How can we better the debates?

wildguest1956

The discussions here become sometimes too much harsh and personal.

What can we do so that FM keeps being a peaceful place where everyone can learn from the others?

Here are some propositions

Avoid win-lose mentality
Avoid arrogance (?I am better than thee?)
Never be too much sure your understanding is right
Don?t rush before responding. Prefer quality to quantity
Try to go to the groundings of the disagreements (hermeneutics)
Avoid logical fallacies
Give proofs of your assertions when requested

Any other ideas ?

Peace

savage_carrot

Peace JM,

Nice topic and excellent points.

I would like to add that we should all have the perception to realise when things are going in circles and have the grace to bow out. The intelligent will see what happened and we don't need to get the last word or push our points. To highlight my point, there is this really funny thing that happens sometimes when posters go, 'That's it!! I have said what I have to say and I don't wish to debate with you anymore, you bad person!' Then magically after the other poster responds, they go, 'Oh but wait I have to address this' (and goes through the entire thing again) and then ends it with 'I have said what I have to say and don't wish to debate with you anymore, you bad person!' and this can be repeated ad infinitum. I think this might be to get the last word or maybe not really wanting to end the debate but trying to appear as if they are taking the high road. I mean if you say you don't want to, DON'T. How difficult is that? Or just ignoring them without announcing your intentions...that's really the best way.
Another thing would be to strategically pick and choose debates with people we think we can debate with reasonably, otherwise if we know that the other poster typically has a preferred 'method of debating' and ignoring this keep at it, it will add to the woes and frustration. To add to this, if we see posters that are debating while constantly breaking the rules, please and I really mean please, highlight their sordid history where these infractions occured and send it all to us. We will deal with it.

-Adding to the previous point, there are some neverending sources of torment and anguish on this forum, which I dub the sensitive topics. For example the 'symbolic vs. literal' debates or the 'why can't we love gays' debates or the 'Wine, beer and drug' controversies and the best which I saved for last (because of some really hilarious posters), 'Is evolution for real! Is it?!?'. Unless one can debate such topics, in particular with tact, intelligence and a poker face, I would suggest not getting into them. They literally erupt into these huge fight-fests where everybody is having at each other and sure it's exciting and all but it does get too much for the faint-hearted and besides which I forgot we have rules

Hope others can add more stuff we can gain insight from and use in future 'debates'.

wildguest1956

Peace JM,

Nice topic and excellent points.

I would like to add that we should all have the perception to realise when things are going in circles and have the grace to bow out. The intelligent will see what happened and we don't need to get the last word or push our points. To highlight my point, there is this really funny thing that happens sometimes when posters go, 'That's it!! I have said what I have to say and I don't wish to debate with you anymore, you bad person!' Then magically after the other poster responds, they go, 'Oh but wait I have to address this' (and goes through the entire thing again) and then ends it with 'I have said what I have to say and don't wish to debate with you anymore, you bad person!' and this can be repeated ad infinitum. I think this might be to get the last word or maybe not really wanting to end the debate but trying to appear as if they are taking the high road. I mean if you say you don't want to, DON'T. How difficult is that? Or just ignoring them without announcing your intentions...that's really the best way.

Good point, but it is not that easy.
Maybe sometimes, the formulae ?agree to disagree? can be a good way to end a debate.

Another thing would be to strategically pick and choose debates with people we think we can debate with reasonably, otherwise if we know that the other poster typically has a preferred 'method of debating' and ignoring this keep at it, it will add to the woes and frustration. To add to this, if we see posters that are debating while constantly breaking the rules, please and I really mean please, highlight their sordid history where these infractions occured and send it all to us. We will deal with it.

Insulting language is a clear break of the rules, but arrogance is not.
Very often, when there are insults, they follow arrogance.
So, respecting the rules is necessary but not sufficient for the forum to be a peaceful debating place.
If you prevent B from saying insults while letting A being arrogant, you are not solving the problem, and you are raising frustrations.
This is why, I believe, we need more than the clear rules we already have. We may need a charter of good behavior, or something like that.

-Adding to the previous point, there are some neverending sources of torment and anguish on this forum, which I dub the sensitive topics. For example the 'symbolic vs. literal' debates or the 'why can't we love gays' debates or the 'Wine, beer and drug' controversies and the best which I saved for last (because of some really hilarious posters), 'Is evolution for real! Is it?!?'. Unless one can debate such topics, in particular with tact, intelligence and a poker face, I would suggest not getting into them. They literally erupt into these huge fight-fests where everybody is having at each other and sure it's exciting and all but it does get too much for the faint-hearted and besides which I forgot we have rules

You are right?
IHMO, the frustrations are partly a consequence of our inability to address these issues in their core (i.e the differences in our hermeneutical approaches).

Thanks for your inputs

Peace

Heart

Salam,

I'm glad JM is bringing this up, because I also noticed some friction and hostility between members. My advice would be control your ego! Try to understand someone's view and/or opinion and try to respect it. If you don't agree,don't act to harsh, but act righteouss. Please, control that ego!

peace

Heart

wildguest1956

Salam,

I'm glad JM is bringing this up, because I also noticed some friction and hostility between members. My advice would be control your ego! Try to understand someone's view and/or opinion and try to respect it. If you don't agree,don't act to harsh, but act righteouss. Please, control that ego!

peace

Heart

You are right; "control your ego" is surely the key point.

But... To help clarify things...Can we list some of the manifestations of lack in controlling our egos ?

Here are some

arrogance
too much self-assurance
using sophisms when one has no more logical arguments

Can you expand this list ?

Peace

savage_carrot

Good point, but it is not that easy.
Maybe sometimes, the formulae ?agree to disagree? can be a good way to end a debate.

Agreed, that would be best. What's frustrating is that even after one does that (and this happened to me personally) the other comes up with something like, 'Hahah! I knew you couldn't take the heat!! I am the WINAAR!'. Seriously, such posters should be made pinatas, but that's just my wishful thinking

Insulting language is a clear break of the rules, but arrogance is not.
Very often, when there are insults, they follow arrogance.
So, respecting the rules is necessary but not sufficient for the forum to be a peaceful debating place.
If you prevent B from saying insults while letting A being arrogant, you are not solving the problem, and you are raising frustrations.
This is why, I believe, we need more than the clear rules we already have. We may need a charter of good behavior, or something like that.

True, but I really would be interested in knowing how exactly do we enforce the rules on something as subjective as 'arrogance'? For example, if I would like to see intelligent posters, how do we enforce an intelligence threshold on the place? I would like to see 'humble' posters but unless there is something from within them, we can't enforce that. Just remind them but then even that is taken as an insult (speaking from personal exp again). So it's a lose-lose situation. There are rules for good behaviour like #3 where we are expected to respect the other poster's and unless someone crosses the line consistently; there is nothing to be done about it except hope that the smugness and arrogance somehow dissapates from that poster's soul (I would settle for posts even) D

Another thing that might be done is post up this charter of good behaviour after we are done making posts about it, streamline and sticky it. Poster's can then use this as a guideline for their posts before they post if they are so inclined. Again, I would like to clarify that it would be just advice and not the Forum Rules. I will have to think about this further and ask the other mods/admin for their input.

Peace.

Heart

Salam,

I'm glad JM is bringing this up, because I also noticed some friction and hostility between members. My advice would be control your ego! Try to understand someone's view and/or opinion and try to respect it. If you don't agree,don't act to harsh, but act righteouss. Please, control that ego!

peace

Heart

You are right; "control your ego" is surely the key point.

But... To help clarify things...Can we list some of the manifestations of lack in controlling our egos ?

Here are some

arrogance
too much self-assurance
using sophisms when one has no more logical arguments

Can you expand this list ?

Peace

ignorance (tunnelvision/don't want to think outside the box)
jealousy (of someone's knowledge)

Those are the two things I could think of. You already said it all.

peace

Heart

wildguest1956

Good point, but it is not that easy.
Maybe sometimes, the formulae ?agree to disagree? can be a good way to end a debate.

Agreed, that would be best. What's frustrating is that even after one does that (and this happened to me personally) the other comes up with something like, 'Hahah! I knew you couldn't take the heat!! I am the WINAAR!'. Seriously, such posters should be made pinatas, but that's just my wishful thinking

This is win-lose mentality.
It think it is also a manifestation of uncontrolled ego.

Insulting language is a clear break of the rules, but arrogance is not.
Very often, when there are insults, they follow arrogance.
So, respecting the rules is necessary but not sufficient for the forum to be a peaceful debating place.
If you prevent B from saying insults while letting A being arrogant, you are not solving the problem, and you are raising frustrations.
This is why, I believe, we need more than the clear rules we already have. We may need a charter of good behavior, or something like that.

True, but I really would be interested in knowing how exactly do we enforce the rules on something as subjective as 'arrogance'? For example, if I would like to see intelligent posters, how do we enforce an intelligence threshold on the place? I would like to see 'humble' posters but unless there is something from within them, we can't enforce that. Just remind them but then even that is taken as an insult (speaking from personal exp again). So it's a lose-lose situation. There are rules for good behaviour like #3 where we are expected to respect the other poster's and unless someone crosses the line consistently; there is nothing to be done about it except hope that the smugness and arrogance somehow dissapates from that poster's soul (I would settle for posts even) D

Principles like ?avoid arrogance? or ?respect others? are very difficult to be enforced by a moderator?s action.
They can only be applied by self-moderation.

I think that, as muslims, we should all be aware that controlling our ego is part of our duty.
So, one solution can be to expatiate what are the concrete manifestations of it, so that everyone can better one?s behavior.

Another thing that might be done is post up this charter of good behaviour after we are done making posts about it, streamline and sticky it. Poster's can then use this as a guideline for their posts before they post if they are so inclined. Again, I would like to clarify that it would be just advice and not the Forum Rules. I will have to think about this further and ask the other mods/admin for their input.

Peace.

Yes, I agree it should be advices, not rules.

Peace

Alen

As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.

I think that we should always check the Qur'an whenever we disagree over something and research for a long time before we answer to the questions that others ask.

May Allah Most Powerful bless us all.
As salamu alakyum.

wildguest1956

Here are some advices for people who are willing to control their ego (to be less arrogant).
Feel free to make corrections (I am aware my english is weak) or additions.

Be aware that what you hold is not the truth, but only you own understanding. You are but a human being, and you can be mistaken.
Do not state you are better than your contradictor. Expose your best arguments, and the readers will judge for themselves.
When debating, be aware your goal should not be to win against your contradictor. There should be no loser, and both debaters should learn something from each other.
When you have no logical response to make, do not indulge in logical fallacies. Acknowledge your errors or quit the debate.
When you and your contradictor both are sure to be right, try to understand what the disagreement lies on (hidden assumptions...). If feel you can?t, better agree to disagree.
Irony and sarcasms are not arguments. Expose your ideas in the most respectful manner.

Tay

Peace JM, All,

An important and timely thread...

JM, your list

Avoid win-lose mentality
Avoid arrogance (?I am better than thee?)
Never be too much sure your understanding is right
Don?t rush before responding. Prefer quality to quantity
Try to go to the groundings of the disagreements (hermeneutics)
Avoid logical fallacies
Give proofs of your assertions when requested

I would only add, or ammend to #4...if the debate is heated, take a moment to let your emotions cool down, and review what you've typed before submitting your reply, as if you are a casual observer visiting free-minds for the first time. Ask yourself if these words truly represent who you are.

Nadia, you stated

post up this charter of good behaviour after we are done making posts about it, streamline and sticky it. Poster's can then use this as a guideline for their posts before they post if they are so inclined. Again, I would like to clarify that it would be just advice and not the Forum Rules.

Excellent. For those who can hack it, I'd say we shouldn't be afraid or reluctant to let them know if they're slipping. No warning, just a friendly reminder. The more examples we have of humility, the easier it will be to maintain.

Peace,
Tay

savage_carrot

Peace all,

More good points have been posted. I will put them all together in an acceptable format and post it here for suggestions and input before the sticky.

Excellent. For those who can hack it, I'd say we shouldn't be afraid or reluctant to let them know if they're slipping. No warning, just a friendly reminder. The more examples we have of humility, the easier it will be to maintain.

I agree completely. It's a great idea, I think the poster 'someone' posted a thread regarding good conduct not so long back. I will find that one and use some of the points there in the draft I'll do before posting it here for the final revision.

wildguest1956

Be aware that what you hold is not the truth, but only you own understanding. You are but a human being, and you can be mistaken.
Do not state you are better than your contradictor. Expose your best arguments, and the readers will judge for themselves.
When debating, be aware your goal should not be to win against your contradictor. There should be no loser, and both debaters should learn something from each other.
When you have no logical response to make, do not indulge in logical fallacies. Acknowledge your errors or quit the debate.
When you and your contradictor both are sure to be right, try to understand what the disagreement lies on (hidden assumptions...). If feel you can?t, better agree to disagree.
Irony and sarcasms are not arguments. Expose your ideas in the most respectful manner.

The above advices can go into the header "arrogance".

The following can go into the header "impatience"

Don't rush into posting. Take time to fully understand the points raised by your contradictor, and to write the most relevant reply.
If the debate is heated, take a moment to let your emotions cool down, and review what you've typed before submitting your reply, as if you are a casual observer visiting free-minds for the first time. Ask yourself if these words truly represent who you are.
When you are typing a new post, write in the most clear and intelligible way. Do not use SMS language.
Before creating a new thread, make sure the issue you are willing to submit has not already been addressed, by using the search function of the forum.

Tay

Peace All,

Everything sounds good so far. An idea just dawned on me, which I'm not even sure I agree with brickwall, but I'll just throw it out there and see what happens...

First a refresher from the home page

This website has been created for all people who have a desire to allow God into their lives and follow His path alone...

This website invites all people of various beliefs (Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Bahai, Agnostic, Humanist, and even Atheists) to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone.

Many of you may outwardly be content with your current faith or that which you inherited from your parents and community...but to some out there, there will always be a tugging at the back of their mind that 'there is something more', and that 'some things don't always make sense'...

If you are one of those people, then open your eyes, put on your thinking cap, and welcome to an open examination of the system of Submission/Islam which very few know about...

Now, if the goal of this website is to examine the system, then there really is little room for personality clashes, etc. Granted, removing the personalities essentially kills the website. So, how about if the entire forum is divided into 2 main sections.
-Section "a" would consist of critical examination and articles, and cross-examination, etc, in a strict, fact-based dialogue. In other words, no smileys, no rotfl, just streamlined discussion with minimal semantics. This section could be monitored with strict guidelines that allow for zero tolerance of any extracurricular bs.
-Section "b" would be for informal discussion with the same basic category layout, however, it's like the after-party. Conversations can get deep, but don't necessarily have to, while people can be themselves and feel a bit more "free" in expression.

This way, those who are here just to mingle can do so in peace, and those who are here just to study and share, can also do so in peace, with no overlap.

Again, the idea just dawned on me and I haven't really thought it through, nor have I ever really seen an example of this sort of segregation within one forum, so I have no idea if it would even work.

Just some food for thought then...

Peace,
Tay

wildguest1956

Peace All,

Everything sounds good so far. An idea just dawned on me, which I'm not even sure I agree with brickwall, but I'll just throw it out there and see what happens...

First a refresher from the home page

This website has been created for all people who have a desire to allow God into their lives and follow His path alone...

This website invites all people of various beliefs (Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Bahai, Agnostic, Humanist, and even Atheists) to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone.

Many of you may outwardly be content with your current faith or that which you inherited from your parents and community...but to some out there, there will always be a tugging at the back of their mind that 'there is something more', and that 'some things don't always make sense'...

If you are one of those people, then open your eyes, put on your thinking cap, and welcome to an open examination of the system of Submission/Islam which very few know about...

Now, if the goal of this website is to examine the system, then there really is little room for personality clashes, etc. Granted, removing the personalities essentially kills the website. So, how about if the entire forum is divided into 2 main sections.
-Section "a" would consist of critical examination and articles, and cross-examination, etc, in a strict, fact-based dialogue. In other words, no smileys, no rotfl, just streamlined discussion with minimal semantics. This section could be monitored with strict guidelines that allow for zero tolerance of any extracurricular bs.
-Section "b" would be for informal discussion with the same basic category layout, however, it's like the after-party. Conversations can get deep, but don't necessarily have to, while people can be themselves and feel a bit more "free" in expression.

This way, those who are here just to mingle can do so in peace, and those who are here just to study and share, can also do so in peace, with no overlap.

Again, the idea just dawned on me and I haven't really thought it through, nor have I ever really seen an example of this sort of segregation within one forum, so I have no idea if it would even work.

Just some food for thought then...

Peace,
Tay

Peace Tay

It's true this site is dedicated to study, and it is also true that people are here mainly to chat and mingle.

So, I think a new room (not necessarily a new section) can be created for this latter purpose, which can be called "living room".

Peace

phoenix1

peace

I'll tell everyone right now that I don't like Tay's idea. The forum's fine as it is. It doesn't need any changing. It is our behavior that needs changing.

Heart

peace

I'll tell everyone right now that I don't like Tay's idea. The forum's fine as it is. It doesn't need any changing. It is our behavior that needs changing.

I second that.

peace

phoenix1

just so you know Heart, you just seconded a comments of a person who posts manure, is a kafir, and has a lot of bad karma. >D
peace

phoenix1

yes, let Freedom ring!!!!!!!!

savage_carrot

Um, what just happened on this here thread? Ah well.

Tay, about your idea...some people will naturally be opposed to it for various reasons and not just about 'freedom'. One could think that a special section could be assigned to people who want to debate seriously (pretty much like the moderated debate thingy) were there would be a zero tolerance to useless stuff and it wouldn't be about the mods moderating the progression of the debates, while the rest of the forum is allowed to roam free and letting people post LOL's and smilies to their hearts content. I don't think that's a bad idea, but then you will always have those who don't want to feel left out and yet don't think they can participate in debates under strict and stringent conditions who would be opposed to such a section. I don't see why though because if they think or feel they can't participate, then there are others who might like to. This idea has been under discussion and I think it's workable.

As for the sticky, haven't had time yet to work on it. Will do so in a day.

Peace.