Quran and rationalism
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Peace
arnoldyasin, you are right, the word miracle is not so good, i think Sign is better.
Of course with technology we might be able to do a lot as we already do.
There is a verse in the Quran that says that if we unravell the secrets of this Quran, we might be able, by Allah's leave, to raise the dead.
But surely the Creator can provide a Sign without any explanation, it is His universe after all.
And I do not believe in those "biblical" days they had the technologies which we don't yet have.
And let us not forget that everything in us and around us, as believers is a sign from Allah.
The Unbelievers whose heart have hardened cannot or refuse to appreciate that.
Salam
Nabster -
Peace Nabster,
You stated
that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic,
OK, so the disbelievers are ones who saw miracles and called it magic.
yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
Possibly. Please point out who saw miracles and called them magic, and we'll get to the bottom of this.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Brother Tay
I refer you to the thread on the translation of Jinn, which got pretty heated up at one stage.
Salam
Nabster -
Peace,
622-25
And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
Then, their only excuse was to Say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.
And from them are those who listen to you; and We have made covers over their hearts to prevent them from understanding it, and a deafness in their ears; and if they see every sign they will not believe; even when they come to you they argue, those who reject Say "This is nothing but the tales from the past!"Peace,
Tay -
The Quran put it in an excellent way
And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say This is naught but the stories of the ancients.
Peace,
625 can be understood to mean those who actually take the metaphors in the verses to be literal.
Why?
Because if you argue that the events such as the splitting of the sea etc are real events then you make the metaphor which should be applicable in your own life nothing but an ancient story. The metaphor allows you to benefit from it, whereas insisting that it is an event gives you no benefit.
Note that the God does not shy away from citing metaphors. These are NOT ancient stories when treated as metaphors, but you are unwittingly holding to that very position that makes them nothing but ancient tales.
Regards.
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Peace,
I believe 625 cannot be used in this argument as it refers to believing in God which they say is a tale from the ancient. When we look at the context, this comes out. Also they reject the possibility of Revelation coming from God, which they refer to as tales from the past. The idea that God punishes the unrighteous, the resurrection, all those things fall under this verse. Which are also not denied by people who don't see miracles in the Quran, but misunderstood verses and meanings. Resurrection is to be found in the laws of nature, as seen in my article above. Revelation is also not denied.
623 Then, their only excuse was to Say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.
625 And from them are those who listen to you; and We have made covers over their hearts to prevent them from understanding it, and a deafness in their ears; and if they see every sign they will not believe; even when they come to you they argue, those who reject Say "This is nothing but the tales from the past!"
626 And they are deterring others from it, and keeping away themselves; but they will only destroy themselves, yet they do not notice. -
Peace Bro Arnodlyasin
Thank you for the link and I copied it because I found it very interesting. In fact there had been some research linking this energy field from humans to the Heart primarily and secondarily the Brain. Another experiment is the 100 monkeys experiment where you teach a skill to monkeys and then when 100 or so learn it, other monkeys will spontaneously use the skill with minimum (just showing it once) training.
Thank you again, this again confirms what Allah says in the Quran, that He will keep up showing us Signs until we know that it is the truth from Him.
God bless
Nabster -
Peace,
637 And they said "If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!" Say "God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know."
What does this mean? Does it mean that if God made the oceans disappear, people would say this is nothing David Copperfield couldn't do? Or does it mean that the signs are everywhere, and those who pay attention take notice, while those who reject see nothing but a mechanical reality?
The signs/miracles are everywhere.
This universe was created from nothing.
There is nowehere you can look without seeing a miracle.Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
When i look around me, and i see people live. I wonder, do they even realize they are alive? Don't they realize that it is a miracle that they are here? Why do they waist their time on nonsense? They just live, they are just...there, they are not alive or dead, they are in their own created Gehenna.
Most people on earth believe in a higher force, but still most waist their time on nonsense. Here in Holland, people have lost touch with reality. They don't care what people do as long it doesn't affect their lives. They live day by day, stand up every morning, and don't even see that the wonder they are here. They just get up, go to work. get home. Go on holidays, have a bit of fun. This is life for them. They don't want to see more. They are not going backwards but also not forward. Not dead or alive.
1417 How difficult it is to swallow the bitterness of self-imposed failure! A life unlived, a mere survival, neither living nor dead (2074, 8713). What a heavy retribution!
When i think about the miracle i'm here, that there was no need for God to create me, then i see how great the gift is of my life. So that is why i want to make every step i take in life as much a miracle, as the miracle that i'm here. These people demand the miracles, and even then would deny them. That is why i don't believe the Quran talks about non-natural miracles, they are mostly misunderstood verses. As the miracle they are denying is right here in front of them, it is in them, they themselves are the miracle! This is the miracle they deny, they ignore this, and take it all for granted. Life is the miracle, the precise design of the creation. These are the miracles they deny.
When i see it all, i proclaim
3827 And We did not create the heaven and the Earth, and everything between them, in vain. Such is the thinking of those who rejected. Therefore, woe to those who have rejected from the Fire.
23115 "Did you think that we created you in vain; that you were not to be returned to us?"
2118 Only those who fail to explore the realm of knowledge say, ?Why does Allah not speak unto us directly, nor is a miracle shown to us?? Even thus, as they now speak, spoke those who lived before their times. Their ways of thinking, their hearts and minds are all alike (untouched by the passage of time.) Indeed, We have made all the Signs clear for people who wish to attain conviction by exploring the intrinsic Truth in these Revelations and in the Universe. (2108, 2256, 1829, 4251, 763) 2119 Lo! We have sent you, O Prophet, with the Decisive Truth, a herald of glad tiding and a Warner. And you will not be held accountable for those who choose to stay behind the Insurmountable Barrier, and hence, dwell there.
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As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.Arnoldyasin, i agree with you more then 100%! In Slovenia, i see the same thing. People want miracles, yet when they come, they refuse to accept it, they want another and another and i think, well, maybe the people are dumb, but that's impossible because they kbnow how to build a bomb or fornicate and then there's only one solution to their attitude ignorance.
These people here are bored and also stuck in their life which they do not appreciate it. I saw both movies Saw and Saw II and believe me, those movies, even though a bit violent, are in many ways educational.
I'm also wasting time but not by choice, i don't want to waste my life or time, i wanna make something, i wanna do something good, i wanna be part of the solution, i wanna go to Hollywood and make movies which will get the message around, and if i make money with it, the money will go to those who need it, i don't need 300.000.000 USd on my bank account but if i had that much money, i'd be doing something with it to earn Paradise.
Allah has given me so much and he answers my prayers and i'm afraid that by being her ein Slovenia, i will not be a good muslim, that is, if i remain here because here i cannot do as many good deeds as i can in Los Angeles as a producer, director, writer, actor.
As salamu alaykum.
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Salamun 'alaikum brother JM,
When the unbelievers were requesting to Muhammad to produce this kind of miracles, God refused.
Why would he have let Moses use miracles, while refusing it to Muhammad ?See , , , , , , , , , , , ,
I believe the answer of your question can be found in these verses.
2106 When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
2107 Do you not recognize the fact that GOD possesses the kingship of the heavens and the earth; that you have none besides GOD as your Lord and Master?
2108 Do you wish to demand of your messenger what was demanded of Moses in the past? Anyone who chooses disbelief, instead of belief, has truly strayed off the right path.Peace Andy,
I do not think the word ?miracle? is a good translation of ayat in . I don?t grasp what could be the abrogation or the forgetting of a miracle. I think ?message? fits far better in this verse, and that God is explaining that the writings revealed to the earlier prophets are abrogated by the Quran.
I also think that is not directly related to .
IMHO, this verse gets better explained with the following oneThe people of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a scripture from the heavens. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said ?Let us see God plainly!?, so the lightning bolt took them for their wickedness. Then they took the calf after the clarity had come to them, and We pardoned them for this; We gave Moses a clear authority.
As you can see, the people of Moses were wrong to expect from God such miracles as to see God plainly.
That?s why I think that, although God could do such miracles, he does not, because a sound faith in God cannot be based on supernatural events.
You can note that the unbelievers are the only ones who demand miracles (in the sense of supernatural events) from God.Peace
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Peace
And yet The God did provide miracles, such as killing them and resurrecting them, or when they asked for (a sheep correction) an offering they would sacrifice and expect Him to send a fire from the sky to burn it, He said I provided you with that very miracle in the past, but you still came back to wrongdoings by killing messengers.
Nabster -
Peace,
Where does it say that, it says they had to kill their ego's. And they asked for a cow, which they had to find themselves, and they didn't aks Him for a fire to burn it. Sorry, but can you provide me the verses that say what you claim?
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Brother peace
I know the Quran almost by heart, I have been reading it almost everyday for the past twenty years. It is there, do a word search...
This story has nothing to do with the story of the golden calf -
Peace,
I also know the Quran almost by heart, but i rechecked
254 When Moses returned, he said to his people, ?O my people! You have hurt your own ?Selves? by worshiping the calf (7148-156). So, turn in repentance to your Maker and kill your ego (rebellious mentality 1253). This will be best for you in the Sight of your Maker.? Thereupon He turned toward you accepting your repentance. Verily, He is the Acceptor of repentance, the Merciful.
256 Then We revived you(the Jewish people), and raised you from a dead (to a living nation) so that you might show gratitude.
And there is also no sheep-miracle story in the Quran, so i think you maybe confused it with a hadith-story. I don't recall the story you talk about. These are the only occurences of sheep int he Quran
6146 And for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
Chapter 20
2018 He said "It is my staff, I lean on it, and I guide my sheep with it, and I have other uses in it."Chapter 21
2178 And David and Solomon, when they gave judgment in the case of the crop that was damaged by the sheep of the people, and We were witness to their judgment. -
Bro arnoldyasin
Peace
You might be right, it might have been a foot-note referring to a verse in tafseer. It will take me some time to check for the wording of the verse in question. Or maybe I am confusing it with the strory of Abel and Cain...
God bless
Only the almighty does not err and I ask His forgiveness for my memory weaknesses -
Salaam brother JM,
Salamun 'alaikum brother JM,
I believe the answer of your question can be found in these verses.
2106 When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
2107 Do you not recognize the fact that GOD possesses the kingship of the heavens and the earth; that you have none besides GOD as your Lord and Master?
2108 Do you wish to demand of your messenger what was demanded of Moses in the past? Anyone who chooses disbelief, instead of belief, has truly strayed off the right path.Peace Andy,
I do not think the word ?miracle? is a good translation of ayat in . I don?t grasp what could be the abrogation or the forgetting of a miracle. I think ?message? fits far better in this verse, and that God is explaining that the writings revealed to the earlier prophets are abrogated by the Quran.
I also think that is not directly related to .
Could you tell a bit why you think the translation is not good? Could you also tell your understanding for 2106-108 because for me they are directly related.
IMHO, this verse gets better explained with the following one
The people of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a scripture from the heavens. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said ?Let us see God plainly!?, so the lightning bolt took them for their wickedness. Then they took the calf after the clarity had come to them, and We pardoned them for this; We gave Moses a clear authority.
As you can see, the people of Moses were wrong to expect from God such miracles as to see God plainly.
That?s why I think that, although God could do such miracles, he does not, because a sound faith in God cannot be based on supernatural events.
You can note that the unbelievers are the only ones who demand miracles (in the sense of supernatural events) from God.The attitude of people of Moses is not peculiar to them. Sunni and shia also have the same attitude when it comes to the issue "Quran Alone" (at least in my experience). For example if you bring 6114 to them.
They actually have no reason to reject it. They know that verse 6114 is written in quran which is miracle. So at this point we can say that they have seen the miracle and are asked to accept this miracle as miracle (which means accept 6114). However, as we know, those sunni and shia cannot appreciate this miracle. They reject and for this rejection they resort to so many excuses as if they said "Let us see God plainly". That is how I understand the verse and link them to my every day life.
Btw, do some of you guys not believe quran is miracle and divine?
Wassalam,
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Bro arnoldyasin
Peace
I found the ayat I was referring to, it is 3183. And the translation of free-minds is wrong.
Nabster -
It refers clearly to an offering (not a sheep) that will be devoured by fire.