies in science? Highly unlikely, and unverifiable.do u understand the difference between 'scientists' and 'no "scientist''? can u point out to the scientific study which has verified quran being from god?
can u point out anybody who verified quran's claim that christ was not killed? or that jesus healed the blind? do u believe by that?
wakas wrote
Abraham observed nature and came to the realisation of God, do with that what you want.could u read a little better? maybe thinking will follow! -) i already said observing the universe 1 can deduce god...but many people believe in god...v are talking about the text of the quran...do u not know people who cannot digest that god can do miracles? and they reduce everything to allegories? by the way what do u say about christ and muhammad? -)
wakas wrote
"shortly before" means any time period in which one would not become unclean from other activity, simple. it cant be quantified specifically, because it will be variable with one's activity/environment etc.56 O you who believe, if you rise to attend the contact-method, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles;...
does it say to wash and wipe when u approach the salat......or does it say to wash and wipe only when u think u are unclean and need to?
i am not interested in ur opinions...rather in what the quran says....do u agree by what is there? -)
wakas wrote
same answer.yes, so perhaps u now understand what i meant by wisdom general to all...and wisdom not so general...cool! -)
wakas wrote
You asked me for an example of a religious act, I gave one,ahan!
wakas wrote
you started to explain part of the act, which I assume you did to attempt to base it in reality. At this, you failed. The point is, you acknowledged it didn't make sense / wasn't based in reality (see below).do away with ur assumptions....i want my words and not ur assumptions! -)
at what i failed? like u urself point out...i agreed that i do not find agreement with the current custom of the majority...so why do u talk without understanding what the other person says? is it not better to ask for clarifications rather than just make empty claims based on assumptions? -)
wakas wrote
the bayt of God is worthy of study, aren't we studying it right now? Anyways, dont assume what I think as bayt is what you think.huh? i already said to "assume" bayt is a physical place...so whats with the caution? read better! and in anycase i am interested in bayt according to quran and not assumptions! -)
wakas wrote
No. If you think you have concluded from my posts that I somehow showed I believe 'al quran' promotes religion then instead of making vague statements and dancing around the topic, please point out specifically how you concluded this.lolz..chill...now i understand some people need to be talked to slowly! -) so here is what has transpired so far
wakas wrote
Of course, we will have to define what "religion" is first.yes....v will need to define 'religion' since u stated that according to u quran does not promote a religion....what according to u is 'religion'?
wakas wrote
religion a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power.
supernatural not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or materialso according to that which u provided religion pertains to supernatural power!
from the definition u provided of "supernatural" not existing in nature and cannot be explained by natural laws!
according to what u provided religion pertains to that which does not exist in nature or cannot be explained by natural laws!
now observe the nature around u and verify this in nature or explain by natural laws
2247 And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and Allah will by no means fail in His promise, and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number.
325 He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.
704 To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
and this
22 7. And because the Hour will come, there is no doubt thereof; and because Allah will raise those who are in the graves.
based on nature and observations is resurrection natural or supernatural? do u believe in resurrection?
wakas wrote
A simple question...Do you consider the process of observing/studying natural phenomena to find the truth is what "science" promotes? Yes or no?
first make a stand...a firm stand is that what "science" promotes according to u, or what u have taken off the net! -)
and yes..how do u understand 4153?
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I will skip over your habit of modifying your wording half way through our discussion and retorting with numerous new questions and try and answer the main points.
Its a pity you quote 56 leaving out "and if you were impure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned" or neglect in 443 where it says "...until you wash/bathe".
i already said observing the universe 1 can deduce god
This proves God's signs are in nature, thus a scientist/anyone can come to God through study of nature/universe/whatever.
And as for explaining the signs you referenced. Have you heard of the theory of relativity? And for resurrection, luckily 'the reading' gives us examples in nature for us to ponder upon. Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.
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Peace
is resurrection natural or supernatural? do u believe in resurrection?
I'd suggest you adhere to some advice and observe the signs .
The signs show why one should believe in the resurrection .
I believe the resurrection is as natural as life, as death, and confusion.
Joe
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i already said observing the universe 1 can deduce god
This proves God's signs are in nature, thus a scientist/anyone can come to God through study of nature/universe/whatever.
And as for explaining the signs you referenced. Have you heard of the theory of relativity? And for resurrection, luckily 'the reading' gives us examples in nature for us to ponder upon. Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.
That IS the crux of belief system, a natural "observable" truth. sun
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wakas wrote
I will skip over your habit of modifying your wording half way through our discussion and retorting with numerous new questions and try and answer the main points.do u need to be reminded everytime i want my words, not a yarn of words? -)
how do u "answer" the main points? by taking 6 words out of roughly 30 odd and "answering"? or skipping questions altogether? loz!
still, do u understand the meaning of something being "beyond somebody"? if i say "intelligence is beyond u does that mean u cannot recognize intelligence? yes u can, but its intricacies..its essence, is beyond u...right? -)
why are u trying to channel the discussion where u want to, rather than what v started off with? v are discussing whether the quran has text, a part of which can be termed as super-natural...not whether or not god is deducible, but whether science can explain god the way it can explain h2 + o = h2o!
wakas wrote
Its a pity you quote 56 leaving out "and if you were impure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned" or neglect in 443 where it says "...until you wash/bathe".why dont u read or recollect before u say something? here is what i already stated a few posts earlier
thegod
but can u esatblish the salat with merely clean hands and feet? would u go to school simply washing ur face and hands and wiping ur head and feet? no u would ensure a complete body wash if u have reasons to...so v would expect cleanliness to be a pre-condition before establishing salat!
but unless u take a complete bath wherein u wash the hands and wipe the feet by default, i would reckon u would still need to wash ur face and hands and wipe ur head and feet before salat in accordance with 56! also, 443 is of interest!
and that is exactly what 56 says
56 Believers, when you rise to pray wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbow, and wipe your heads and (wash) your feet to the ankle. If you are in a state of impurity, cleanse yourselves....
so v can gather this
when u approach salat wash and wipe, and if u be unclean make urself clean!a when u approach salat u are either clean, or u are unclean!
b u are clean, proceed to wash and wipe! go to d!
c u are unclean, then clean urself now u are clean! go to b!
d establish salat!
so according to u only if u think u are unclean, u should wash and wipe, which means if u think u are clean u should not wash and wipe!
according to quran if u are clean, u wash ur hands and faces, and wipe ur head and feet!
and yes, next time do read the quran and what i write carefully, so that v do not have repeats of the above example! -)
wakas wrote
This proves God's signs are in nature, thus a scientist/anyone can come to God through study of nature/universe/whatever.i am not talking just about god's signs...why are u shying away from responding to things in context rather than to just that which u think u are confortable with? give me the scientific study which has verified quran's claim that christ was not killed! v are discussing whether the quran has text which can be termed as super-natural...not just whether or not god is deducible! i hope u will not lose the essence of this discussion! -)
can u encompass the god the way god encompasses u? can u comprehend god the way god comprehends u?
wakas wrote
And as for explaining the signs you referenced. Have you heard of the theory of relativity?i would not have heard about the theory of relativity 300 years back...so? apart from the numbers, how do u explain the malaaikatu and the ruh? apply ur observational science and explain! or is it a mix of "theory of relativity" and allegories? -)
wakas wrote
And for resurrection, luckily 'the reading' gives us examples in nature for us to ponder upon.give me the examples from nature where u see resurrection, where somebody has died and decayed or been decimated, and been brought back to life!
wakas wrote
Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.i am talking about the text of quran and not just the bigger picture christ being able to heal the blind...do u believe by that or is it an allegory? u have skipped this before...u may choose to again!
u have very often referred to 4153, linking it with observable science do explain the verse! -)
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thenabi wrote
I'd suggest you adhere to some advice and observe the signs .read 10100
explain 4153
read 5122
thenabi wrote
The signs show why one should believe in the resurrection .I believe the resurrection is as natural as life, as death, and confusion.
what according to u is supernatural?
i see around me life and death, and i talk with people confused i do not see them being resurrected from the dead...do u? -)
peace! -)
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Peace,
i am talking about the text of quran and not just the bigger picture christ being able to heal the blind...do u believe by that or is it an allegory? u have skipped this before...u may choose to again!
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.
Quote
wakas wrote
Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.i see around me life and death, and i talk with people confused i do not see them being resurrected from the dead...do u? -)
Resurrection is proven now by Quantum physics, so yes, it is as normal now as life and death. People are still amazed by it, and even a bit scared. As now it is not possible to shove it away as myth. It will take time people will accept these theories, as they're so groundbreaking. Nobody expected this, but there is no hiding now...Everything can be found inside the laws of nature, only God can't be grasped as God is everything and beyond. Islam is not a religion, but a system, the best way to live on earth. God doesn't need service or worship. But we do need a guideline of truth to help us gain the higher levels, this is what the Quran is for. Religion is about superstition and dogma's. Islam is only truth and about truth, pure reality. So Islam i would call Teachings of Reality and Truth.
For the scientific approach to the resurrection, here is a small intro
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0Peace
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arnoldyasin wrote
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.that they are meant metaphorically is ur opinion...and it stays at that! -)
as for the evangelical opinion thing, there is no logic in relating apparent understanding of quran as distortion by others...even god is a concept preached by others...so tomorrow somebody will say god is a metaphor...not that some already dont!
the quran does not say that jesus healed of his own, rather 'bi idhni allah'...so is it god's capability or the text of the quran that u doubt? -)
arnoldyasin wrote
Resurrection is proven now by Quantum physics, so yes, it is as normal now as life and death. People are still amazed by it, and even a bit scared. As now it is not possible to shove it away as myth. It will take time people will accept these theories, as they're so groundbreaking. Nobody expected this, but there is no hiding now...Everything can be found inside the laws of nature, only God can't be grasped as God is everything and beyond. Islam is not a religion, but a system, the best way to live on earth. God doesn't need service or worship. But we do need a guideline of truth to help us gain the higher levels, this is what the Quran is for. Religion is about superstition and dogma's. Islam is only truth and about truth, pure reality. So Islam i would call Teachings of Reality and Truth.notwithstanding the scientific study u are talking about, would u have disbelieved by resurrection had quantum physics not proved it?
that religion is about superstitions is ur understanding...religion is commonly understood as pertaining to god or superntaural, quran deals with god so by that token it does promote religion! like u urself pointed out, god is beyond the laws of nature...so god is supernatural! -) so quran promotes religion by that token as well! -)
peace! -)
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Peace,
Quote
that they are meant metaphorically is ur opinion...and it stays at that! -)
as for the evangelical opinion thing, there is no logic in relating apparent understanding of quran as distortion by others...even god is a concept preached by others...so tomorrow somebody will say god is a metaphor...not that some already dont!
the quran does not say that jesus healed of his own, rather 'bi idhni allah'...so is it god's capability or the text of the quran that u doubt? -)
I used the Quran to prove my point. Where is the proof of your opinion?
I don't understand your second comment, as it doesn't really apply to my post. I used the Quran itself to explain what was meant with Jesus's story, and this corrects the Bible story, which was written by non-students of Jesus. And saying eventualy people say God is a metaphor is a nonsense argument that doesn't apply with my post. Don't deviade from the subject. And did i ever said God wasn't preached by others?
Isn't it also God capability that gave Jesus the power to show people the truth? This argument is again futile. To have the power and the wisdom to get people out of their illusion can only be done with God's permission and support. So for 'my' view you need as much 'bi idhni Allah' as for 'your' view.
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notwithstanding the scientific study u are talking about, would u have disbelieved by resurrection had quantum physics not proved it?
that religion is about superstitions is ur understanding...religion is commonly understood as pertaining to god or superntaural, quran deals with god so by that token it does promote religion! like u urself pointed out, god is beyond the laws of nature...so god is supernatural! -) so quran promotes religion by that token as well! -)
No i would have not doubted it, of course not, but you have to agree this gives a whole new side to it all. But the scientifical proof shows that everything can be discovered inside the laws of nature, and is not depended on promises alone. A promise of God is enough, but at the same time He asks us to look for the proofs in nature itself.
I study Theology, and i understand religions to the core. So it is my proffesional understanding. Religion is based on certain truths, and the rest they don't understand is filled in, plus when certain people can create a better position for themselves, they bring that into religion too. Religion is a man-made system, and only can give to a certain level satisfaction and answers, and can only bring societies to a certain level of development. And that God is un-graspable doesn't make Him 'supernatural', as He is 'proven'. I never needed proof. But the Designer cannot be denied in science. So He is not supernatural, just undescribable. We know He is there, but we cannot 'explain' Him. There we need the Quran for also. The Quran promotes not 'certain'truths, it gives only truths. It gives a system where humankind will not fail in. Give me one 'religion' that does this? The Quran contains nothing that is not to be found in the laws of nature. God doesn't deviade from His laws. He set them up with a reason, and He says He doesn't break them. That He can do what He wants as All-powerfull is a second. It is about what He says in the Quran. All Books that were revealed contained a system based on 100% truths and no gists. All religions on earth are based on a few truths with the rest filled in with guessing and superstition.
But this argument is time-waisting, as it matters about following the Quran, not how we 'name' the system that it gives. If you want to call it religion, that is fine by me. I use a different word for it. Still we follow the same Book.
Peace
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But this argument is time-waisting, as it matters about following the Quran, not how we 'name' the system that it gives. If you want to call it religion, that is fine by me. I use a different word for it. Still we follow the same Book.
yes.
People have different definitions of "religion." What one word means to me might mean something else to you.
No matter what we call them, the teachings of the Quran remain the same. -
arnoldyasin wrote
I used the Quran to prove my point. Where is the proof of your opinion?what proof? u only said "probably" this happened..that does not constitute as proof! infact the proof which u quote is found in the ahmadiyyat commentary...another coincidence...yes! -)
like when u said "djinns" mean something different everytime they are used...but does the word "insaan" mean something different everytime the word is used? such arguments are not called proofs from quran...they are merely opinions! -)
arnoldyasin wrote
I don't understand your second comment, as it doesn't really apply to my post. I used the Quran itself to explain what was meant with Jesus's story, and this corrects the Bible story, which was written by non-students of Jesus. And saying eventualy people say God is a metaphor is a nonsense argument that doesn't apply with my post. Don't deviade from the subject. And did i ever said God wasn't preached by others?u didnt explain anything according to quran...that "probably something happened" is not explanation! the old testament says moses was a prophet of god...so if u believe that moses is a prophet are u distorting the quran? or are u saying it under the influence of jews? or because the followers of old testament takes it literally u will interpret it allegorically and say moses is only an allegorical messenger? -)
u cannot call a thing a metaphor just because u want to just like somebody cannot call allah or rasool a metaphor just because they want to...read replies in the context! -)
arnoldyasin wrote
Isn't it also God capability that gave Jesus the power to show people the truth? This argument is again futile. To have the power and the wisdom to get people out of their illusion can only be done with God's permission and support. So for 'my' view you need as much 'bi idhni Allah' as for 'your' view.that he could cure the blind was an ayat from his lord which he came with read the verse again! i cannot make the blind see, but let me give an example
let us suppose u are spiritually blind...then what is the ayat with which i come to u? take another spiritually blind person and cure him? when u are urself spiritually blind how will u understand what has happened? will u consider the spiritually blind person to be blind? no infact u would consider him blind after his having been cured!
again let us suppose u are spiritually blind i come to u and there is a blind person so i heal the person and he can see...now whether u are spiritually blind or not u can see the person has regained sight! thats an ayat!
now if u can provide some understanding of the ayat with which he came then do so! -)
also, why do u not believe jesus could make the blind see..literally?...give me reason and not 'because it is a metaphor'..what is it that u limit the occurrence of such a possibility as an impossibility? would u believe it only when u see somebody literally cure the blind? the disbelievers by jesus did not even when they saw him do it! -)
5110 Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
what did they call evident magic? but those who disbelieved by his miracles have been in denial since! -)
arnoldyasin wrote
No i would have not doubted it, of course not, but you have to agree this gives a whole new side to it all. But the scientifical proof shows that everything can be discovered inside the laws of nature, and is not depended on promises alone. A promise of God is enough, but at the same time He asks us to look for the proofs in nature itself.so have u discovered everything in nature? disbelievers say there is no god because they cannot see it do u disbelieve by jesus having been able to literally cured for reason other than that u have not seen it happen nor science has confirmed that for u?...notice the similarity in reasoning?
arnoldyasin wrote
I study Theology, and i understand religions to the core. So it is my proffesional understanding. Religion is based on certain truths, and the rest they don't understand is filled in, plus when certain people can create a better position for themselves, they bring that into religion too. Religion is a man-made system, and only can give to a certain level satisfaction and answers, and can only bring societies to a certain level of development. And that God is un-graspable doesn't make Him 'supernatural', as He is 'proven'. I never needed proof. But the Designer cannot be denied in science. So He is not supernatural, just undescribable. We know He is there, but we cannot 'explain' Him. There we need the Quran for also. The Quran promotes not 'certain'truths, it gives only truths. It gives a system where humankind will not fail in. Give me one 'religion' that does this? The Quran contains nothing that is not to be found in the laws of nature. God doesn't deviade from His laws. He set them up with a reason, and He says He doesn't break them. That He can do what He wants as All-powerfull is a second. It is about what He says in the Quran. All Books that were revealed contained a system based on 100% truths and no gists. All religions on earth are based on a few truths with the rest filled in with guessing and superstition.u said god is beyond the natural laws....ask anybody what is that which is beyond natural laws...u will get "supernatural"!
arnoldyasin wrote
But this argument is time-waisting, as it matters about following the Quran, not how we 'name' the system that it gives. If you want to
call it religion, that is fine by me. I use a different word for it. Still we follow the same Book.yes to argue just to try to show our understandin as right is time-wastin...but it still helps in the sense that people know what kind of argumenst v put forth! -)
yes..the book is the same...that v follow it is a claim! -)
i guess thats it for some time atleast...perhaps i will check back some other time! -)
peace -)
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kgb wrote
Thank you TG.netime! -)
kgb wrote
This matter is settled now to me that Qur'an does promote religion.yes..if religion is understood as propogating god or supernatural, then quran does do that...god comprehends nature..nature does not comprehend god! -)
anyway...i am leaving! -)
