The Obsession to translate the untranslatable.
-
Peace be upon you ,
The fallacy here is that even if you keep the word in Arabic, unless you speak arabic, you have to translate the meaning in your mind to understand it anyway, so this conversation is not even logical. Of course you can translate it into another language.
-
Salaam people,
I have been reading this thread and I think both Tay and /JM/ have very valid points which can make it an endless back and forth debate. Tay has a very strong point That if there is no consesus understanding of an Arabic word or if there are way too many difficulties and complications to translate it, it would be SAFER to leave it as is and provide a glossary and explanation.
However, we truly cannot ignore /JM/ 's point concerning the fact that we have translations that do, in fact, translate daraba in it's many contexts throughout the reading. To a certain extent, this has also been done with zakaa' where in traditional translations the translators have used the english term to purify when the context made it obvious that it is the only logical rendetion in that case.
IMHO, we can get rid of ALL of these complications, guess-work and debates if we learn to read the qur'an in it's original language (Arabic). For me, that would be THE overall solution. ;D
My two cents..........
Peace peace
Damon. -
Peace Damon,
IMHO, we can get rid of ALL of these complications, guess-work and debates if we learn to read the qur'an in it's original language (Arabic). For me, that would be THE overall solution. ;D
Learning Arabic is certainly useful but it is not a solution for everything as you imply. In fact, no one should think that they understand better than others because of being a speaker of one form of Arabic or another (there are many "Arabics". Such thinking is nothing but delusional arrogance. Certainly the many sectarian Arabic speakers who don't understand much of the message of the great reading are proof of this.
I do agree with JM, Tay and Kyle that concepts must be translated. Unfortunately, "daraba" is not a good example of multiple meanings because it always means "separate" in all its occurrences in the book.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace All,
I would just like to be clear on where I personally stand on this topic, seeing as how we've hopped around a little bit. In my opinion, taking on the task of translating the Qur'an for others is a tremendous responsibility which requires 2 things of the translator 1)precision and 2)purity
As JM and I have agreed, any translation will bear the unique fingerprints of the translator's bias(es). Therefore, it is the translator's responsibilty to do his utmost to remain as close to the original text as humanly possible. Many words translate easily from Arabic to English. Some do not. In the case of salat and jinn, the meaning varies so much from ayah to ayah that there is no one word in English, in my opinon, that fully encapsulates what is being expressed by these words in Arabic.
This is the dilemma.
Now, I have no problem with the translator using different English words in the different ayat as long as the terms used are footnoted to explain to the reader why the translator used this specific translation in this specific instance. This will guide the reader in understanding, as well as appreciating that the word itself is dynamic. This is an important facet of the message that would be lost if the reader didn't know what word was being translated in the first place.
The other solution is to not translate the words, but provide the reader with all possible meanings so that he/she can find the best meaning on his/her own. The second advantage to this method is that over time, the term will take on a life of it's own in the reader's mind as the dynamic meanings paint the full spectrum of what the term was meant to illustrate. And lastly, I believe this method is the safest method as far as controlling the translator's bias(es) is concerned.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Ayman,
Peace Damon,
IMHO, we can get rid of ALL of these complications, guess-work and debates if we learn to read the qur'an in it's original language (Arabic). For me, that would be THE overall solution. ;D
Learning Arabic is certainly useful but it is not a solution for everything as you imply. In fact, no one should think that they understand better than others because of being a speaker of one form of Arabic or another (there are many "Arabics". Such thinking is nothing but delusional arrogance.
My brother....I never said ANYTHING about some having a better understanding than others due to knowledge of the language...so I feel the "delusional arrogance" comment was unwarranted. I place the heart way above the language, but I am of the opinion that someone with the heart of Taqwa as well as an understanding of the language will be in the ideal position concerning this subject.
Certainly the many sectarian Arabic speakers who don't understand much of the message of the great reading are proof of this.
I agree, hence my statement above.
I do agree with JM, Tay and Kyle that concepts must be translated. Unfortunately, "daraba" is not a good example of multiple meanings because it always means "separate" in all its occurrences in the book.
Peace,
Ayman
I disagree with you on this....434 Does Not mean to seperate...not in that context.
Peace,
Damon. -
my opinion is that it should definitely be translated, paying attention to context.
Unfortunately, the format of 'The Message' (i.e. no footnotes) allows very little flexibility, and is problematic on occassion. Hence not a feature of an ideal Quran translation. Something which QuranInstitute.org intends to produce in the future.
-
Peace be upon you Wakas,
That looks like a good site, is that yours?
-
Peace Wakas,
If you don't mind, do you know why they had a falling out? I recall being a regular on that forum, and I found brother Liaquat to be very mentor-like, albeit, stern, but he certainly had the respect of the forum. And then, one day, he was gone, and everyone was bashing him, and all his posts deleted. It was sad, because I thought QXP was his brainchild, and then all his credits were removed from the book.
Anyway, if you know and feel like sharing, whether here or in a pm, I'd certainly appreciate it.
Thanks.
Peace,
Tay -
peace brother Tay,
Feel free to ask Liaquat about it, he is open to approach from my experience. He will know the reasons better than I.
Hmmm. Didn't realize Brother Liaquat is the co-author of QXP by Dr. Shabbir. I have a copy of QXP and his name isn't even mentioned. Sounds like a case of "intellectual
theft" by Dr. Shabbir. -
Peace Wakas, and welcome Abe,
Wakas, I'll do that.
Abe, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions until you know the facts.
Peace,
TayI am curious to know about it too...
-
Peace brother Damon,
My brother....I never said ANYTHING about some having a better understanding than others due to knowledge of the language...so I feel the "delusional arrogance" comment was unwarranted. I place the heart way above the language, but I am of the opinion that someone with the heart of Taqwa as well as an understanding of the language will be in the ideal position concerning this subject.
I apologize if my comment seemed to be directed at you. It wasn't. I completely agree with you about the heart forethoughtfulness being the primary factor.
I disagree with you on this....434 Does Not mean to seperate...not in that context.
Why?
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman and all,
I apologize if my comment seemed to be directed at you. It wasn't. I completely agree with you about the heart forethoughtfulness being the primary factor.
Oh, I apologize for misunderstanding that part of your post. And yeah, I definately place the heart way above knowledge of the arabic language because GOD is the teacher. If you knew absolutely nothing about the arabic language and G.W. Bush was an arabic scholar, I will choose to place my trust in your understanding because I have seen you demonstrate much of your noble character here whereas Bush does not fear GOD.
I disagree with you on this....434 Does Not mean to seperate...not in that context.
Why?
Mainly for three reasons bro.
-
The theme of this verse is the resolution of husband and wife strife.
-
Also, you are correct that most derivatives of D-R-B do not mean beat or strike.....but most of them do not mean to leave or seperate either. I have serached this root on many dictionaries and the majority of the derivatives have the meaning of to irritate/ to annoy/ or to harrass. In the context of this verse, this makes perfect sense to me.
3). The deciding factor for me concerning this verse is the fact that GOD has said " if they heed you, then make no way over them..." The question would then be HOW can she heed/or obey you AFTER you have already left/seperated from her?
I would translate the verse as....
The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear troublesome acts, then you shall advise/warn them, and abandon them in bed, and badger them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.
Well, this is my understanding of that particular verse....I am all ears to other's views concerning this understanding of mine.
Peace,
Damon. -
-
peace brother Damon,
I have it as "leave them be..." as in a time out, not leave her or the household permanently.
I think this is logical, as if it just said "then you shall advise/warn them, and leave them be" without mentioning the specific of the bedroom then this is more ambiguous, nor as effective, as the bedroom is the one place where couples would be expected to be together.
Also, it is more logical to still be able to talk to each other, once advice has been given and the wife some space to think about it, hence being there would facillitate reconcilliation.
That is my understanding at the moment. I am open to other views also.
-
Peace Brother Wakas,
peace brother Damon,
I have it as "leave them be..." as in a time out, not leave her or the household permanently.
I think this is logical, as if it just said "then you shall advise/warn them, and leave them be" without mentioning the specific of the bedroom then this is more ambiguous, nor as effective, as the bedroom is the one place where couples would be expected to be together.
Also, it is more logical to still be able to talk to each other, once advice has been given and the wife some space to think about it, hence being there would facillitate reconcilliation.
That is my understanding at the moment. I am open to other views also.
Another reason I have come to this understanding is that GOD constantly repeats Himself throughout the reading. He constantly repeats certain things many, many times. I took that knowledge along with how a derivative of D-R-B is used by GOD in 1424.
You and I do agree that 434 alludes to the presence of the man in the life of the wife as opposed to packing his bags and leaving for good.
I am always studying and researching and I have absolutely no problem or shame in changing my position and understanding when logic and evidence compels me too, so I will continue to study and research this particular topic GOD Willing.
Thanx for your explanation on this Wakas.
Peace,
Damon. -
peace brother Damon,
I dont understand your connecting of 1424 with the usage you suggested "badger". Please clarify.
I forgot to say that 434 is a hypothetical, i.e. "IF you fear...", thus if you choose "badger them" then this seems unfair, as they are being badgered for no apparent reason/offence. Furthermore, as far as I'm aware the notion of punishment prior to any crime being committed is unheard of in 'the reading'. I could be mistaken however, as I have not studied this aspect thoroughly. If it is correct however, then this would significantly reduce the likelihood of "badger". What do you think?
Furthermore, the core of DRB does seem to be "separate". I recall brother burhan giving a nice explanation
http//www.free-minds.org/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=2671&start=0Dear All,
The english "separate" happens to be the perfect multiple meaning verb for the multiple meaning arabic verb "DaRaBa".
In the quran this verb is used as follows
Arabic usage "to explain/to site an example"
English separate -> disentangle -> make clear -> explainArabic usage "to travel"
English
separate -> go away -> depart -> travelArabic usage "to hit"
separate -> intersect -> join/cross -> touch -> hit.The word intersect can mean to divide or join depending on the context, very similiar to daraba.
Let the context determine what 434 means.
For example are you being told "what to hit" (head, back) and "what to hit with" (your shoe, hand).
Peace.
I am always studying and researching and I have absolutely no problem or shame in changing my position and understanding when logic and evidence compels me too, so I will continue to study and research this particular topic GOD Willing.
Ditto! Gaining knowledge/understanding is a continual process.
Wakas
