How can we better the debates?
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peace SC,
I don't think the idea is workable because
- some will not post thinking that their comments aren't intelligent or beneficial enough to the discussion
- there really isnt a way to AVOID bad posts. People will post "bad" stuff and the moderators will have to keep handing out yellow and red cards. People will get banned for nothing.
- there is a number 3 but I just can't think of it yet.
- can't think of a 4 either.
- people who don't "win" on the "serious" forum will try to win on the "informal" forum. We'll have the same discussions multiple times.
- It won't change or solve much.
This is my suggestion
you mentioned some "hot" topics that people can't reach an agreement on and which lead to person attacks and such.
Why not have a section to debate a few topics like that. I think that's all we need.
There will be a single thread for requesting new topics to be posted. The moderators will be the only ones able to start new threads. This section will have stricter rules than other sections.along with this, we can have the guidelines for posting pinned on every section.
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Oh another thing I would like opinions on. I have discussed this, and there seems to be a problem with the sticky idea. Even after clarifying that it is not part of the rules, I think it still might be construed as being part of rules and could confuse people. In which case, there might be those who would take that advice out of context and start pasting it whenever they think people are going over the line and thus create a situation. What are people's thoughts on this? Is it viable to go through with it? Is there a major chance of such confusion and consequential chaos ensuing?
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yeah, it's like the yellow warning signs on the road. The white signs are the "rules" which you have to follow. The yellow are just there to "warn" you.
There are yellow signs that tell you to slow your car down in a school zone. Technically, you dont HAVE to follow a yellow sign. But if you hit one of the irresponsible teenagers, and you were going over the limit on the yellow sign, it would be your fault.
I know the above was very confusing.I think you're right about the confusion. That will happen.
Make them part of the forum rules, but don't enforce them too strictly. -
Peace Phoenix,
I don't think the idea is workable because
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some will not post thinking that their comments aren't intelligent or beneficial enough to the discussion
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there really isnt a way to AVOID bad posts. People will post "bad" stuff and the moderators will have to keep handing out yellow and red cards. People will get banned for nothing.
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there is a number 3 but I just can't think of it yet.
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can't think of a 4 either.
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people who don't "win" on the "serious" forum will try to win on the "informal" forum. We'll have the same discussions multiple times.
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It won't change or solve much
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Fair enough, point taken. On the other hand those that think they can post beneficial and intelligent posts would rejoice.
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True, but I don't think the situation is about 'bad' posts. It's about people wanting to debate indepth with say, another poster and not wanting to be sidetracked by others. Maybe they want to have a go at it one on one and man to man or whatever. For example, the debate with Ayman and Edip. It was just the two of them and boy, was that a debate to watch with the snacks and soda.
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Hmm, righto then.
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Good Lord man, get yourself together!
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Well, tbh, we still do. Once again I don't think it's about the same people wanting to win on the informal formal etc. It's about them wanting to discuss indepth with minimal distractions. I mean I would love to have two serious posters getting it on (ahem!) on a serious topic, all indepth and all. It's quite a show.
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I don't think it's about changing. It's about giving the people what they want (within reason). I think some might choose to go this way and all the best to them.
This is my suggestion
you mentioned some "hot" topics that people can't reach an agreement on and which lead to person attacks and such.
Why not have a section to debate a few topics like that. I think that's all we need.
There will be a single thread for requesting new topics to be posted. The moderators will be the only ones able to start new threads. This section will have stricter rules than other sections.along with this, we can have the guidelines for posting pinned on every section
Ah yes, work us to death why don't you lot. I will have to think on this idea, thanks for posting it. It does have it's moments I must say.
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yeah, it's like the yellow warning signs on the road. The white signs are the "rules" which you have to follow. The yellow are just there to "warn" you.
There are yellow signs that tell you to slow your car down in a school zone. Technically, you dont HAVE to follow a yellow sign. But if you hit one of the irresponsible teenagers, and you were going over the limit on the yellow sign, it would be your fault.
I know the above was very confusing.I think you're right about the confusion. That will happen.
Make them part of the forum rules, but don't enforce them too strictly.See the thing is, I don't want to enforce subjective rules like 'You! you weren't being humble enough were you! Take that! Whip, whip.
If we don't get flamed enough for being subjective or biased, this will surely do us in. That's why during the discussion, this confusion factor did come in. I don't know really, maybe the header would try to drive it home? Something like 'advice you wish someone had given you to construct a better post and get through to people without coming off as an arrogant er, person' or 'hints one might wish to consider before posting' or 'subtle manipulations in the art of writing posts'. Yes, I know that was pathetic but I await more suggestions. -
Peace folks,
I havent read all the post on this thread but this new 'karma' applaud, smite thing creates wrong impression. Many folks judge the post/guy by the karma. Which leaves little room to ponder.
Salam
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Peace,
I believe the controversial topics which we all know about should be handled with moderated debates. Anyone opening new threads on them should be directed to existing threads for general discussion. If they believe they have something genuinely new then it can be entertained based on the assessment it gets.
I also think the more graphic emoticons like "Whatever" "Yeah Right" are meaningless and show a childish mentality to the user. I would personally remove them since I never use the complex ones and rarely even the simple ones. The only use they have for me is that, when I see them in posts after a long debate I know the other side has lost the battle mentally and I usually then take the foot off the pedal knowing that it's going to take some time for the person to get over their denial if they choose to listen to what's been presented. They have the option of continuing in the childish denial or examining the evidence more closely.
You'll see the "emoticon exit" regularly if you look for it - and know that the emoticon user is actually defeated.
The "Ive got nothing more to say to you" trick is also tired. When someone goes back on that pronouncement it shows them to be lacking in resolve. If you've turned your back on a topic then do so rather than continuously come back to it. A very funny example for me was the debate I recently had with Anwar regarding 'zihar' being a crime vs. it being a form of divorce. Anwar said at least twice that he was done with it, in a sense 'divorcing' the topic and yet returned to the topic immediately each time hoping that theirs would be the last word attempting to silence the truth. It was even funnier that it ended with an "emoticon exit".
Anyhow, I think the moderated debate idea is a good one, and they can be done in a special section leaving all the other stuff as it has been.
In the moderated debates I mean, the two sides would have a set of 5 questions for the other person which they post to the moderator before the debate takes place. The debate would then be kept to those issues with any interesting side issues which emerge being noted for a future debate, or an add on debate at the end. Keeping the debate focussed would help results to emerge.
Perhaps there can be a debate requests section where potential debaters can put up topics they want to debate other people on.
Regards.
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Peace savage_carrot,
I learnt my lesson, and will avoid threads that are too heated and argumentative to my taste...
Nabster -
Peace All,
Wow...you talk all nicey nicey and no one pays any mind. You threaten to change the furniture around and people come out of the woodwork! Unfortunately, I'm not so clever to have predicted this, but I am pleasantly surprised that so many are voicing their opinions.
Anyway, like I said, I was iffy about the idea to begin with but I still hope for some resolution to the dilemma as I see it. That is, the way productive, peaceful debates dissolve into the soup of non-productive mud-slinging debates.
There are countless threads where the posts are sort of inching along, and then some one drops a gem of a post on page 3 of 11. That valuable information gets lost in the pile. So, someone stopping by for a few moments to see what's going on may read through the first page, maybe even the second, but chances are they click off the thread to look for something useful and miss the post that may have helped them out.Perhaps a post-mortem copy&paste of decent posts is possible?
I liked the idea of moderated debates and was excited about the way so many were excited. But that seems to have fizzled out.
And I do like Oben's "debate requests" idea. Perhaps the thread can stay open until someone picks up the request, at which time it will be locked down and the stage would be set. We could even have tag-team matches!
But I still don't feel this addresses my concern, and maybe I'm alone on this, but there should be some way of filtering through the threads.
Peace,
Tay -
peace Tay,
I think the only thing we can do is that take the irrelevant parts of the thread out and put them in another section.
For example, we have a discussion going on about how fat Ronaldo actually is, and despite some very good posts, most posts start discussing whether Zidane should get hair transplant surgery. So the kind moderators can take the Zidane posts out and create another thread or another section all together, or take them to the trash if they resemble horse shit.
And I think posters, including myself, should stop posting off topic stuff and use PMs or create new threads. -
Peace
What I find hilarious is those who want to better the debate are the little band of "skeptics" phoenix1, truth et al.
Nabster ;D -
phoenix1, you take yourself too seriously, lighten up, and go for a nice walk by a lake, it will oxygenate your brain...
I am using a nice ionizer/fan that keeps me cool
btw i am not arguing with you -
Peace all,
Malboro, as I said before in another thread...it's nothing to get riled up about. Tomorrow, 10 people might think me subjective and start giving me negatives...and it's fine. If I knew who they were though on the other hand, heheh. It's somewhat easy to work out though
Nabster, don't feel too bad about what happened because if you check my really early posts I went through the same. I was picked on, bashed, made fun of and many other things that would break a lesser man I tell you! But due to my womanly nature, I was saved and the fact that along the way, the same posters that I felt were off, starting making sense to me in new and different ways. It didn't change my basic perception but I learnt to appreciate most all of them for what I learnt and keep learning from them.
Oben, I agree about the childish emoticons, but the thing is that some might think that their freedom of expression is being curtailed if those are taken off We don't use them, but maybe some feel the overwhelming need to utilise those to get their feelings across. I know about the recent debate, that was one of the examples I used for that point I made. Doubtless there are more and even I have been guilty of it on one occasion or two I think. I have noted down your ideas and will use these and others and try to come up with a decent proposal for the others (mod/admin) and see what they have to say.
Tay, indeed in droves and righteous fury! About taking stuff out that is considered a gem...hmm, suppose I could think about the best way to do something like that, it seems difficult though even post-mortem because it's meant to be on that thread and just taking it on a separate thread would mean that the pebbles might surround it again or that it would be a lonely post locked in confinement forevermore. Cleaning up threads creates a ruckus as you might have noticed, some take it as an insult (wasn't mine good enough for ya? why am I always picked on, huh? Oh you're being biased as hell thinking thats a gem and the plain and simple you suxx0rs!) and some just don't like curtailment of their 'freedom' to post on a particular thread as it's their right, by God! I think the hard way, that is sifting through the threads might be the only way unless someone can come up with a workable solution that is actually efficient to implement. I like the tag team matches, my weekend entertainment is all set! I am going to put these together and meditate on them, you never know, I might get a revelation on how to better some aspects.
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Peace all.
Good thread. I agree with a lot of what has been said in here. This may be a bit presumptuous but I think perhaps many people aren't really keen on logical fallacies.
I don't know how it is in other parts of the world but in the US (at least the places I went to school, California and Texas), you don't really learn about logical fallacies. There is no "critical thinking" class in middle school or high school. There is no "logic 101." There is simply English class (which is supposed to cover literature, reading comprehension, and critical thinking vis a vis the things you read) and, as an elective, Debate.
The US educational system, as we all know, has many flaws, but I think this is perhaps the biggest one. People aren't really taught to think critically. Now, I'm not trying to act like "darn kids these days" have it all wrong (I'm only 24) but I'm trying to point out that many don't have a formal education in logic the same way they do in science/math/language/etc.
So why does that matter? Certain fallacies in logic do take a keen eye to observe. I think generally, most posters here don't fall prey to the main fallacies in logic (circular reasoning, appeal to authority, begging the question, etc.) but there are some fallacies that are harder to spot. Even though the most learned person in formal logic makes fallacies; it's human nature.
I guess my point is we would be better off pointing out fallacies that we see in each others' posts before getting offended or upset. Many times, posters don't intend to make fallacies but unknowingly do so.
Instead of
A The rule on X must be _____ because thousands of years of continued practice and tradition can't be wrong.
B You're stupid and a disbeliever. Who do you put your faith in, Allah or your ancestors?Try to make it
A The rule on X must be _____ because thousands of years of continued practice and tradition can't be wrong.
B Well, we can discuss X on its merits but it cannot be right simply because many have and still do practice it. That is known as the appeal to common practice, and is a common fallacy in logic.Peace.
P.S. For a pretty decent list of some common logical fallacies, see http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
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peace savage_carrot
I am impressed and bow to your patience.
The reason I might be so self-righteous is a quirk of the profession I am in...
That being said I think arguing too much is not good for the soul )
As my faith goes, there is no way in the world it will be shaken by mickey mouse nonsensical interpretations ;D, I have seen enough in my long life not to be misled or carried away that easily.
Kind regards
Nabster -
Okay, here is a rough draft. They are good guidelines everyone can use for a better experience on the forum. Let me know if I should edit/add anything?
These are some general guidelines people might find helpful while posting, not only in getting their point across more effectively but also useful in having more constructive debates overall.
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Don?t set out to win or lose. The forum should not be taken as a contest but as a place to exchange views and learn from each other.
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We all learn something new everyday. This can change the way we perceive things, thus, it is not prudent to make our understanding of any given subject static but that it should be subject to change with more information.
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Even a wise man can learn something from a fool as the saying goes. Therefore, it behooves us to try and be humble while looking at different points of views to glean every last bit of information that we can to further our own understanding.
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We should think carefully about what we write and how we write it before posting. Well constructed posts go a long way in clarifying things and avoiding misunderstandings. Hasty and poorly constructed posts can have a detrimental impact on the point we are trying to get across. In other situations, if things get heated, we should take time to cool off and then post so that our posts are not emotionally charged.
-Some debating guidelines in particular would be
a) Avoid logical fallacies. Some people might be using them unknowingly so it would be preferable if when we see it is so, we try to acquaint them with the rules of good debate.
b) Any point a poster is trying to make should be backed up with facts whenever possible.
c) If debaters have approaches which are diametrically opposed to each other, it would most times result in a clash with no outcome except frustration. Thus, one should think carefully before debating to see if it is worthwhile. If this happens during a debate, one can agree to disagree and end it.
d) When thinking of debating emotionally charged topics (topics that are known to be sensitive issues), one may wish to only do so if they can remain calm/detached and deal with the issues in an intelligent and tactful manner.
e) Once our points are made and the debate seems to be going in circles, we should quit the debate.
f) Before starting a debate or posting to seek information, it would be advisable to use the search function as it might have been discussed before and there might not be any need to post or start a debate about it again.
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Peace All,
Phoenix, Nadia, and Mo,
Forgive me if I wasn't clear enough, but I by no means endorse editing, trimming, or changing, in any way, any of the threads. What I said was copy&paste. By this I meant, leave the thread intact, and copy the gems with the author's permission, and paste them to some sort of articles-type section besides the one that already exists.
I think the only thing we can do is that take the irrelevant parts of the thread out and put them in another section.
This is taboo, in my eyes.
I think posters, including myself, should stop posting off topic stuff and use PMs or create new threads.
Excellent reminder.
Cleaning up threads creates a ruckus as you might have noticed, some take it as an insult (wasn't mine good enough for ya? why am I always picked on, huh? Oh you're being biased as hell thinking thats a gem and the plain and simple you suxx0rs!) and some just don't like curtailment of their 'freedom' to post on a particular thread as it's their right, by God!
Very good points Nadia. Quite the dilemma we're in.
I think the hard way, that is sifting through the threads might be the only way unless someone can come up with a workable solution that is actually efficient to implement.
Honestly, the whole thing is starting to sound like a bad idea to me. Damn the newbies! Let them sift through for themselves voodoo
But if we go and start to edit and move, and change all sorts of posts and such... this no longer is a message board.. this type of ideas of moving and changing posts around are normal practice at many sunni boards.. which most here have run away from to begin with... think of it man...
I agree bro. I hope my clarification above has expressed this.
Why don't you go and make a book instead. Maybe take all the discussion which you feel are needed to be seen, and compile them, make a website of it etc...
That's an idea, but I was hoping to push all the work off on someone else. ;D
I understand your concern about getting the 'good' information seperated from the rest etc.
I'm glad you do, man. And I understand that you like things the way they are. I do too. I just wanted the face value of this website to be a bit more appealing in the sense of the resources it offers.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
I think you'd appreciate this story, if you haven't heard it before ;D
Ritual Cat
When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice.