The Obsession to translate the untranslatable.
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Peace,
A recent line of threads deals with the imperative of translating words such as "jinn" & "salat" and while the effort is admirable it must be kept in mind that languages are full of words borrowed from other languages because no adequate word or concept exists in the recipient language.
Words like tsunami (Japanes for tidal wave due to tectonic events), rendezvous (meeting between two people at an agreed time and place), schadenfreude (German for the pleasure of witnessing the suffering of others) are used untranslated in English for a reason - they have no single word that encapsulates the entire idea of the word. Words can be born in certain languages and by necessity require adoption into the recipient language rather than translation which may be impossible.
In the case of the words under discussion, there are instances where a translation of the intended nuance of meaning is possible; but the concept as a whole in my opinion defies translation into one English word.
I hope this can be kept in mind, even as people struggle to find the best meanings.
Regards and peace,
Oben -
Peace truth, completely agree.
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As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.People are obssessed to transllate something because they're maybe afraid that if they don't, they might be missing something. I mean, that's just my opinion. Sometimes i'm afraid if i don't search for specific thing, i might miss something wonderful or be attacked by something i could've prevented.
As salamu alaykum.
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peace
I agree. I wanted the words salat and jinn translated, but after seeing the discussions, I think that they're best left in their arabic forms.
But as I suggested in the other thread, we can add a note to the end explaining why the words weren't translated and what they mean.
I still think some of the names should be translated.
peace -
I don?t agree.
If you cannot translate something that means that you are unable to understand it.
If I you can?t understand it, you can do noting of it (you can not find guidance in it).If you are unable to translate in English words the Arabic word salat, it entails that you will be unable to transform in acts. Thus, when God says to you that you should uphold the salat, it is like he has said you nothing.
One cannot be satisfied by such a situation.
Peace
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peace JM,
i don't think that leaving a word untranslated means that we don't understand it. It just means that there isn't 1 word in english that is enough to convey its full meaning. Or even 2 as we've found with salat and jinn.
Unless we can find a word later on as our understanding progresses, then why not. But for now, there doesn't seem to be one. -
peace JM,
i don't think that leaving a word untranslated means that we don't understand it. It just means that there isn't 1 word in english that is enough to convey its full meaning. Or even 2 as we've found with salat and jinn.
Unless we can find a word later on as our understanding progresses, then why not. But for now, there doesn't seem to be one.If all the occurences of an arabic word cannot be translated with 1 word, but 2 ones, then we should translate with the first word in the verse A, and with the second word in verse 2.
Check the verb daraba for example (cf http//www.free-minds.org/women/beating.htm). This word has multiple possible translations, yet it is not left untranslated. Each occurence of it is translated with his more appropriate translation.Peace
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Peace JM,
So are you saying that a rendezvous is impossible unless translated?
For me, rendezvous is now an English word, even if it originates from French.
Please note that the English word rendezvous, can be used as a verb in English, like in "The police arranged to rendezvous with their informant at a disused warehouse." , however, it can not be used as a verb in French.There are many words from the English language that originate from Latin, or Greek, however they are now English words, nobody would contend that they are not english words because, in the past, they were Latin or Greek words.
Please also note that the French word rendez-vous can also be translated by appointment.
Peace
Peace
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Peace JM,
Understood. My point is that one no longer says "meeting at an agreed time and place", they simply say "rendezvous". And people don't generally say, "I have a rendezvous with my doctor this afternoon", unless, of course, something other than a patient-doctor relationship is taking place. Thus, appointment doesn't quite fit.
Nevertheless, getting back to the topic at hand, jinn and salat are 2 terms that mean different things in different contexts. Unless the translator intends on defining the terms appropriately according to the contexts in every usage, along with footnotes so that the reader can understand why the term has been translated as such, then I feel they are better left untranslated.
In my estimation, if one of the points of new translations is to break free of preconceptions, it defeats the purpose to impose new preconceptions, just for the sake of brevity and/or trying to find one term to cover numerous meanings when one may not exist.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace JM,
Understood. My point is that one no longer says "meeting at an agreed time and place", they simply say "rendezvous". And people don't generally say, "I have a rendezvous with my doctor this afternoon", unless, of course, something other than a patient-doctor relationship is taking place. Thus, appointment doesn't quite fit.
Nevertheless, getting back to the topic at hand, jinn and salat are 2 terms that mean different things in different contexts. Unless the translator intends on defining the terms appropriately according to the contexts in every usage, along with footnotes so that the reader can understand why the term has been translated as such, then I feel they are better left untranslated.
In my estimation, if one of the points of new translations is to break free of preconceptions, it defeats the purpose to impose new preconceptions, just for the sake of brevity and/or trying to find one term to cover numerous meanings when one may not exist.
Peace,
TayPeace Tay,
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As Laith have said, leaving the words untranslated defeats the purpose of a translation.
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If a word can have multiple meanings depending of the context, it should be translated at each occurrence with the best meaning considering the context ( this is what is done with the verb daraba).
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A translation inevitably adds the preconceptions of his author. A translation of the Quran is inevitably a translation of the understanding of his author. It cannot be unbiased.
That?s why Rashid Rida had issued a fatwa according to which the Quran should not be translated.
Please find below some excerpts of this fatwa
Peace
A literal translation of the Qur?an which is identical to the original text is impossible, as will be clear from the following arguments. The translation of the meaning is nothing but the translator?s understanding of the Qur?an or an understanding for which he may perhaps have relied on the understanding of its commentators. This translation will then not be the Qur?an but the understanding of an individual who may be right or wrong in his understanding and so the aim of translation in the sense that we reject will not be realized.
The Qur?an prohibited taqlid in religion and denounced the imitators. Deriving religion from the translation of the Qur?an is an imitation of its translator, so it is a deviation from the guidance of the Qur?an and is not in accordance with it.
This necessarily means that those who depend merely on the translation are deprived of the quality that Allah identified in the believers in His saying, ?Say thou ?This is my way; I do invite unto Allah,?with a certain knowledge I and whoever follows me. Glory to Allah! and never will I Join gods with Allah! ?? in other similar verses which make it a virtue of a Muslim to make use of his mind and understanding of what Allah has revealed.
And just as it necessitates their deprivation of these supreme qualities, it also necessitates that the application of ijtihad to and deduction from the words of the translator be not allowed, for no Muslim deems this permissible.The Qur?an is a source of guidance and Divine knowledge which is perpetual, the guidance of which is still continuous, and becomes manifest to the reader in accordance with his preparation and wisdom, so some of its wisdom and secrets may be apparent to a later which were not apparent to their predecessors. This confirms the general meaning of the hadith which reads, ??the informed one might comprehend it better than the present audience, .? But translation of it invalidates this quality, for it to the meaning which the translator used according to his understanding. For instance, the translator may understand Allah?s saying, ?And we send the fecundating winds,? as a metaphor in the sense that the contact between the wind and clouds which leads to the falling of rain is similar to the impregnation of a female by a male and the subsequent birth of a child. This is the understanding of some commentators. So if he translates it in this way, suppose that he does not find in the target language a word equivalent to the Arabic word ?lawaqih? in both the literal and metaphorical senses which in its broadest usage it is capable of bearing? The readers will then be limited to this understanding and will not be able to understand the literal reference of this statement, namely that the wind is in reality lawaqih because it carries pollen from male trees to female ones. But even if (it could be argued that) this example does not prove the rule because the verse could be translated literally, there are also other examples and it is enough to quote this example as explanatory. The translation will confine us to a finite understanding and thus deprives us of the intended continuity .
He also mentioned that some Arabic words do have equivalent Persian words, ?but the Persians are not accustomed to using them metaphorically as the Arabs do.? So if the translator uses the Persian word, what will appear is the literal meaning of the Arabic word, when what was meant by Allah may have been the metaphorical meaning. This is applicable to other languages as Persian. This point is misleading particularly when the discourse concerns Allah the Almighty and His Attributes and Actions.
http//www.quranicstudies.com/printout84.html
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Peace JM,
- As Laith have said, leaving the words untranslated defeats the purpose of a translation.
The whole point of this thread, as I understand it, is that some words do not translate well from one language to another. Hence, keeping the word intact defines it by it's context in the unique way it was intended.
- If a word can have multiple meanings depending of the context, it should be translated at each occurrence with the best meaning considering the context ( this is what is done with the verb daraba).
I agree. Or, just leave it be.
- A translation inevitably adds the preconceptions of his author. A translation of the Quran is inevitably a translation of the understanding of his author. It cannot be unbiased.
I agree, to an extent. The translator can minimize the preconception damage by offering all/most meanings of a given word. Further, even an untranslated understanding of the text brings bias with it. 2 people well-versed in Arabic, from the same country, can come to 2 completely different understandings, as is witnessed in this forum.
Fatwa or no fatwa, it all depends on what information is at your disposal.
Peace,
Tay -
maybe this guy doesn't want the millions of non-arab speaking muslims to learn what the quran actually says and his power to give fatwas will be no more?
I understand that we should always consider the translations as interpretations instead...but allthough i can read arabic, I don't understand it. This would leave most muslims completely reliant on hadith. Which might be what this guy wants anyways.
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Peace Tay,
First, I agree that, when you are unsure about how to translate a word, it can be better not to translate it.
However, I would not feel satisfied with such an inchoate situation.
Let?s assume you leave salat untranslated.
The people who know noting of Islam will not understand.
The other people will understand it as the traditional muslims do.
Is it really satisfying?
I don?t think so.Idem for the word jinn.
It exists now in the English language, and it means ?In Muslim legend, a spirit often capable of assuming human or animal form and exercising supernatural influence over people.?.
So, if you leave it be, the people may understand it this way.
Is it really satisfying?
I don?t think so.There are several ways to handle the problem.
- Leaving the words untranslated, and appending the translation with a glossary
See http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/exposition.htm
It is a very interesting approach for those who want to study the quran, anyway, it can no longer be called a translation.
- A non-literal and explanatory translation
See http//www.beacon2005.com/QXP%202nd%20edition%206-18-03.doc
I don?t like this approach because
- it is not really a translation
- it requires to check other translation to verify the accuracy of the rendition
- A purely literal translation
See http//www.studyquran.co.uk/MSAhmed_Koran_translation.htm
It is not easily understandable, and is still biased.
- A literal translation with explanatory footnotes
See
http//www.theholyquran.org/?x=s_main&kid=33
http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/guide.htm?region=E1
This is the best solution IMHO. Footnotes should be added whenever the translation is different from the standard one (in English, the one of Yusuf Ali).
Peace
- Leaving the words untranslated, and appending the translation with a glossary
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Peace JM,
Well said. However, I continue to disagree with your conclusion because of the fact there is no perfect literal translation for either jinn or salat that would work in every instance, imo. So, I would ammend your list to include option #5
Leaving the word untranslated with explanatory footnotes.
This, in my opinion, is the furthest one can get from bias.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace JM,
Well said. However, I continue to disagree with your conclusion because of the fact there is no perfect literal translation for either jinn or salat that would work in every instance, imo. So, I would ammend your list to include option #5
Peace tay,
The fact that there is no perfect translation of salat fitting in every instance cannot, IMHO, be a valid raison for leaving it untranslated.
The verb daraba is in this case, and yet it gets translated, at each instance, in the more appropriate way considering the context.The only acceptable reason for leaving a word untranslated would be the lack of (consensus in the) understanding of the meaning of this word.
Peace
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peace
I was thinking that translating the word differently will defeat the purpose of using the same arabic word for every instance.
Why doesn't the Quran use different words? Why does it use a different form of the same word to explain different things?
that's why we should leave it as it is.But if it doesn't do the above, then we can translate it differently.
JM is right, if we do it for Daraba, why not do it for salat and jinn?