Djenna & Gehenna; explanation

unknownuser

Peace,

Peace

AB, i believe in jahannam, but not in the traditional approach.

Bro my question was simple, is Jahannam REAL or NOT?, please give me one word answer

The reason I'm asking is simply obvious, I'm setting a trap to you, see how honest I'm

I do believe it is a state of agony which will be felt when they are confronted with the truth.

So Jahannam for you is NOT REAL, just something we will suffer in the thoughts, right?

As for jahannam. Where do you think the name came from?

From Allah via the Quran

Why God uses the term Jahannam?

Well you mat ask Him that question on the JD, I don't talk on His behalf, but let me ask you first why you parents called you Arnold?

The definition didn't come out of the air,

Sure, it came form Allah in the Quran and He described it in great details, I'm making a a movie about Jahannam actually, I'm making especially for you, I guess I should say you inspired me to make it, will take me some time though

it was an already known parable in the middle east.

Really?, well if so, then so?

And didn't you read my article where i quoted the verse that says the earth will be created a new? Yes, i see the parable talking about the whole verse.

Bro I only read Quran verses and its comments, if they are burried in long article that sound blasphemy to me, I won't really read it unless you want to discuss that specific verse you are talking about, but hey if the earth will be created new as you just said, how do you now that Jueresalam will be there?

This parable is compared
The Paradise's allegory which the fearing and obeying were promised in it, (is) rivers from water not stagnant , and rivers from milk, its taste did not change, and rivers from wine/all intoxicants, (it is a) delight/pleasure to the drinking , and rivers from purified/strained honey/molasses , and for them in it (are) from all the fruits, and forgiveness from their Lord,
With this parable
as/like who he is immortal/eternal in the fire , and they were made to drink hot/cold water , so it cut off/severed their intestines/guts.

and how about the other million verses "expression" that tells us the opposite of what you say, are you gonna walk us through to guide us on that new concept or you want to leave that to me?

I know you don't agree with me AB,

of course if you suggest something that clearly contradict the Quran in zillions of locations "expression" then I have to disagree with you, I will go to hell if I agree to you and I really don't want to get burnt, but hey of you say something that make sense and does not contradict the quran then there is no reaosn for me not to agree with you

your approach is different then mine.

Even with that, don't you think that we should reach the same final result as both of us claim to believe in the very same book?

You cannot stay professional and always give personal comments which is disturbing the discussion to be objective and productive.

well I expect that some one like you and a few others will say as such, no surprise indeed, but you should also know that there are many that think the opposite of you and the likes of you

So i'll not answer you, except when i see something productive to discuss in your posts.

Of course this is your right and won't upset me really I do the same with a few, however I hope you reserve you right to expose my Quran ignorance to the public when needed exactly as I'm going to do to you

Peace

Peace Arnold

CavemanDoctor

Peace AB

How do you define "real?" Are only physical locations real to you? I don't understand why you keep asking this question.

Are your emotions real? Are your thoughts real? Why does Jahannam have to be a physical place to be "real?"

unknownuser

Peace AB

Peace bro

How do you define "real?"

anything made by Allah that I can see with my eyes

Are only physical locations real to you?

well, If Allah told me in the Quran that a place is a physical location, then that location must be real

I don't understand why you keep asking this question.

Because what Arnols is suggesting and cheered for contradict the Quran because the Quran confirms 100% that Jahannam is real and we will see it with our own eyes and not just the heart that will suffer rather many parts of the human body, this alone makes Arnold argum,ent a joke,

His concept is very old though nothing new, he just fine tuned it using the Quran to mkae it look beautiful for the Muslims

now it will be my turn to prove that Jahannam is for real

Are your emotions real?

'm not discussing emmotions here, I'm discussing "jahhanam is real or not" and I donlt tgake perosnla insights really, I only take the Quran as evidences

Are your thoughts real?

Again bro, I'm not discussing thoughts here, I'm discussing "jahhanam is real or not" and I donlt tgake perosnla insights really, I only take the Quran as evidences

Why does Jahannam have to be a physical place to be "real?"

Because Allah described physically to us in great details

now for Arnoils to use tehe word Mathal in that verse to claim that Jahannam is a metaphor is a clear cut case of ignorance and I will have a surprise for him later,

Salam

CavemanDoctor

Peace AB

Maybe I misspoke. I know you're not talking about emotions and thoughts but I asked those rhetorical questions to point to you that "real" isn't just what you see with your eyes.

Why do you restrict reality to such a narrow meaning? So if you don't see something with your eyes, its not real? If you hear a bird chirping, the chirping is not real cause you cant see it? Are you seriously suggesting such a thing?

Arnold's point isnt that Jahannam isn't real. He just doesnt have such a narrow view of reality as you. He doesnt restrict reality to whatever the human eye can perceive.

You act as if Jahannam being a state of mind and Jahannam being real are mutually exclusive. Why can't it be both? Why does mental state = fake, to you?

If I'm experiencing pain, is that not real? Why does real have to be a place?
If I'm experiencing joy, is that not real? Why does real have to be a place?
If I'm being conscious of my Creator, if I'm praying to my Creator, if I'm thanking my Creator, are these thoughts of mine not real? Why does real have to be a place?

I hope I've made myself clear. I'm not trying to sound mean but I thought this would be common sense reality isnt merely what one can see, or what one can physically step foot on. Reality is many things. Interpreting the Qur'an in a way that suggests Jahannam isn't a physical place doesnt mean that one is calling Jahannam fake, or that one is doubting Allah's words, or that one is trying to make things "beautiful for Muslims."

unknownuser

Peace AB

Peace bro

Maybe I misspoke. I know you're not talking about emotions and thoughts but I asked those rhetorical questions to point to you that "real" isn't just what you see with your eyes.

Or told by Allah that it exists for real, I will take Allah words over all humans including prophets

Why do you restrict reality to such a narrow meaning?

I don?t restrict reality neither I manipulate it nor I fear it, what baffles me that Allah was clear as light in the Quran that Hell is for real, now I may ask you

Why you manipulate Allah words?

So if you don't see something with your eyes, its not real?

Or Allah told me about it in the Quran and I have not seen it, IT MUST BE REAL, i.e. all the stories of the past told by Allah in His Quran MUST BE REAL and I never saw it nor I will.

If you hear a bird chirping, the chirping is not real cause you cant see it? Are you seriously suggesting such a thing?

Not really, it is you tryin to be a bit clever with me, well I?m not talking about a bird here however to respond to your Tom and Jerry argument, yeh if I hear a chirping of a bird then I may think of the following

it is a real bird (because I have seen birds before doing the same thing)
my neighbour is watching a movie with a bird chirping in it (he had the volume on high)
my other neighbour is playing a CD with a bird chirping in it (she had the volume on high)
some one driving by with massive loud stereo in his car and playing a cd with a bird chirping in it
my neighbour kids are playing birds voices

come on bro, that was a very Tommy argument, we are talking about HELL bro, a serious matter that me and you will see it with our own eyes for real, hope me and you will not enter it for one second otherwise our skin will melt and Allah will replace it with new skin then will melt then will be replaced and so on, this is real agony bro , NOW ALLAH TOLD US THAT IT EXISTS FOR REAL, and according to my simple rule

Allah witness overwrites any human witness therefore

Allah witness overwrites Arnold witness

see

1 + 1 = 2

Arnold's point isnt that Jahannam isn't real. He just doesnt have such a narrow view of reality as you. He doesnt restrict reality to whatever the human eye can perceive.

I?d rather be narrow minded then and not a clear cut manipulative to Allah words, the likes of Arnold are described clearly in the Quran, it is those who say lies about Allah that He never said, and they are doomed, now let the open mind help them on the JD when they see the hell for real with their own eyes, THIS IS WHAT ALLAH SAID NOT ME, but sorry I forgot that you take the humans witness over/along your God witness

You act as if Jahannam being a state of mind and Jahannam being real are mutually exclusive.

Of course it is , this is what the Quran said exactly

Why can't it be both?

Because Allah only said it is one

Now if I take both, one from Allah and one from Arnold, don?t you think THIS IS A CLEAR CUT CASE OF SHIRK?

I?m not a mushrik nor I will be because I know that the SHIRK IS ZANBUN AZIM

Why does mental state = fake, to you?

I?m not saying mental state is fake, in fact I know that part of Jahanaam torture will be mental, what I?m saying is, it is also physical along with the mental, in fact the physical punishment that was described in details by Allah is far more, this is enough to cause severe mental punishment.

But Arnold is saying that it is ONLY mental and will only be felt in the heart and Allah never said that, even if Arnold says that he accepts what Allah said about Jahanaam but he considers the possibility that it may be as such then he committed shirk.

If I'm experiencing pain, is that not real?

Bro, I don?t like these sort of questions, you can discuss it with many philosophers here, you are talking with the wrong person

However I will try to answer it, you forgot that part of the punishment is many dialogues that will happen between the hell dwellers and the Hell Angels as well between the Hell dwellers and the garden dwellers, how this can be mental only?

Also Allah told us that the skin will be replaced many times, again how this will be mental?,

do you think that we will be just dead bodies going through nightmares?

Well, that is what mister Arnold is implying like the Kafiroon exactly who could not comprehend that Allah will resurrect them for real, so they said it will never happen, with mister Arnold however he put in a smart way that it will never happen and we will be like asleep going through dreams

Haha, there is no much difference between his concept and the kafiroon concept, he was just clever to use the quran with it.

Why does real have to be a place?

How many times you asked the question in different ways bro?, but this time you put it in a way that does not make sense ? Why does real have to be a place??, hmmmm, ok can you please ask it in another way?, cheers and excuse my English if the question was put smartly and I didn?t get it

If I'm experiencing joy, is that not real? Why does real have to be a place?
If I'm being conscious of my Creator, if I'm praying to my Creator, if I'm thanking my Creator, are these thoughts of mine not real? Why does real have to be a place?

Ok now you are going to ask me the same questions about Heaven, well the same for hell apply, cheers

I hope I've made myself clear. I'm not trying to sound mean but I thought this would be common sense

No, no you were not mean, I hope I?m not mean either, now what makes sense is NOT TAKING A HUMAN WORD ALONG WITH ALLAH WORDS AS THIS IS CLEAR CUT SHIRK, thanks

reality isnt merely what one can see, or what one can physically step foot on. Reality is many things. Interpreting the Qur'an in a way that suggests Jahannam isn't a physical place doesnt mean that one is calling Jahannam fake, or that one is doubting Allah's words, or that one is trying to make things "beautiful for Muslims."

Exactly, it is called SHIRK, here it is again in points

Allah says Jahanaam is for real after we will be resurrected, i.e. there is physical fire, and even a whole community living in there that communicate together, Allah also says many parts in our bodies will feel the pain
Arnold says Jahanaam is for real but only as thoughts in the heart, i.e. no physical fire and only the heart will feel the pain, it implies no resurrection indeed

Now those who will believe in both as a possibility MUST BE MISHRIKOON, because they took a human word along with Allah word while that human having no authority for that

AND AGAIN ?INA AL SHIRK LA ZANBUN AZIM

Salam

arnoldyasin

peace,

AB, i do believe in the resurrection. If you would have taken some time you would have read that, next time be carefull with your lying accusations. Your so busy with attacking you got half wrong.

unknownuser

peace,

AB, i do believe in the resurrection. If you would have taken some time you would have read that, next time be carefull with your lying accusations. Your so busy with attacking you got half wrong.

Arnold, I said it IMPLIES

thanks

Navid

Peace ab,

It seems to me that you're contradicting yourself, or maybe you made a mistake in your definition of "real."

Earlier you stated your definition

anything made by Allah that I can see with my eyes

Don't take offense to this. I know you believe in God, but isn't God unseen? Does that mean He's not real? What about Jinns? Are they not real?

I know you believe in God/Jinns/etc., so I don't understand why your definition would be that. Just trying to help you out. Don't take offense. I promise I'm not the enemy of Islam.

Peace

arnoldyasin

Peace,

AB, you ended with 'this implies no resurrection indeed'. This is the biggest nonsense and shows you don't understand a molecule of what my article said. I have even written a scientifical approach to the Afterlife which proves there are natural laws of resurrection. How can it even come close to 'imply'? i recommend you stop the baseless implying as it only destroys your credibility.

I belief jahannam is a state of mind which is already in working progress now as it is implied by this verse

3919 On the other hand, he who has inevitably deserved suffering can you save someone who is already consumed in the Fire?

But whoso has been blind in this world shall be blind in the world to come, even farther astray from the path.

So if you would take the Quran so literaly, does this mean then that the above tells us that the blind people now on earth also will be blind in the next? And do you see the rejectors burning already?

This state of agony and illusion will go on after the resurrection as told in my article. And i approach the verses on skin differently as 'skin' has multiple meanings. I approach the Quran with a philosophical and scientific background, so i see the words that are used with a different view then you. You have misunderstood my article and try to twist some things to slander with your 'implying'.

If your quest was to show my conclusions are wrong and to save me from my straying you would have used different words. But you immediatly start to scream 'blasphemy' and 'kafiroen' and even 'shirk'. If you really would be interrested in spreading the truth you wouldn't have used those words, but would have adressed me in a normal way and corrected me in a polite manner. For a mature man you handled things in a childish manner.

You abuse the Quranic warnings to make people 'kafir' based on your judgement and your view of the Quran. God will question you on this, as only God knows what is in the hearts, and is the only Judge. To say i will go to Jahannam is saying you know the Unseen, the future, this is blasphemy.

unknownuser

Peace ab,

Peace OM

It seems to me that you're contradicting yourself, or maybe you made a mistake in your definition of "real."

well, let's see

Earlier you stated your definition

anything made by Allah that I can see with my eyes

Don't take offense to this. I know you believe in God, but isn't God unseen? Does that mean He's not real? What about Jinns? Are they not real?

Haha, nice try bro, I'm damn accurate and my comment was put smartly

now, did Allah made himself?

no so Alla is exclkuded from my statement because you only believe that He exists for real

nice try bro, my statement was concering the objects like me and you and sun that is created by Allah

I know you believe in God/Jinns/etc., so I don't understand why your definition would be that. Just trying to help you out. Don't take offense. I promise I'm not the enemy of Islam.

Peace

for the Jinn, again Allah told us the he creatred them and Allah witness is enough for me to take them as real, if a human told me that nont Allah then I will tell them to gugger off

Salam

CavemanDoctor

Peace AB

I ask you why Jahannam can't be real and a mental state at the same time (i.e. why does "real" have to mean a physical location?) and your response is that Allah said it cant be both, and that it is only one. Now who is putting words in Allah's mouth? Maybe I've missed the verse. Is there a verse that says "Jahannam is a physical place, and not a mental state" or something similar? Can you point out a verse to me that says Jahannam has to be physical and nothing else? You see, you're using your preconceived notions of Allah's words.

Just because you paste Allah's words and say the words mean X, doesnt mean X is Allah's words. X is just your interpretation of Allah's words. Similarly, others (who you vehemently disagree with) use those very same Allah's words and interpret them as Y. And yet you say they're making up their own words while you're only relying on Allah's words.

You yourself are not above subjective impressions, preconceived notions, and biased interpretations. I think, the sooner you realize that, the better off these discussions will be.

The argument I was making about the bird chirping wasn't mean to be "clever" or "tom and jerry." I was making a very serious point, a point that I thought would be common sense "real" isnt just what you can see. I'm not going to beat around the bush. Thinking "reality" is only what we can see with the human eye is simply one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life. Sounds you hear, feelings you have, all these things that the human eye cannot perceive, are not real? I simply cannot understand how anyone can claim such a thing.

Similarly, it is possible that Allah uses imagery (imagery that the human mind can comprehend) to speak about things that we (in our limited experience) cannot possibly comprehend. Not everything is literal. This isnt me changing Allah's words or doubting Allah. This is me simply using the brain that Allah gave me. I have the humility to realize that my Creator is Transcendent and Infinite, and that His knowledge surpasses my own and that, for the sake of human understanding, He has painted the message about certain things in metaphorical terms, in human imagery. This is completely possible. Nay, it is probable. How does one explain the taste of chocolate to one who has never even seen it?

Very clearly, Allah has spoken in metaphorical terms before; I don't see why this is any different. Does not Allah sit on His Throne (Arsh, 3975)? Is that literal? Is that "real?" Do you honestly think that Allah (the Creator of the Universe) sits on a physical chair? I'm sure you don't. I'm sure you see that as a metaphor for God's power and Sovereignty, just as we all do. Why is this any different? Why does "fire" have to be a physical fire? Why can't "fire" be like that throne that Allah speaks about?

If you say that Allah does not sit on a physical throne, I can respond in kind So you don't think the Throne is "real" ? Are you saying Allah lied? Are you doubting Allah's words? etc. etc.

Why is this any different?

unknownuser

Brother cavemandoctor, i will respond to you later today, I have to go to work, running late already.

I haven't read it yet, sorry

Cheers

CavemanDoctor

Peace AB, no worries.

unknownuser

Peace,

Peace bro

AB, you ended with 'this implies no resurrection indeed'. This is the biggest nonsense and shows you don't understand a molecule of what my article said.

Cool, make me understand then if you care, if you don't care then I will keep asking questions and you can ignore it

I have even written a scientifical approach to the Afterlife which proves there are natural laws of resurrection. How can it even come close to 'imply'? i recommend you stop the lying implications as it only destroys your credibility.

So we will be walking around, some are tortured in the heart and others are joyful in the heart, while nothing in the outside causes that but thoughts in the mind, right?

I belief jahannam is a state of mind

Now, did Allah say that?

which is already in working progress now as it is implied by this verse

3919 On the other hand, he who has inevitably deserved suffering can you save someone who is already consumed in the Fire?

(19)

-> I don?t get what you are saying regarding 3919, well, 3919 also confirms that the hell is real not state of mind as you are conjectruring, also the translation is flawed the words ?Consumed already? do not exist in the Arabic text, it should be as follow ? can you save someone who is in the Fire??, ? ?

But whoso has been blind in this world shall be blind in the world to come, even farther astray from the path.

(72)

So if you would take the Quran so literaly, does this mean then that the above tells us that the blind people now on earth also will be blind in the next?

The verse is clearly a metaphor regarding the vision in this life NOT THE HELL FIRE, so for me to take it literally I have to take it as a metaphor at least for the first part because the first part of being blind on earth doesn?t apply to all the kafirron on earth, but I prefer to take the last part as not a metaphor and they will be blind for real, now please tell me what that has to do with the hell being real or thoughts of mind?

The reason I said I prefer to take the last part as real because Allah clearly told us what those blind kafirron will say to Him on the JD after they are raised blind for real

124- And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.

125- He will say O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?

(124)
(125)

-> The above verse clearly and irrefutably tell us that the first part of 1772 is a metaphor ?Blind on Earth? and the second part is real ?Blind on the JD?, this is obvious from the kafir questioning Allah ? O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)??

And do you see the rejectors burning already?

Did 3919 say that they are burning already or it is you? Again the word already never existed in the Arabic text, this verse has no time frame indeed, it is Allah telling Mohammad that he will not be able to save those destined to the hell fire, past, present and future verbs do not apply on Allah mister

This state of agony and illusion will go on after the resurrection as told in my article.

And we will be walking around like under drugs and nothing in the vicinity around us ?I mean no real hell or real fire? and no angels, right?

And i approach the verses on skin differently as 'skin' has multiple meanings.

Oh please don?t tell me that the skin means heart, just kiddin, however I expect these sort of things to come from you

I approach the Quran with a philosophical and scientific background,

This maybe good for you, but why you think it will be good for others? Can you please show me a verse in the Quran that support your stand with the Quran?

so i see the words that are used with a different view then you. You have misunderstood my article and try to twist some things to slander with your 'implications'.

Well, then explain to me how the hell we will be resurrected and walking around while there is no real hell or garden and yet some will be happy and some will be tormented?, for example Allah told us that our sexual desires will be not restricted in the heaven this means we will have sex in the heaven so we will be walking around thinkinh of having sex and enjoying it? we will look like idiots bro

If your quest was to show my conclusions are wrong and to save me from my straying you would have used different words.

Not really bro, It is not my job to save you nor to save others, Allah is the one who will save you, me and others, I only have to do what I have to do and clearly I only talk literal Quran not philosophy. if a verse or part of it sounds irrefutably a metaphor then to take it literally I have to take that part as a metaphor because the literal meaning of a metaphor is a metaphor

But you immediatly start to scream 'blasphemy' and 'kafiroen' and even 'shirk'.

Well, well, well, so the Quran aloners are screaming for years the sunni and shia are mushrikoon, in which I agree to a degree with them, so why they can?t take the same criticism back?, well, if you see that I?m a mushrik, please let me know, I would really appreciate it if you make me aware of it

And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).

(106)

Please tell me, whom do you think the above verse apply to?

If you really would be interrested in spreading the truth you wouldn't have used those words,

I?m not really interested in spreading the truth, you got this wrong, the truth is widely spread in a book called Quran, it is the people who use it falsely, my mission is to expose the false and to do that I have to automatically spread the truth but because my mission is to expose the false, my style will be different than a mission to spread the truth. There is a lot in stake here, it is either hell or garden for eternity. Not an insight and a few cheers even if that insight is flawed. We can?t do that bro, we can?t play with Allah words as we wish, you think I?m challenging you personally, however think not, because I don?t know you at all, I?m only challenging the false claims you promote, now please have a look at the following few verses where I will present 2 strong points, one of them is the surprise I promised for you earlier

9- O Prophet! strive hard against the kuffar and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.

10- Allah citeth an example for those who disbelieve the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot, who were under two of Our righteous slaves yet betrayed them so that they (the husbands) availed them naught against Allah and it was said (unto them) Enter the Fire along with those who enter.

11- And Allah sets forth an example to those who believe the wife of Firon when she said My Lord! build for me a house with Thee in the garden and deliver me from Firon and his doing, and deliver me from the unjust people

(9)
(10)
(11)

-> The first point, we read the following said by Allah to Mohammad ? strive hard against the kuffar and the hypocrites, and be hard against them?, now why Allah tell Mohammad to ? ?, ? and be hard against them?? well, it means to me that we have a serious matter in hand, you may say but the message is about the kuffar and the hypocrites and you are not one of them, well, I say what you say always make me believe that you are one of them and I?m proving this using the Quran, the matter of the fact however that I don?t wish you to be one of them.

-> The second point, you used the Arabic word ?Mathal? in the Paradise verse to inject a new concept that Jahnaam and Heaven are only metaphors, what you missed is this the word ?Mathal? does not always mean a metaphor, in fact it means only ?An Example?, the context will be the only factor to determine if it is used for a metaphor or not, , in 6610 & 6611 we read the word twice as examples of unbelieving women married to believers and unbelieving men married to believers

Now I may ask, do you consider the following people metaphors

Prophet Lut and his wife
Prophet Noah and his wife
Pharaoh and his wife
?

but would have adressed me in a normal way

and what is a normal way exactly?

Bro your own fingers in the same hand are not the same, why you expect that all people should be the same?

and corrected me in a polite manner.

well, bro again regardless I agree with what you say or not, I?m sorry if you think that is was not polite, it was never my intension to be not polite with any one, my style is clear from day one and never changed, I have been here almost 9 months and you should know that this is who I?m , if you think I?m rude then I?m but not to you rather to the many non sense that you say and I told you that before, even if my brother said the same as you say I will treat him the exact same if not even harsher, remember 669 ? ?, ? and be hard against them?

now prove to me that what you say about hell is not blasphemy BUT ONLY USING THE QURAN ?I don?t take any other evidences when I debate Muslims including the sunnis?, thanks, and I tell you bro many sunnis hate me too., LOL, you know why? Because I?m the same with them when I corner them, their problem though is they can?t take it and the ban me, LOL this is what WhyIlsam sunni cult did with me, however there are many other sunni web sites that welcome me despite my harsh words, in fact there is an anti Islam web site that I?m always welcomed there, while I?m a freak over there, LOL

For a mature man you handle things in a childish manner.

LOL, well, to be honest I found my manner interesting, I swear, sometimes it take me by surprise but I hardly regret doing it, well I will be 41 years old on 24/7 but somehow I feel I?m still in my twenties, come on bro, I try to be funny and harsh at the same time, to be honest man, I crack my self laughing while writing ,many of my comments despite being really serious at the same time and this is hard to do actually. It is a style nothing more and I enjoy it despite it takes most of my day that I suppose to be doing a whole heap of other things.

You abuse the Quranic warnings to make people 'kafir' based on your judgement and your view of the Quran.

Now I will consider this utter BS pending proofs using the Quran, cheers

God will question you on this,

Of course and here is a point that I agree with you

as only God knows what is in the hearts,

and here is another one that I agree with you, today is our happy day bro

and is the only Judge.

wow, and another one that I agree with, am I dreaming?

To say i will go to Jahannam is saying you know the Unseen, this is blasphemy

Bro be real and try to handle the truth not being defensive and scared from it, this is what the Quran say about anyone who claim things never said about Allah and His creation as you do many times, I tried to make you aware of it many times using the Quran and you totally turned a blind eye, while I respect you as a person and wish you always the best I don?t respect what you say because it is non sensible and in reality for you to come to us with some insights about Allah and His Quran without providing compelling evidences using the whole Quran to tackle all Jahannam verses and prove your point is absolutely disrespect to our intellects as Quran followers

Salam and all the best

unknownuser

Peace AB, no worries.

Sorry I was busy wrting the above comment, it is 949 am and I have to be at work at 9, LOL

talk to you later today

Cheers

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Quote
The verse is clearly a metaphor regarding the vision in this life NOT THE HELL FIRE, so for me to take it literally I have to take it as a metaphor at least for the first part because the first part of being blind on earth doesn?t apply to all the kafirron on earth, but I prefer to take the last part as not a metaphor and they will be blind for real, now please tell me what that has to do with the hell being real or thoughts of mind?

The reason I said I prefer to take the last part as real because Allah clearly told us what those blind kafirron will say to Him on the JD after they are raised blind for real

124- And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.

125- He will say O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?

(124)
(125)

-> The above verse clearly and irrefutably tell us that the first part of 1772 is a metaphor ?Blind on Earth? and the second part is real ?Blind on the JD?, this is obvious from the kafir questioning Allah ? O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)??

This verse doesn't say it is a metaphor. Why then do you take it as such? Oh, so now you pick and choose? But i cannot? Now you have to admit it is a metaphor while it doesn't say it is a metaphor. You interpretated yourself it has to be a metaphor using 20124-125. I did the same for Gehenna and Djenna, and you still don't get the article.

Peace

unknownuser

Peace,

Quote
The verse is clearly a metaphor regarding the vision in this life NOT THE HELL FIRE, so for me to take it literally I have to take it as a metaphor at least for the first part because the first part of being blind on earth doesnt apply to all the kafirron on earth, but I prefer to take the last part as not a metaphor and they will be blind for real, now please tell me what that has to do with the hell being real or thoughts of mind?

The reason I said I prefer to take the last part as real because Allah clearly told us what those blind kafirron will say to Him on the JD after they are raised blind for real

124- And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.

125- He will say O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?

(124)
(125)

-> The above verse clearly and irrefutably tell us that the first part of 1772 is a metaphor Blind on Earth and the second part is real Blind on the JD, this is obvious from the kafir questioning Allah O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?

This verse doesn't say it is a metaphor.

because the common sense suggest as such unless you consider God talking non sense, in fact the verses after explain to us why they were considered blind metaphorically because they forgot ignored Allah message, clear as light it is a metaphor, so I donlt pick and chose according to my low desires, it is according to the common sense

in addition to the common sense provided in the verses expaling why they will be considered blind, it is clear that not all mishrikoon are physically blind so it has to be a metaphor, on the JD however we can't know because we have not been there yet however Allah clearly told that they will be raised physically blind as we read from the dialoguw between the kuffar and Him, so all the logical evidneces lead to taking the first part as metaohor and the seconad as real

Why then do you take it as such?

as above

Oh, so now you pick and choose?

according to clear common sense yes, but not according to my low desires

But i cannot?

no you can as long as it does not contradict another verse in the Quran

Now you have to admit it is a metaphor while it doesn't say it is a metaphor.

of course

You interpretated yourself it has to be a metaphor using 20124-125.

and 126 and 127 as well my interpretation does not create any of the zillions of conflicts and non sensible meanings as your interpretation does

I did the same for Gehenna and Djenna, and you still don't get the article.

Peace

NO I donlt get it because your interpretation will create zillions of many conflicts and non sense in the Quran, this will be explained in many of long comments that will be prepared for this thread

Peace

unknownuser

Peace AB

Peace bro

I ask you why Jahannam can't be real and a mental state at the same time (i.e. why does "real" have to mean a physical location?)

Because I consider it as we live now in a physical location, do you consider the earth real?

and your response is that Allah said it cant be both, and that it is only one. Now who is putting words in Allah's mouth?

well, it is my lack of English indeed, sorry

what I meant that Allah only gave us ONE MEANING OF HELL, but nice try by you bro.

Maybe I've missed the verse. Is there a verse that says "Jahannam is a physical place, and not a mental state"

Well there are verse that clearly says Jahannam is a place, this will come soon in a few long comments and a flash movie, however, no, there no verse that says it is not a state of mind so this means for me that it can?t be that because Allah didn?t say that

or something similar?

possibly, I will look and see

Can you point out a verse to me that says Jahannam has to be physical and nothing else?

I don?t have to show a verse that Jahannam can?t be nothing else, however if Allah didn?t mention that it can be anything else then it can?t be anything else

You see, you're using your preconceived notions of Allah's words.

No, it is you trying to create a concept Allah never told us about, so again I may ask you why you are trying to manipulate Allah words regarding Jahannam?

Did He say it can be a state of mind?

Just because you paste Allah's words and say the words mean X, doesnt mean X is Allah's words.

For you possibly and I won?t give a fluke really but for many it does

X is just your interpretation of Allah's words.

At least I don?t add to it nor manipulate it

Similarly, others (who you vehemently disagree with) use those very same Allah's words and interpret them as Y.

But they add to it as well manipulate it, I?m no fool it is obvious to the naked believing eye, it is called feel good religion concept, a serious vulnerability for those who can?t comprehend that Hell is for real, I k now a lot of those and possibly I was one of them about 22 years ago, but at that time I didn?t try to manipulate it to make look more comfy I just faced the truth of jahanaam as mentioned in details in the Quran then I accepted it because it is from Allah.

And yet you say they're making up their own words while you're only relying on Allah's words.

Of course they are and of course I?m not unless it was a mistake in expression as you caught me with one earlier.

You yourself are not above subjective impressions, preconceived notions, and biased interpretations. I think, the sooner you realize that, the better off these discussions will be.

Will see how soon I can realize, I have been here 9 months and I realized a lot of things, unfortunately what you want to realize in unrealizable yet

The argument I was making about the bird chirping wasn't mean to be "clever" or "tom and jerry."

Of course it is doctor.

I was making a very serious point, a point that I thought would be common sense "real" isnt just what you can see.

But if Allah is in the picture then anything I hear from Him must be real

I'm not going to beat around the bush.

A good idea

Thinking "reality" is only what we can see with the human eye is simply one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life.

Obviously you missed the plot and only concentrating to flaw me, while it is your right, I hope you support your claims using the Quran if you can, now what you missed is this

Anything Allah says, must be real regardless I see it or not, NOW I MAY DO YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN OR NOT?

Sounds you hear, feelings you have, all these things that the human eye cannot perceive, are not real?

Don?t try to confuse the subject bro with some philosophical tendencies, we are only talking about the vision as well I?m talking about what Allah says not what the humans say

I simply cannot understand how anyone can claim such a thing.

Fine, but you may try thinking harder

Similarly, it is possible that Allah uses imagery (imagery that the human mind can comprehend) to speak about things that we (in our limited experience) cannot possibly comprehend. Not everything is literal.

I don?t know what you going on about, let?s start from square one again and try to simplify it

The argument ?Is Jahhannam a PHYSICAL AND REAL PLACE OR NOT??
Accepted evidences ?Quran Alone?

Ahmed says, yes it is 100% physical place and I will provide many evidences from the Quran inshaallah to support my claim, I need a bit of time to prepare it

Back to you doctor

This isnt me changing Allah's words or doubting Allah.

Sure, you are just adding to it

This is me simply using the brain that Allah gave me.

Sure, use it to add to Allah words, as if it was not enough

I have the humility to realize that my Creator is Transcendent and Infinite, and that His knowledge surpasses my own and that, for the sake of human understanding,

Well, mate I don?t have philosophical tendencies so you are talking with the wrong person, you may discuss the above with many here who will love your words, I don?t

He has painted the message about certain things in metaphorical terms, in human imagery. This is completely possible. Nay, it is probable. How does one explain the taste of chocolate to one who has never even seen it?

Well, we can say it tastes good

Very clearly, Allah has spoken in metaphorical terms before; I don't see why this is any different.

Because it will conflict with a whole heap of verses

DON?T YOU GET IT OR WHAT BRO?

Does not Allah sit on His Throne (Arsh, 3975)? Is that literal? Is that "real?"

I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.

Do you honestly think that Allah (the Creator of the Universe) sits on a physical chair?

I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.

I'm sure you don't.

You sound confident but sorry wrong guess because I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.

I'm sure you see that as a metaphor for God's power and Sovereignty, just as we all do.

It is possible but I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.

Why is this any different? Why does "fire" have to be a physical fire? Why can't "fire" be like that throne that Allah speaks about?

Well the throne for sure is 100% physical, the quran told us that it is carried by 8, this means it is physical however regarding Allah sitting on it or not, I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.

Regarding the fire, yes in many location in the Quran Allah told us that it is real, and I care to know about that one because I need to avoid it however for the throne it won?t make a difference to me to know if Allah sits on it or not. So please don?t mix apples with mangos

If you say that Allah does not sit on a physical throne,

I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.

I can respond in kind So you don't think the Throne is "real" ?

Of course it is real because it is carried by 8 as Allah told us

Are you saying Allah lied?

Utter BS

Are you doubting Allah's words? etc. etc.

Utter BS

Why is this any different?

Bro, let?s go back to square one and try to simplify it again, please respond to this only and ignore the all the above

The argument ?Is Jahhannam a PHYSICAL AND REAL PLACE OR NOT??
Accepted evidences ?Quran Alone?

Ahmed says, yes it is 100% physical place and I will provide many evidences from the Quran inshaallah to support my claim, I need a bit of time to prepare it

Back to you doctor

Cheers

Alen

Salam.

I think that Arnold wrote a beautiful article but to descibe heaven and Hell ..... well, i have been thinking about this for a while and i think we cannot really even imagine what Heaven or Hell look like until we get there.

I mean, sure, it says we will have all the food, drinks, virgins, peace, nice clothes, tranquility, harmony, friendships in Paradise but we can't imagine that because we haven't experienced it and we can't possibly compare it to this world and it's food, drinks, virgins, peace, nice clothes, tranquility, harmony, friendships.

Also, one can't describe either Heaven or Hell because one hasn't seen them or experienced them. We have descriptions of them in the Qur'an but i think that Heaven and Hell are far beyond human comprehension.

Just like we can't descibe God Almighty to an atheist because we haven't see Him yet. Of course, when we see Him, .... it will be so new experience that i think all this world, what we did, our memory, goals and everything else will seem smaller at that moment.

I do wish to get inside Paradise, i pray for it but only Allah Most High guides whomever He wants to the Right Path. There are people on this Earth who don't want Heaven - and they will get just that.

Allah Most Merciful knows best.
Salam.

unknownuser

Peace Alen,

Please re-read the whole thread once again.
Also where-ever you read any verse quoted from quran, you must re-confirm it., else you will be beliving on hearsay.
Thereafter quote your views, Ill be looking forward to your post jedi

Salam