Djenna & Gehenna; explanation
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Peace,
The word for seven is also several in classic arabic. And what i meant with misquoting is that you need the whole story to understand those little parts. For the rest is a matter of insight and view. And this is not a 'new' view. Some of the ideas i got from ancient commentators of the Quran as Raghib. That they are unknown to you, is a different matter.
If you look at the verses of gathering, they are talking about Gog and Magog, which is a metaphor for evil nations. -
peace
How can hell be eternal if 3185 says this?
Every living being shall have to taste death. On the Resurrection Day you shall be paid in full what you have earned. Whoever is drawn away from the Fire, and gets admitted to Paradise, will have gained supreme triumph. Those who consider the life of the world as the end in itself should know that it is only a comfort of self-deception. The real success depends on striving for this world and for the Hereafter.Every soul must taste of death; and ye shall only be paid what ye have earned on the Day of Resurrection. But he who is forced away from the Fire and brought into Paradise is indeed triumphant; but the life of this world is but a possession of illusion." 3185
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Peace Arnold
How do you explain the hour in the following verse and many other verses.
25 11
Yusuf Ali Nay they deny the Hour (of the Judgment to come) but We have prepared a Blazing Fire for such as deny the HourTransliteration Bal kaz zabu_ bis sa_ah wa atadna_ liman kaz zaba bis sa_ati saira_
25 12
Yusuf Ali When it sees them from a place far off they will hear its fury and its raging sigh.Transliteration Iza_ ra at hum mim maka_nim baidin samiu_ laha_ tagay yuzaw wa zafira_
Also the following verse on the Day of Qiyama
11 97
Yusuf Ali Unto Pharaoh and his Chiefs but they followed the command of Pharaoh and the command of Pharaoh was no right (guide).
Transliteration Ila_ fir'auna wa mala'ihi fa- ttaba'u_ amra fir'aun(a), wa ma_ amru fir'auna bi rasyid(in).
11 98
Yusuf Ali He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment and lead them into the Fire (as cattle are led to water) but woeful indeed will be this leading (and) the place led to!
Transliteration Yaqdumu qaumahu_ yaumal qiya_mati fa auradahumun na_r(a), wa bi'sal wirdul mauru_d(u).
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Peace Arnold
Peace
How do you explain the hour in the following verse and many other verses.
25 11
Yusuf Ali Nay they deny the Hour but We have prepared a Blazing Fire for such as deny the HourTransliteration Bal kaz zabu_ bis sa_ah wa atadna_ liman kaz zaba bis sa_ati saira_
25 12
Yusuf Ali When it sees them from a place far off they will hear its fury and its raging sigh.Transliteration Iza_ ra at hum mim maka_nim baidin samiu_ laha_ tagay yuzaw wa zafira_
Hour, Al-Sa'ah , literaly means any possible time . It refers to a moment of revolutionaire change. For example Raghib says that it refers to the resurrection, to the fall of a nation and to a death of a person. For example in 631 it is used for the death of a Nafs. The above verse you gave is a clear example where it can apply to a fall of a nation as well as the resurrection day. When you approach it as something in this life, then the Fire resemebles the misery they will fall into as a nation or individual. Like for example fall into a war or poverty. When a nation or individual refuses to accept God's revelation, somehwere in it's excistence, the nation or person will fall inot misery, this moment is the Hour, and the falling into misery is resembled by the Fire, as all they had earned is turned into waste.
When you approach it for the next life, it resembles the confrontation with the Truth. This confrontation will be like burning. I don't believe they will be thrown in a literal fire, but that it used as a metaphor for the state of agony the Self will be in when it will be confronted with it's deeds. The persons veils will be dropped that are on it's heart and it will see clearly all it has done and how much he deviaded from the Truth, and this will experienced as agony, like Fire.
As these verses explain beautifully
1044 Nay, he will be flung into the Hutuma.
1045 Ah, what will convey to you what the Hutuma is?
1046 A Fire kindled by Allah.
1047 Which originates in, and engulfs, the hearts.
1048 Verily, it closes upon them.
1049 In extended columns.Hutuma comes from hatima, which means it broke in parts. This refers to the illusions they had build up in this life, which will be crushed, shredded and broken. This confrontation will be like a Fire engulfing the heart.
Also the following verse on the Day of Qiyama
11 97
Yusuf Ali Unto Pharaoh and his Chiefs but they followed the command of Pharaoh and the command of Pharaoh was no right (guide).
Transliteration Ila_ fir'auna wa mala'ihi fa- ttaba'u_ amra fir'aun(a), wa ma_ amru fir'auna bi rasyid(in).
11 98
Yusuf Ali He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment and lead them into the Fire (as cattle are led to water) but woeful indeed will be this leading (and) the place led to!
Transliteration Yaqdumu qaumahu_ yaumal qiya_mati fa auradahumun na_r(a), wa bi'sal wirdul mauru_d(u).
1198 Clearly says Resurrection Day and not Judgement Day, yaumal qiyama , so this can only refer to when they are resurrected and they are confronted with their deeds, that he leads them into the Fire refers to that all of their harmfull deeds are because they had followed him, so he is the source, the leader, which they followed into misery.
The difference to my approach is that not that i don't believe in a punishment, no. I appraoch the words differently. I don't believe in a physical burning hell, which was taken from the persian and greek theology. What i believe, is that a Nafs, Self, should have attained a certain level of truth in them. If this is not attained, by believing in illusions as idolatry or commiting crimes, the Nafs will experience this as agony when they are resurrected in the New Universe. The burning is a metaphor for not attaing the right development. Djenna refers to positive evolution of the Nafs/Self, and Jahannam refers to stagnation of the Nafs where it is neither dead or alive.
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Peace Arnold
Did you ponder over the following verse as well,
7 50
Yusuf Ali The companions of the fire will call to the companions of the garden; "pour down to us water or anything that Allah doth provide for your sustenance." They will say "Both these things hath Allah forbidden to those who rejected Him.
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Peace,
yes of course, please read my article at 19.org
http//19.org/index.php?arnold
When you look at verse 746, it says that there is a veil between the people of Djenna and Jahannam, not a distance. So it is the states of mind in which they are that is different, not the places. For the people who have rejected the guidance, they will be in a state of agony and any knowledge in the next life they recieve will be like eating of the tree of zaquum, a real tree species in Arabia, which have bitter leaves that are filthy. Food and sustance in these verses refer to experience and knowledge. The people of Jahannam want the knowledge and experience of the people of Djenna, but because their Nafs has not attained the right level, they cannot reach Djenna. As they will know now that only the Truth is the real sustance of life.
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I like that one
"will be like eating the tree of Zaqqum"
as if he knows the tree of Zaqqum and how it tastes so it will taste like it
rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Peace AB,
The tree of Zaquum is a real excisting tree in Arabia, it can be found in the Tihamah province. It is a dustcoloured tree having small round leaves without thorns. It has a pungent odor, has knots in its stems and is bitter in taste. The heads of it's leaves are very foul, it bears a kind of intensely bitter and sticking fruit, and even camels are reluctant to eat them. When you eat these fruits, the real tree's fruits in this life, it gives a burning feeling in the belly and one needs a lot of water to quench the thirst although it will not take away the burning sensation. Zaquum also became a metaphor for any deadly food because of this quality.
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Peace AB,
The tree of Zaquum is a real excisting tree in Arabia, it can be found in the Tihamah province. It is a dustcoloured tree having small round leaves without thorns. It has a pungent odor, has knots in its stems and is bitter in taste. The heads of it's leaves are very foul, it bears a kind of intensely bitter and sticking fruit, and even camels are reluctant to eat them. When you eat these fruits, the real tree's fruits in this life, it gives a burning feeling in the belly and one needs a lot of water to quench the thirst although it will not take away the burning sensation. Zaquum also became a metaphor for any deadly food because of this quality.
Salam
and where you got this info from?
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Peace,
All Classic arabic dictionaries mention this, as well Bukhari in his commentary on the Quran. It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example. If i'm correct the tree can still be found in the Tihama province which is on the West coast of the Arabian peninsula. This region extends from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb straits. In the time of the Prophet, this is where the tree grew.
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Peace,
All Classic arabic dictionaries mention this, as well Bukhari in his commentary on the Quran. It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example. If i'm correct the tree can still be found in the Tihama province which is on the West coast of the Arabian peninsula. This region extends from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb straits. In the time of the Prophet, this is where the tree grew.
Well bro
I never heard about what you are alleging neither I found any thing on google, as well I don't take hadith as an evidence
cheers
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Peace,
That you can't find on google doesn't say anything, and that several dictionaries report it as an excisting tree doesn't surprise me at all. If you reject this because it is found in dictionaries and you believe dictionaries are hadith, then you can reject every meaning of arabic you were taught as these all come from hadith, outside sources, also. I am as carefull in rejecting as accepting. But it is indeed interresting to see if the tree still excists in the Tihama province.
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Excuse me bro you came and said the followi g reagrding the Zaqqum tree
Arnold said
1)All Classic arabic dictionaries mention this,
2) as well Bukhari in his commentary on the Quran.
3) It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example.
4) The tree can still be found in the Tihama province which is on the West coast of the Arabian peninsula.
5) This region extends from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb straits.
6)In the time of the Prophet, this is where the tree grew.and despite that I found noting in googlr, who are you kiddin bro?
well if you goole Zaqqum, Zuqqum, Zaqum, or whatever you want to spell it, you will only find the Zuqqum tree mnetioned in the Quran that exist in hell
now for point number 3 abive
- It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example.
I found it so silly by you, well Allah told in the Quran that the tree comes out from the bottom of the hell not from the bottom of your Tihama province , keep listening to Satan man, you are doing exactly what he wants, good on you
Cheers
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Peace,
AB, that it is not found in Google says nothing and you know that. And the Arabic dictionaries do mention this clearly, Lane's Lexicon, Tay's, Omar's dictionary. i'm as carefull to reject or accept. I don't see the crime and blasphemy really in believing a real tree is used as a metaphor in the Quran. As for your last point you give, it doesn't exclude at all if the tree doesn't excist in this world or not. As always you grab your 'you listen to satan and i don't' authority just because it devaides from your common sense or view, and in this case again it is a huge exgerration to use it with this. People who like to wave flags don't deserve one. This has backfired on you many times before brother. I hope in time you will see this.
Peace brother
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Salaams arnold,
sorry Br. but your whole argument is screwed up.
there are two sets of verses which your confusing into one .
There are worldly verses , and there are verses talking about the hereafter and you have confused the issue by telling everyone they are all talking about the happenings in this the world.
You do need to reconsider the verses and see what i mean or we could talk about it if you like - after i come back from a small trip.
Gods Blessings.
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Peace,
So much talk on wether hell is physical or state of mind. And these are the only options circulating here. Why?
Becouse our brain is so small! Our brain cannot grasp something like hell or heaven.
That why it is alegorical, like fruits and rivers and things and fire and hot water... things that pleases us and hurt us in this world.If heaven is nothing more then a garden with fruits and rivers than its not much worth fighting for, couse we have a lot of that here on earth.
Thats why there is no possible way to say to anyone You are wrong about hell! Even if he claims that hell is an ICE CREAM.I think we should settle down this time and say it, simple and pure WE DON"T KNOW !!
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Salaams arnold,
sorry Br. but your whole argument is screwed up.
there are two sets of verses which your confusing into one .
There are worldly verses , and there are verses talking about the hereafter and you have confused the issue by telling everyone they are all talking about the happenings in this the world.
You do need to reconsider the verses and see what i mean or we could talk about it if you like - after i come back from a small trip.
Gods Blessings.
Peace,
Some verses can be applied to this life and the next. But we can discuss that when you want.
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Salaams arnold,
sorry Br. but your whole argument is screwed up.
there are two sets of verses which your confusing into one .
There are worldly verses , and there are verses talking about the hereafter and you have confused the issue by telling everyone they are all talking about the happenings in this the world.
You do need to reconsider the verses and see what i mean or we could talk about it if you like - after i come back from a small trip.
Gods Blessings.
Peace,
Some verses can be applied to this life and the next. But we can discuss that when you want.
Salaams Br,
lets start then.
God already explains that the descriptions of Gehenna and Djenna are metaphors, allegories. (see 1335 and 4715)
The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it flow rivers perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of Unbelievers in the Fire.
They are parables so your little mind (and my little mind too) can grasp what the garden will be like, it doesn?t mean they aren?t real.
Look at these parables ? they are showing you/ your mind , so you might grasp what Allah is saying to you by picturing it.
The parable of those who spend their substance in the way of Allah is that of a grain of corn it groweth seven ears, and each ear Hath a hundred grains. Allah giveth manifold increase to whom He pleaseth And Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things.
What they spend in the life of this (material) world May be likened to a wind which brings a nipping frost It strikes and destroys the harvest of men who have wronged their own souls it is not Allah that hath wronged them, but they wrong themselves.
Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried "When (will come) the help of Allah?" Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near!
So is suffering and adversity part of anybodies Garden? No definitely but that is the rout we must follow if it is the right way ? whether it is a garden or hell for us here on earth the right way is to be chosen whether it be a garden like or not. For all this you will get a garden as promised, whether you die going through this dire way.
God Bless.
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Peace Arnold,
That was a very interesting perspective. Could you check if I understand well the article you wrote? here's a summary of keypoints i understand from your article. Thanks in advance, arnold.
p1. The description of Djenna and Gehenna is to be taken as metaphors, allegories.
p2. It is not physical place like we perceived.
p3. It is about inter-relationship of mind and consequences, both affecting the other. (ground of conciousness & deeds)
p4. It can occur in this life and the next life.
p5. the word "fire" represents a state of deteriotion of logic and truth.
p6. gehenna is temporary.
p7. Eventually everyone will be in Djenna, a true gift unfailing... after we learned not to have bad grounds/ states of mind.
salam.
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To clear the confusion anyone might have regarding the reason of "jehannam" coming from the Greek "gehenna"... this is true. Several Greek or Hellenized Hebrew/Aramaic words were incorporated into Arabic through direct Nabataean influence. Injeel is another example derived from Euanggelion... Iblis and balas may be another one coming from the Greek DiaBolos. "Yoonus" is definitely derived from the hellenized name "Yunis" that was derived from Yonah/Jonah. Arnold is correct in his findings...