GROUNDBREAKING QURANIC FINDING!!!

unknownuser

Hey Anwar

I have been very busy bro, but will invistigate later, just a quick question bro, is there any 5 letters roots in Arabic and if there is can you give us a couple of examples?

cheers

progod

You know they are really rare. They only go up to 4 letters mostly and then if they have an alif in front of them they are only derivatives of the four letter roots examples

taw, meem, hamza, noon (tawm-ah-na)
alif, taw, meem, hamza, noon (it-ma-ah-nna)

Iqsha&arra.

But franqa&a is a root that is 5 letters.

fa, ra, noon, qaf, &ain. It means 'to go a way, to get out'. (Ifranqa&a)

This is the only one that I can remember. My teacher told me this one.

Godbless,
Anwar

unknownuser

Thanks bro

How about "Izdahar", "Ikhtasha"?

cheers

progod

Your welcome,

No these do not have 5 letters in their roots. Izdahara comes from zahara and is the form ifti&aal. The taa changes to a 'da' because of the zaa. Same with ikhtashaa, it is from khashaya an is the form ifti&aal as well.

So you do you have no opinion or any other questions on the ground-breaking topic?

Godbless,
Anwar

unknownuser

Your welcome,

No these do not have 5 letters in their roots. Izdahara comes from zahara and is the form ifti&aal. The taa changes to a 'da' because of the zaa. Same with ikhtashaa, it is from khashaya an is the form ifti&aal as well.

So you do you have no opinion or any other questions on the ground-breaking topic?

Godbless,
Anwar

Peace Anwar

Mate Izdahar has nothiinthing to do with flowering, it actually means "Blossomed", for example we can say the business Izdahar, i.e. the gusiness blossomed, WE CAN SAY THE BUSINESS AZHAR, it makes no sense

see why there 5 letters root, to diffrentiat between words that almost have the same letters

bro I have my arabic grammar book and I gor this example from it, I'm no manipulator bro

I will photo copy the lage and post it on monday Inshallah

for Ikhtasha, again the Ta is vital to make this 5 letters root with a titally different meaning to Ikhsha

another example is Igtamaa, the two is required to give the meaninfg that someone had a meeting with others, if you say Igmaa with that Ta then it means somthing else wich is to collect

see how the root differntiate the words meaning so confusing does not arise

for your thread I will try to have another look bro, sorry I nget bored quick and I have zillio0ns of things to do but you can aske me any further questiion on a PM I guess I still have one PM to reply to you, sorry

Salam

Samia

Salaam all

I'm guessing that either you guys agree with me, are thinking about it or just don't want to deal with the issue. It could be any of the three but I would appreciate an honest answer like "I'm not ready to deal with that" or "I just can't agree" or "it make sense" . . .

Godbless,
Anwar

My apologies. my honest answer is that there are two issues in your post grammatical and sementical. I have no problem with the the latter (if you mean a hot shahr). It is the formal I am trying to deal with.

Isti'daadan huwa jayyidun

or

Huwa isti'daadan jayyidun

or

huwa jayyidun isti'daadan.
Al-Yawmu jameelun jawwan

or

al-yawmu jawwan jameelun

In all these examples (they are actually two main ones) the adjective i (jayyid; jameel) is in the nominative (marfouu3), whereas we have in your control sentence (rammadana) in the accusative "manSuub). If you think that I still do not get it, can you please give me your translation (one literal and one meaaningful) for "shahrun ramadana"?

Salaam Ahmed

Mate Izdahar has nothiinthing to do with flowering, it actually means "Blossomed",

Do you really mean that or there is a typo?

for Ikhtasha,...........another example is Igtamaa

Do you notice a pattern in these three verbs (the third being izdahara)? I think you mix between pattern and root. Verbs (and words ingeneral) derived from the same root have different patterns and do not mean exactly the same meaning, but their meaning is related to the meaning of the root. E.g

jama3a to collect; ijtama3a to meet; tajamma3a to gather, jamme3 all; tajammu3 gathering; jam3iyya group-organization; mujtama3 society; jum3a gathering. Root for all the above words (and maybe more) ja ma 3a, giving the meaning of plural, or more than one.

unknownuser

Salaam Ahmed

Mate Izdahar has nothiinthing to do with flowering, it actually means "Blossomed",

Do you really mean that or there is a typo?

Salam Samia

There was a typo for sure however yes I mean Izdahara means blosom, Azhar means to flower, we can say the economy izdaharit but we can't say the economy azharit

That is why we have 5 letters root "Masddar" that will be the origin of some words

i.e. the masddar for the noun "Izdihaar" is the past tense 5 letters root "Izdahara"

same with Igtamaa

for Ikhtasha,...........another example is Igtamaa

Do you notice a pattern in these three verbs (the third being izdahara)?

yeh sure, it is called wazn and all 5 letters root musddars are on the same wazn

I think you mix between pattern and root.

no i'm not, it can't be while I was taught arabic since I was a baby, any arabic word even root has pattern "wazn"

Verbs (and words ingeneral) derived from the same root have different patterns and do not mean exactly the same meaning, but their meaning is related to the meaning of the root. E.g

never heard of that really, but I know this is just an easy entry to the non arabic speakers who want to learn Arabic, the Arabic language is far deeper than this flawed root method that you guys make every word as a three letters root and from that you drive the meaning, total non sense if you ask me

jama3a to collect; ijtama3a to meet; tajamma3a to gather, jamme3 all; tajammu3 gathering; jam3iyya group-organization; mujtama3 society; jum3a gathering. Root for all the above words (and maybe more) ja ma 3a, giving the meaning of plural, or more than one.

So?, the above does not change the fact that the noun Igtimaa "Meeting" is driven from the the 5 root past tense masddar "Igtamaa"

Salam

progod

Ahmed,

Your argument about the difference between flower and blossom is pointless. Sometimes you can't translate things literally and litterally izdahara means 'it flowered' but it makes better sense to say 'it blossomed' in English.

You are confusing form and root. wazn is form and jadhr is root. izdahara is of the root zahara and is of the form ifta&ala. You may have learned Classical Arabic since a baby but you are mistaken about this Classical Arabic concept and it seems you have confused root and form. The forms are related by not the same. Samia, started explaining that to you and it is best if I let her explanations suffice here. She has also been speaking Arabic since she was a baby.

Samia,

Take the sentences that I gave you as examples to help it fit grammatically, and take in mind that modern langauge sometimes finds archaic langauge difficult, as well as phrases that have never been heard before by the listener or reader.

take the sentences

huwa jayyid isti&daadan

now go to

huwa fee &aamin isti&daadan fa nahnu sa-najma&u kulla &itaadinaa lidifaa&i

Think of it as poetic language. Even though the Quran says it is not poetry understand that poetry in the old sense has nothing to do with rhyme or rythm but whether or not it was for entertainment.

Godbless,
Anwar

unknownuser

Bro Anwar

sorry bro, I have no time to watse on this subject anymore, as I stated I will photocopy the page about the Masddars from the grammar book I have and post it in here and you will see in there that there are 6 letters Masddars as well

Salam

progod

God bless,

I'm done too. I've told you what it really is and you don't want to listen to me. So, go ask some well-known Arabic profressor if you don't want to believe me.

God bless again,
Anwar

unknownuser

Cheers bro

let's discuss something else man, I will still post the imgages form the book, I just need to scan it first

I will also post who are the authors and their background

cheers

Samia

Salaam all

Bro Anwar

you will see in there that there are 6 letters Masddars as well

Salam

Of course there are, and even 7 letters ones!
You were mixing between verb pattern and root, now you are mixing between maSdar (verbal noun) and root. These are 3 distinctive things.

Progod

I asked you, not for more examples, but to please apply your examples to the verse, i.e. write the verse as you understand it (by substitution) and then expalin it, so that I unserstand fully what you mean and my response can be based on that, with my thanks.

unknownuser

Salaam all

Bro Anwar

you will see in there that there are 6 letters Masddars as well

Salam

Of course there are, and even 7 letters ones!
You were mixing between verb pattern and root, now you are mixing between maSdar (verbal noun) and root. These are 3 distinctive things.

Salam Samia

please Samia, your english definition have no meaning to me, I only taught the Masaddar, all the other tings you named in english never heard of it unless you provide the equivelent name in arabic

also there was never 7 letters massdar in that book

Salam

Samia

Salam Samia

please Samia, your english definition have no meaning to me, I only taught the Masaddar, all the other tings you named in english never heard of it unless you provide the equivelent name in arabic

also there was never 7 letters massdar in that book

Salam

Salaam Ahmed

I think we already know root (jidhr) and pattern (wazn) as mentioned in one of Progod's posts. Now I put the English equivalent of maSdar (verbal noun) between brackets, not for you, but for those who are not native speakers and are learning Arabic in English. You may ignore the English translation of the technical terms.

The second part of your question What about istiqlaal (independence) and all maSdars of this wazn (pattern)? If your book says there are no 7 letters maSdars, I would not trust it if I were you.

unknownuser

Salam Samia

please Samia, your english definition have no meaning to me, I only taught the Masaddar, all the other tings you named in english never heard of it unless you provide the equivelent name in arabic

also there was never 7 letters massdar in that book

Salam

Salaam Ahmed

Salam Samia

I think we already know root (jidhr) and pattern (wazn) as mentioned in one of Progod's posts.

Excuse me sister, the Gazr and Wazn has nothing to do with the origin of the word, the Gazr is never taught at schiils and have no meaning in Native Arabic speakers countries, we only taught the Wazn and the Masddar

now do you lnow what Masddar means in Arabic?

it mean "the origin" i.e. the origin of the owrd, for example

Igtimaa has a Masddar of of 5 letters that is Igtmaa

and the Masddar "The origin or the word" is the one that is used to figure the meaning and that is what we are taught at Arabic schools

for me this Gazr thingy is a flawed invention that only cause confusion and makes all the words the same bloody meaning if they have the same 2 letters Gaze for example someone like simple thinks the following

ghanam which is sort of the Lamb means Aghnaam which are the things collected in a war after victory

why he thought thatand totally manipuklated the Quran?, because he used the flawed and un merited Gazr "root" thingy and sure he has to get confused because the two words have the same three letters Gazr "Gh N M"

I have zillions of examples

so your insistance and many like you to use this Gazr method to figure the words meanings only show your ignorance with the arabic language

The second part of your question What about istiqlaal (independence) and all maSdars of this wazn (pattern)? If your book says there are no 7 letters maSdars, I would not trust it if I were you.

Istiqlaal has a 5 letters Masddar with a shadda on the Lam, virtually 6 letters Masddar and it is "Istqll"

Salam

unknownuser

Sister samia

I checked the book and sorry to tell you that the Masddars are only 3 to 6 letters, wait till I scan that page and post it in here then you can respond to it and show us where the two senior Arabic language professors got it wrong

I'm sorry I don't have a scanner handy as typing it will defeat the authenticity purpose that I'm not faking it, as well I don't have time to type it really

one page will explain every thing to you regarding the Masddars and how they work

the professors put in a tree like shape and you follow it through the branches

now I know where the confusion is coming from

i thought those root advocates mean that it is the Masddar all alonge up to this moment

I was only talking about the Masddars thinking that this is what you mean by the roots, because the Masddar is the origin of the word in Arabic NOT the root

Salam

progod

Ahmed I understand your misunderstanding of the word masdar, but let me explain it to you.

Masdar can means 'origin' but that is not what it means in Arabic grammar. it means the verbal noun. It is what istiqlaalun(as sister Samia said) is to istaqalla.

Now the Jadh-r, or as you call it the Gazr, is not a thingy. And it might not have been taught in your school but that does not mean that it is not valid, just because you don't know about it.

Gazr or Jadh-r has everything to do with the meanig of the word and you honestly should review some Classical Arabic grammar books before you continue with this discussion.

Secondly the wazn is what you are talking about more. the change from zahar to azhara, to zaa-hara, to tazahh-ara to izdahara is a matter of wazn, not masdar. I just want you to know that you are really taking away from your credibility the more that you argue things that are known and understood and then call what you don't know irrevelant thingies. I mean your not presenting a different way that you were taught you are just invalidating what you don't know. Truthfully, Ahmed, that is not acceptable.

Godbless,
Anwar

Samia

Here's the verse in transliteration. I'm going to use English punctuation (like what's used now sometimes in Arabic to help you understand the structure of the sentence. My words are in italics.

Shahru ramadana allathee onzila feehi alquranu

Shahrun, ramadaanan, alladhee unzila feehi al-quraanu

hudan lilnnasi wabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqani

irshaadan lil-bashari bimubayyinaatin min hudaallaahi wa bi-fawaariqa

faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu

faman yashida minkum shah-ran kal-&alawaa' fa-yanbaghee an yasooma feehi

waman kana mareedan aw AAala safarin faAAiddatun min ayyamin okhara

wa man yakun mareedan aw huwa musaafirun fa nafsil-iddati min al-ayyaam lam yasoom feehaa fee maa ba&d

yureedu Allahu bikumu alyusra wala yureedu bikumu alAAusra

yureedu Allaaha al-suhoolati bi-amoorikum wa laa assu&oobatu bihaa

walitukmiloo alAAiddata

fa, ikmaloo al-&idaata al-madhkoorata

walitukabbiroo Allaha AAala ma hadakum walaAAallakum tashkuroona

Wa kabbiroo allaaha hasba mahmaa yurshidukum bihi wa la&allakum tashkuroona

I hope that helped, finally.

Godbless,
Anwar

Samia

Shahru ramadana allathee onzila feehi alquranu

Shahrun, ramadaanan, alladhee unzila feehi al-quraanu

I think we are having a problem here. I understand that (correct me if I am wrong) shahrun ramadaanan here is in the indefinite. Why, then, is it followed by the pronoun (alladhee)? You know this is not acceptable in Arabic grammar nor is it used in the qur'aan.

As I previously mentioned, I am not discussing the meaning, but I want to reach a grammatically sound sentence so that it fits the meaning.

progod

God bless,

I know that this is rear in Modern Standard but it is not that rare in Old Classical Arabic. I will give you some examples. Just first understand that shah-run ramadaanan is not saying any month it is specifically a month that has to do with heat. It is if I were to say in English 'a month, having to do with heat, is the one in which the Quran was revealed. . .'

I'll give you some more examples, but you should look for them also to confirm what I am saying.

Godbless,
Anwar

progod

Peace,

I no longer believe that shahru ramadana means shahrun ramadanan, nor do i continue to believe that ramadan has to do with heat as it concerns the name of the lunar month, even if at one time it did.