Quran and rationalism
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There are currently disputes between some members of the forum because of different hermeneutical approaches.
To take an example, if, in the Quran, we read that a stick can move like a snake, there will be 2 reactions
- Some of us will consider it is not physically possible (against physical laws), and will consider it metaphoric
- Some of us will consider that, if God has told so, then it has to be physically possible, even though the physical laws, as we know them today, do not allow it.
There will never be agreements between these 2 kinds of people unless they adopt the same hermeneutical approach.
Here is my stance on the issue.
According to me, nature can be said to be a book of God, as well as the Quran. So, there cannot be contradictions between nature and the Quran.
However, it is possible that the knowledge we have of the laws of nature is imperfect or incorrect.My approach is then to evaluate the reliability of the scientific knowledge (knowledge of the laws of the nature). For example, I will consider that a stick cannot physically move like a snake. On other issues, I may consider that the scientifically knowledge is unreliable.
And, when I estimate that, for an issue, the scientifically knowledge is reliable; I will endeavor to stick my interpretation of the Quran to it. In the case of the stick moving like a snake, I will see it to be metaphoric.I am aware that I can be wrong, but I consider that the likelihood for my interpretation to be wrong is lower while sticking to the scientific knowledge than while sticking to traditional knowledge.
Looking forward for your opinions?
Peace
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As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.I understand it like this
If it says that a stick changed into a snake, then it's literal. Why? Because Allah can make it so. Why? To show the miracle that pharaoh wanted a miracle, something out of this world, something impossible to humans.However, i will do some more research on this issue.
As salamu alaykum.
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As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.I understand it like this
If it says that a stick changed into a snake, then it's literal. Why? Because Allah can make it so. Why? To show the miracle that pharaoh wanted a miracle, something out of this world, something impossible to humans.However, i will do some more research on this issue.
As salamu alaykum.
When the unbelievers were requesting to Muhammad to produce this kind of miracles, God refused.
Why would he have let Moses use miracles, while refusing it to Muhammad ?See , , , , , , , , , , , ,
IMHO, human beings are expected to evaluate the Message by way of reason, and not by way of miracles and supernatural phenomena.
The real miracle is all that with around us, the nature and his (unchangeable) laws.Peace
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As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.You asked why God allowed Moses to come to pharaoh with miralces but not Muhammad?
Well, when Jesus came with miracles from Allah, people eventually turned Jesus into something other then human being. Jesus received all those miralces from God and people forgot that. Soon, they would say that Jesus was the one who makes things happen, that he is the one who runs the show.
I think that the reason why Muhammad had no such miracles is the same. People would eventually think of him like christians think of Jesus, but nevertheless, Muhammad was given one miracle - The Qur'an.In the Qur'an are the things that are appearing now. Discovery of cerebral cortex, planets floating, war in Iraq, 9-11-2001 disaster, Serbia becoming smaller, Bosnia war, sects in Islam, ......
I hope i didn't say anything wrong. If i have said something wrong, i wronged because i'm human, may Allah forgive me. Only Allah Most Merciful knows best.
As salamu alaykum. -
In modern physics, the solid or substance-like matter or particles have reduced themselves into mere events that occur one after another where certain rules are maintained in the repetition of events but there is no more the idea that one event is the necessary effect of the previous event. In modern psychology, the substance like entity of self or ego or soul has also been reduced to mere succession of events. We do not need to believe in any substance like existence of matter and soul. The atom-events (atom meaning the unit packet of event) are in essence the commands of Allah (kun). The entire universe is a stream of events or kun that, in a case, appear as matter, and in another, as mind or soul, which, in turn, belong to a higher order kun. So you can imagine, how precariously we and the universe depend on Allah for our instantaneous existence and for our future. Please don?t ask me what is the nature of ?time? and what is the relation between Allah and time. And please don't think that I have gone mad. It is just for a thought.
It is not physically impossible for a stick to turn into a snake. The question is whether it really happened or not.
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As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.But God said, after Moses got scared of the snake, that He will return the snake into its original matter - the stick.
So, if you ask me, yeah, the stick as we know it, God turned into a snake, then back into a stick to show it to Moses first then Moses went with that miracle to pharaoh.We're all entitled to our opinions.
As salamu alaykum. -
Salamun 'alaikum brother JM,
When the unbelievers were requesting to Muhammad to produce this kind of miracles, God refused.
Why would he have let Moses use miracles, while refusing it to Muhammad ?See , , , , , , , , , , , ,
I believe the answer of your question can be found in these verses.
2106 When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
2107 Do you not recognize the fact that GOD possesses the kingship of the heavens and the earth; that you have none besides GOD as your Lord and Master?
2108 Do you wish to demand of your messenger what was demanded of Moses in the past? Anyone who chooses disbelief, instead of belief, has truly strayed off the right path.IMHO, human beings are expected to evaluate the Message by way of reason, and not by way of miracles and supernatural phenomena.
I don't know what you believe guys but I feel quran is really miracle and divine Book. Without the miracle, why should human beings be expected to evaluate its message or be expected to obey messengers such as Jesus, Moses, etc in the past? I mean, if I am not convinced that a Book is from Allah or a person is the messenger of Allah, then why should I even bother to learn from the Book or to obey the person?
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Peace
Dear All
Even though Muhammad did not do any miracles, in the hadith (which I do not agree with) it still says he did.
Even though he did not perform miracles, they still (hadithists) tried to turn him to more than he is.
We humans are never happy, miracles, no miracles, if we are bent on disbelief, we will find zillion excuses either not to believe, or associate partners with God.
I am very content at the Quran being the greatest miracle that ever was, and that if Allah makes us enlightened enough in its understanding, we will be able to solve all the problems we are faced with, and beyond. We just need to be open to His guidance. And by the way I came to this site as a result of a prayer I made a few years ago asking God to guide me as I want to get closer to the Real Truth.
Allah knows best.
Salam
Nabster -
Peace
prashant_kumar you made excellent comments, and I can relate to them as I studied quantum physics. In fact this reminds me that there is a specific ayat in the Quran that says that when we die, we will be cut out from "the causes" (asbab in arabic) (maybe causes/events binding this universe). Thank you you brought me a bowl of fresh air in undestanding.
Peace
Nabster -
One of the things I still need to ponder much is this 'need for miracles' so prevalent among people. The need for miracles forms the basis of myths and religions, and miracles or supposed documentation of miracles are often put forth as proof of the Unseen. What is it in the human mind that makes it longs for miracles and extraordinary happenings? Why aren't we content with regularities and natural laws?
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Salaam bro Andya,
Why aren't we content with regularities and natural laws?
I do. Because I can try to learn them and appreciate them after fully-understanding them. At least that's how I view it.
=adley=
PS Bro, you might want to fix the text in your avatar. ;D
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Peace JM,
Excellent thread. I agree with your approach. One of the many things that used to bother me about believing in the literal/supernatural text was the fact that these events happened so long ago, when the world was much smaller, but no less or more violent/oppressive than today. Pharoah was stopped dead in his tracks for challenging God's messenger but Mussolini and Stalin and Hitler and Milosevic got free passes to execute and torture millions.
Couldn't this world use a healer like Jesus walking around and striking aids from existence and healing the blind and feeding the millions of starving children with the flick of his wrist?
In my view, God lets these things happen because He always let these things happen, otherwise it would be completely imbalanced. The message is that we need to emulate these charachters to change the world, not to believe that they changed the world with supernatural feats but we're stuck here with mortal abilities.
But that's just me.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
How are we going to be raised from the dead then, is this part of the natural laws? I believe the natural laws are a minute restriction of much higher laws to which the jinns have access to at a higher level, and the angels to an even higher level. The highest Level being with the Almighty. All will be made clear when we die. This is why it is a proof of faith that Allah asks from us, if we accept Him as our Maker. Maybe they are not miracles at all, but abilities we have not yet achieved... After all He talks to us about what He can do, which is a great privilege in itself. Most of us do not respect Allah the way He should be respected as He extolls us in the Quran.
We already perform feats that will look as miracles to people of old with all the technologies we managed, with Allah's leave, to develop.
Nabster -
Peace Nabster, JM, all,
How are we going to be raised from the dead then, is this part of the natural laws?
The Qur'an tells us that we die every night. There is no "raising" per se, but a release of the soul from the clutches of the physical realm.
I believe the natural laws are a minute restriction of much higher laws to which the jinns have access to at a higher level, and the angels to an even higher level. The highest Level being with the Almighty.
I understand your perspective but I can't agree, based on 2 things First, why would the 2 beings that possess free-will be at the lower levels. And second, how can the malaikat exist at the level closest to God yet still be subservient to man? Meanwhile, jinn are not subservient but deceivers, in some cases. At any rate, perhaps instead of a hierarchy, your understanding would work better as a parallel.
All will be made clear when we die.
Certainly.
This is why it is a proof of faith that Allah asks from us, if we accept Him as our Maker.
I don't see how your explanation answers this question.
Maybe they are not miracles at all, but abilities we have not yet achieved...
It's possible.
Most of us do not respect Allah the way He should be respected as He extolls us in the Quran.
OK.
We already perform feats that will look as miracles to people of old with all the technologies we managed, with Allah's leave, to develop.
I agree.
JM, I just wanted to reply to you one of your thoughts that I overlooked. You stated
There will never be agreements between these 2 kinds of people unless they adopt the same hermeneutical approach.
I've come to the realization that agreement may simply not be possible, and perhaps, should not even be the goal. Understanding each other is what is important.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
What I find amazing, really amazing, is that in the Quaran Allah clearly says in plain Arabic that He allowed some of His Prophets to perform miracles by His leave, that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic, and Allah saying that whatever miracles performed, they will still not believe, and yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
Nabster -
Peace
What I find amazing, really amazing, is that in the Quaran Allah clearly says in plain Arabic that He allowed some of His Prophets to perform miracles by His leave, that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic, and Allah saying that whatever miracles performed, they will still not believe, and yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
NabsterEXACTLY
Peace bro
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Peace
What I find amazing, really amazing, is that in the Quaran Allah clearly says in plain Arabic that He allowed some of His Prophets to perform miracles by His leave, that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic, and Allah saying that whatever miracles performed, they will still not believe, and yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
NabsterPeace bro
The Quran put it in an excellent way
And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say This is naught but the stories of the ancients.
(25)
Salam
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Salam again AhmedBahgat
Thank you for the evidence, I am really glad you are around...
Take care
Peace
Nabster -
Peace
How are we going to be raised from the dead then, is this part of the natural laws? I believe the natural laws are a minute restriction of much higher laws to which the jinns have access to at a higher level, and the angels to an even higher level. The highest Level being with the Almighty. All will be made clear when we die. This is why it is a proof of faith that Allah asks from us, if we accept Him as our Maker. Maybe they are not miracles at all, but abilities we have not yet achieved... After all He talks to us about what He can do, which is a great privilege in itself. Most of us do not respect Allah the way He should be respected as He extolls us in the Quran.
We already perform feats that will look as miracles to people of old with all the technologies we managed, with Allah's leave, to develop.
NabsterPeace,
Nabster, there has been found evidences of resurrection in laws of nature. I also have studied higher physics.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0
I believe it is in the middle, some things we don't know now that it is possible without loosing the physical laws, and some 'miracles' in the wrong are not miracles but taken out of context. But when we find out that certain things are possible, while we thought it was not, then it is not a miracle anymore he? Then again it falls under normal physics, the only difference is that it is now an unknown territory. I'm really carefull not to dismiss everything, but also not to accpet everything.
Peace