You Have Been Warned

Tay

Peace Ahmed,

Main Entry negative reinforcement
Function noun
psychological reinforcement by removal of an unpleasant stimulus when a desired response occurs

Main Entry positive reinforcement
Part of Speech noun
Definition the offering of desirable effects or consequences for a behavior with the intention of increasing the chance of that behavior being repeated in the future

Are you seriously telling me that examples of these cannot be found in excess within al-qur'an?

I am sorry Ahmed, but the fact that you're still defending your position after it's clear/obvious that your castle is made of sand is really shocking.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

jonny_k

Peace bros "Tay" and "AB",
This is what i did not understand about you bro "AB". As i understood bro "Tay" says that both "fear of GOD" and the "reward given to us by GOD" are motivations for us to strive and do good and i definitely agree with that. Why do you have to disagree with the 1st part i.e. fear motivates too? And if you do then why do you believe GOD commanded us to fear Him? GOD Bless!

phoenix1

peace JK,

you said that hell will be felt through our senses.
what I'm saying is that that's not possible because there are no senses.

We shouldn't fear a being that will come through the clouds and smite us, we should fear the results of our bad deeds. That is fear of God, I believe.

See, the quran is meant for guidance. It directs us to the right path.
It takes everything in steps...

we fear God
because we fear God we do good
because we do good we purify our soul
4.because we purify our soul we see the truth and do good unconditionally.

jonny_k

Peace "phoenix1"

peace JK,

you said that hell will be felt through our senses.
what I'm saying is that that's not possible because there are no senses.

JK- Senses are in the mind. Just like we feel pain in our brain and if that too is an illusion that means we really feel it in our mind which is located at some point we dont know nor comprehend. Think of the world like a matrix and youll understand. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Peace bros "Tay" and "AB",
This is what i did not understand about you bro "AB". As i understood bro "Tay" says that both "fear of GOD" and the "reward given to us by GOD" are motivations for us to strive and do good and i definitely agree with that. Why do you have to disagree with the 1st part i.e. fear motivates too? And if you do then why do you believe GOD commanded us to fear Him? GOD Bless!

Peace bro

I stand firm to what I said, Allah does not need us to worship Him, it is a law that He created and He created us for that reaosn only , we are talking Hell here we are not talking Paradise

Motivation needs reward not punishment

Just a side note bro, I would like to discuss 7431 with you, whenebver you have time

Salam

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Main Entry negative reinforcement
Function noun
psychological reinforcement by removal of an unpleasant stimulus when a desired response occurs

Main Entry positive reinforcement
Part of Speech noun
Definition the offering of desirable effects or consequences for a behavior with the intention of increasing the chance of that behavior being repeated in the future

Are you seriously telling me that examples of these cannot be found in excess within al-qur'an?

I am sorry Ahmed, but the fact that you're still defending your position after it's clear/obvious that your castle is made of sand is really shocking.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

Mate

what evidences you provided exactly?

you provided nill, zero, big O evidenes from the Quran

Again you need reward for motivation, to say the punshment is a reward is ttter non sesne

Cheers

arnoldyasin

Peace bro "Arnold" and all,

Peace,

If you do a good deed because you fear you get punished by God if you don't do it, then you are not good by nature. If you do a good deed because of the reward, then again you are not good by nature. Your motivations for the deed are not doing good for the sake of good itself, but out of fear of being punished or missing the reward. So without the punishment you would have not done good, and without the reward you would not have done good. And by thus you are not good by nature.

If a person doesn't do an evil deed because he fears the punishment, then again he is not good by nature, as without the punishment he would have done the evil deed. If a person doesn't do an evil deed because he fears of missing the reward for not doing it, again he is not motivated by being good, but by missing the reward. So without the punishment he would have done evil, and without the reward he would have done evil. These people are no better then dogs, without a treat or punishment they will not listen. They are motivated by fear or greed. Does this make good muslims? No, as the core of such a persons soul is not based on a good nature.

I do good because i understand the nature of doing good. I do good without fear or greed, without need for a reward or fear of punishment. That in the end God will reward for me it, is again showing God is the most Mercifull, the Provider, but because my motivation is for the sake of good itself, my soul is pure, as i'm the same with a reward or punishment as i'm without them. That every deed has a certain result is God's law, His yaumwedeen, the Era of Judgement and Order which is at work all the time.

You have to question yourself, by what are you motivated? And more especially If there were no reward or punishment, would you have still done good, would you have still obeyed God? Answer this question and you will understand the core of your being, the motivator of all your deeds.....

Peace

JK- I believe we had a long debate on this at
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/5847/0/
Ill just quote the most crucial pt which yet remains to be answered
2.Why would i do something if i know that it doesnt benefit me at some point or the other if that goes against my wishes?

Then right here you have answered the core of your being. If you don't understand this, then i cannot explain it to you.....

You(Arnold Yasin) wrote

If good goes against your wishes, you have to check yourself on who you are and what you stand for. And i don't mind if i get benefit from the good deed or not, as the deed itself rewarded me.

I(Jonny K) replied

JK- Explain to me how the deed rewards you bro? Ill just list two possibilities

GOD is happy with you now. Ok so you reeived the mercy of GOD which ultinately leads to an incredible good feeling. So it is because of this feeling that it is done. Let me make it clear. When you ride various rides in a theme park you do it because of the great feeling, right? Now in the presence of GOD youll surely have all those feeelings and much more put together so it is worth doing the good deed.
It just feels good. Well a quite irrational argument but then again you did it because of your feeling. Now what if you felt bad after doing something which has observably been found out to be good by the society? Think about that one.

GOD Bless!

Because i do what is the core of my being. And true goodness can never go against society as it is the good that lays hidden inside most people, but sadly it is mostly hidden. But your argument fails with most things, as when i was younger i smoked weed and felt bad about it, while by my society it is seen as good. So society is not my criterion but the Quran is....

Peace

unknownuser

Hello All

I will take the chance that we are talking about hell and discuss another matter that may seem unrelated, which is code 19, I?m sure many are exhausted already discussing it, however a friend of mine a while back sent me some info and I put in a document with more info, I was going through my documents and saw it so I would like to discuss the subject ?just to have a break from the main subject?, it is still related, I?m glad we have Arnold and JK and I believe both are code 19 advocates, one believes Hell is a physical place and the other don?t, so I would like to see what they have to say to this, all other comments are welcomed

(30)
(31)

Lt?s see how R K manipulated 7431 to justify his invention

30- Over it is nineteen.

31- We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did ALLAH mean by this allegory?" ALLAH thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

This is what I see as a proper translation to 74/30-31 by Piktchal

"Over it Nineteen

AND We have not made/appointed/set the wardens of the fire others than angels; and We have NOT made/appointed/set their number BUT a fitna(punishment/torment) for those who disbelieve(d); that those who have been given the book may attain certainty AND those who believe may increase in faith; AND those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say What does Allah mean by this mathal? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals."

The words that R K NEVER TRANSLATED are underlined, here is what he has done

he didn?t translate the word ? ?,?ILLA?, ?only/but/except?,which stands in front of the word ? ?,?FITNA?
he inserted numbering as seen in his translation
he translated the word ? ?,?FITNA?, that is actually a noun as a verb ?to disturb?.
he inserted IN FRONT OF the word ? ?,?FITNA?, the word "to?. ?li", however, "to" comes ONLY AFTER "fitna for disbelievers", ? ?
he omitted a ?waw/and?, between the 2nd and the 3rd function and between the 3rd and the 4th function, ? ?, this was very deceitful indeed, it looked as if the English language controlled the ?AND? for combining 5 functions to give the impressions that the verse is talking about 5 functions that are served by the number 19.

He has done his best TO GIVE AN IMPRESSION that "but a fitna for disbelievers" is ?only one? out of five functions of "the angels number?.

While in Arabic the verse says that "but a fitna for those who disbelieve(d)" is the ONLY FUNCTION of "the angel number?, all other functions/things mentioned in the verse will be a result of a fitna that is caused by their number, that is, their number being made but a fitna for those who disbelieved will cause 4 functions.

This is why Piktchal put a semicolon after words "but a fitna for disbelievers;" and between the 2nd and 3rd function, according to Piktchal there is no colon nor semicolon, but there is conjunction waw/and.
for the same purpose RK omitted conjunctions waw/and between 2nd and 3rd function and between 3rd and 4th function cause in original Arabic there is no conjunction waw/and between his alleged 1st and 2nd function(to make it looks as only one out of five functions), see how one letter debunked R K invention?

If there was conjunction waw/and after words "but a fitna for disbelievers", only then it be possible to count "attaining certainty and increasing faith etc" mentioned in the verse as equal functions of their number, together with its function of being "but a fitna for those who disbelieve"

It is obvious that listing does not starts by fitna, but by "that those who are given the book attain certainty"?etc, their number is not made but a fitna, and then(!) comes word "to/that"- to/that

1.those who are given the book attain certainity,

2.those who believe to increase faith

.
etc

it is very clear that "but a fitna for disbelievers" is the MAIN and only function of No 19 and not first of five, listing starts after those words and not before them, that is, all functions listed after words "fitna for those who disbelieve" are not caused by their number itself but by their number being but a fitna/punishment (in hereafter) for those who disbelieve.

This is what verse says in Arabic, this is natural reading and is obvious fact, EXCEPT in the case if someone is confused and heavily influenced with preconceived idea of existing a consistent miraculous code of 19 divisibility in the quran.

His translation is too distorted and it hardly convey the meaning of the verse, the verse says that FITNA for those who disbelieve is the prime, main and the ONLY FUNCTION of "the hell angel number". All other "functions/things mentioned in the verse are result of their number being fitna/punishment/torment. ?We have NOT made their number - BUT a fitna for those who disbelieve; that??

So it is not their number itself that will do the job of convincing, but their number being nothing "BUT A FITNA/punishment/torment for those who disbelieve (in hereafter)" will do the job of convincing/getting certainty and increasing iman of the people in this world), 19 angels being but a torment/punishment for disbelievers in hell will do the job and not No 19 itself and not code 19 ...

Their number being but a fitna/punishment/torment for "those who disbelieved" refers to the hereafter, and functions listed after "their number being but a fitna" refers to this world.

19 angels of hell fire is a description/example/symbol of torturing in hell fire- one of the main quranic concepts that was detailed in it, and according to the Quran - quranic doctrines are of use to people...they increases faith and help to people get to certainty and help them to avoid/stop falling in doubts.

19 stern and severe guardians/employees in hell who perform torment, 19 angels will do the job of increasing and not the code., i.e. the believers knows that there will be stern angels (regardless of their number) that will punish those who disbelieve, this in effect will make their faith increase. There is no question that reading Allahs verses=>fearing of fire and its angels=> avoiding evil and following quran and reading quran=> increasing in faith

Quran is full of warnings with hell fire as one of main doctrines of Quran...And Quran itself is called ZIKR/warning/reminder .... Nearly, you can not find a single page of Quran without mention of THIS WARNING AND ADMONITION- the hell fire... People are warned/reminded in Quran to save themselves from the fire UPON IT (are)MALAIKAH- strong and severe who are never hesitate from performing any commands of their Lord(punishing and torturing of disbelievers in hell.

So malaikah and their number are but a description as all other hell descriptions in the Quran and means and example of torturing in hell fire, what is the most important such quranic warnings according to the Quran have power to increase faith of believers and have a power to increase in people awareness of hearafter and all the truths and purposes of their lives, and to help the people(who read about these warnings in Allah`s book, and who "believe" in it, but are not convinced and are not on level of certainty) to attain certainty that Allah exist. Fearing of the punishment in hearafter force, to be just , to read Quran, to learn, to strive in Allahs path and to obey Allah commands in Quran and acting that way they attain certainty and increase their faith...and are prevented from falling in doubts... Does not reading of Quran ITSELF and its warnings,morals,lessons, messages, wisdoms have CONVINCING power?, well, there is no doubt that reciting of Quranic verses with its warnings/good news IS ITSELF ENOUGH FOR INCREASING THE FAITH OF BELIEVERS., NO need for the verses which refer to made up code

Those only are believers whose hearts become full of fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His communications are recited to them they increase them in faith, and in their Lord do they trust.

(2)

unknownuser

This is what the advocates of code 19 can not or will never understand, they think that verses will increase faith only if they refer to mathematical code, .and according to them if the verses do not talk about the code then the verses are man made, hence the verse not different from any other utterance of mortal, and the verses can not increase faith and convince?, does not make any sense to me.

They wondered but why 19 malaikah?, Why do you think Allah chooses the number of the angles over saqar to be 19?, well, their wonder was mentioned in the same very verse, ? and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say What does Allah mean by this mathal??

To answer their silly question, we need to aske the that question Why EIGHT malaikah will carry arsh(throne) of Allah on JD as mentioned in Quran? Why do they think Allah choses 8 angels to carry His throne ON JD?

And the angels will be on its sides, and EIGHT will bear, that Day, above them, the Throne of thy Lord.

(17)

I really do not know Allah secrets and why 19 angels suits hell, as well as i have no idea why 8 angels suits carrying His Throne on JD, possibly some new code?, I will leave this to them to find out. However, the phrase "None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He" seems to me as a good explanation for this. No one knows why exactly 19 malaikah are upon hell fire...only Allah know his soldiers- their characteristics, their capabilities, and He knows why He chose exactly 19 malaikah, but we know that their purpose is to punish and torture disbelievers in hell

O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.

(6)

If Allah made/set/appointed some other number, people would again ask why this number? Why not some other number? Why exactly this number? Why not this and that?, for me, I leave them to Allah, on the otherhand Allah surely knew that one day will come some people who will want to extricate some weird doctrines using parts of some verses so He warned us in advance

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

(7)

So, once again we have a case of choosing man made appendices and confusing code 19 explanation of verses instead of explaining the Quran with the Quran, the advocates of code 19 are themselves witnesses that code 19 does not increase iman, but only increase sectarianism and confusion of Islam, in fact after witnessing code 19 they compete well with the sunnies and sometimes they better the sunnies themselves in inventing non sense.

The phrase "this/it is a reminder to people" in 7431 refers to the Quran/its verses/admonitions and/or hell as it is explained further in 7432-37

A warning to mankind

(36)

->7436 "A warning to mankind " and not to code 19, that?s because the theme of the passage was rejecting the verses of quran and punishment promised for it and "saqar being lawwahatun to all people"

This will also be more clear if we read whole surah from start to finish, If we read 7442-47 we see listed reasons for ending in saqar/hell fire and we see how their situation is bad (no intercessors) AND in next verses 7449 -50 Allah says"Why are they so averse to reminder? Running like zebras."

So we see what is the reminder -saqar/hell-fire and mention of saqar in quran, as well as in other scriptures.... they are avers of profiting by being admonished by hell fire and from rejecting to perform simple faith doctrines no prayer, no alms giving, vain talk? and not for rejecting the code.

Beside that, the Quran as well as the verses of all books of Allah is throughout quran described as "the reminder" and called reminder, code 19 not even a single time, coincidence?

Also, it is advocates of code 19 who lack understanding of 7431 and they wander how will mere mentions of 19 angels guarding hell increase the faith?, how will mere mention of 19 angels guarding hell help people to attain certainty?, THEY are THOSE WHO do not understand what Allah intended by the parable/example and after THAT they invented and accepted a whole satanic code in order to explain the parable/example, they do not understand that quranic warnings are of benefit to people in increasing of faith and attaining certainty,

What they can not and do not want to understand is that how can punishment of disbelievers in the hereafter cause all the things listed as result?, what they do not want to see is that the Quran is a book of admonition

?We did not reveal the Quran to you, to cause you any hardship. 20/3 But only as an admonition to those who fear (Allah)?
?We thus revealed it, an Arabic Quran, and we have been distributed all around it all kinds of threats, that they may guard themselves against evil(or in order that people may fear), or that it may cause them to take heed.?

2149, 6712, "Those who fear Allah bil ghayb (unseen)?

3611 "you can warn those who fear the Merciful bil ghayb"

879, "therefore give admonition in case the admonition profits (the hearer)?

8710 "He will head who fears.?

8711 "but it (admonition) will be avoided by the most unfortunate one?

Salam

unknownuser

Hello All

Sorry forgot these verses, some will argue that fitnah means test, and I agree that it does however it also means PUNISHMENT, in fact Allah used it as such with the hell fire as follow

13- (It is) the day when they will be tormented at the Fire,

14- Taste your torment (which ye inflicted). This is what ye sought to hasten.

(13)
(14)

-> See ? ?, ?Ala Al Nar Yuftanun?, ? tormented at the Fire?, then ? ?, ?Zuqu Fitnatikum?, ? Taste your torment?

Salam

unknownuser

Peace all,

My approach towards certain verses mentioned above in relations to 7431 and others comes from analysing historical significance. It has nothing to do with "afterlife" or code-19. If I bring my thoughts into this, I'm sure I'll be bashed out by some belligerents unecessarily and become a battle ground. What say you? Do I get a green light?

jonny_k

Peace bro "AB",
This has been discussed in great detail before at the following links
http//19.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=3391&start=0&rid=222&S=959ad3c8526c525709339038b171b59c (I debate on this very issue in great detail with a sunni "Damnare Sathani&quot
http//19.org/forum/index.php/m/24404/222/ (Yuksel explains)
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/saqar.htm (Which one do you see , reg. chp 74, Hell or Miracle?)
http//19.org/index.php?id=76,263,0,0,1,0 (A Part related to this from "Intg ppls guide to code-19" NOTE Red part is Ayman's claim and black Yuksels rebuttal)
Please read them through thoroughly before the same things are repeated.

Now lemme make one point clear. If we read 7431 your way then it's the fitnah of no 19 which shoulve convinced the People of the Book. Could you please tell me how many people from them were convinced by the Fitnah? On the contrary the code made people believe and strengthen their faith. Checkout
http//19.org/index.php?id=76,249,0,0,1,0

GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace bro "AB",

Peace bro

I stand firm to what I said, Allah does not need us to worship Him, it is a law that He created and He created us for that reaosn only , we are talking Hell here we are not talking Paradise

Motivation needs reward not punishment

Just a side note bro, I would like to discuss 7431 with you, whenebver you have time

Salam

JK- Youve still not told me why does GOD then need to warn us of punishment also if we do wrong? Regarding 7431 go through the links i posted. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Thanks JK

Give me some time to go through but I will respond here please not there

time to go to work

Salam

jonny_k

Peace bro "AB",

Thanks JK

Give me some time to go through but I will respond here please not there

JK- No problem. GOD Bless!

Tay

Peace Ahmed,

Again you need reward for motivation

Wrong. I suggest you invest in an English dictionary.

to say the punshment is a reward is ttter non sesne

Of course it's nonsense...no one even said that.

I leave you in peace.

Tay

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Again you need reward for motivation

Wrong. I suggest you invest in an English dictionary.

to say the punshment is a reward is ttter non sesne

Of course it's nonsense...no one even said that.

I leave you in peace.

Tay

great bro

then olease explain to me again how hell can motivate people?

cheers

noble

Peace
This debate about motivation is not very productive.
Here is my opinion (I am a fluent english speaker)
In english motivation is usually used with a reward, ie it encourages someone to move towards doing something and then reward the action.
However if you want someone to move away from something, you use fear, which is a deterrent, or moving away from what will cause or be associated with pain or discomfort.
I think neither of the above apply to fear of Allah.
Therefore I invite you to stop debating this
And Allah knows best

unknownuser

Peace bro "AB",

JK- Youve still not told me why does GOD then need to warn us of punishment also if we do wrong? Regarding 7431 go through the links i posted. GOD Bless!

Peace bro

I went through the first two links, and I'm sorry the two brothers in there clearly refuted this allegation of a code in the Quran

for your question, Allah has to warn us of a punishment in advance so we will not have an excuse, in fact this is what He said in the Quran, i.e. Allah won't punish us unless His warnings are delivered

Salam

unknownuser

Peace
This debate about motivation is not very productive.
Here is my opinion (I am a fluent english speaker)
In english motivation is usually used with a reward, ie it encourages someone to move towards doing something and then reward the action.
However if you want someone to move away from something, you use fear, which is a deterrent, or moving away from what will cause or be associated with pain or discomfort.
I think neither of the above apply to fear of Allah.
Therefore I invite you to stop debating this
And Allah knows best

That is exactly right bro, it is called Motivation VS Warning = Garden VS Hell

Salam