i may leave islam for good
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peace Z
I think OpenMind was talking about Danish.
I don't think Muhammad understood the Koran, he wrote it. Actually, I doubt the name of the author was Muhammad.
That doesn't matter, though. What matters is that we know the Koran is Muhammad's words. The words were INSPIRED by God, NOT written by God.
So whatever Muhammad wanted us to know is written in that book. Anything else we add to it's message is just an addition. No one would write an incomplete book, or teach an incomplete teaching. -
salaam zantetsuken,
you have stated that you study are currently studying evolution. there is nothing wrong with that. what is wrong is that most of the scientific research are conducted by mankind! mankind are never free of errors! surely, the evidence do not lie! but remember it is just a theory, surely some part of it is surely true, but you have to take into account that scientific research on this topic is yet to be completed! so many things in this universe are interconnected that one thing leads or preceeds the other. for example studying the theory of evolution often leads to the study of the origin of the earth, origin of primates and so on...
technically, according to the outside world(except upholders of quran alone and 19-ers) once you have rejected ahadith, you have rejected islam! most of us in this fourm, at this stage upholds quran alone.(an assumption, not a fact) so technically, because we question the quran, we are not believers anymore, are we! if you reject islam, please do not feel ostracized by the "muslims" in reality or this site(at least not from me)
keep it real bro, peace, rifat
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peace Z
I don't think Muhammad understood the Koran, he wrote it. Actually, I doubt the name of the author was Muhammad.
That doesn't matter, though. What matters is that we know the Koran is Muhammad's words. The words were INSPIRED by God, NOT written by God.
So whatever Muhammad wanted us to know is written in that book. Anything else we add to it's message is just an addition. No one would write an incomplete book, or teach an incomplete teaching.whoa that hit me like an anvil. 'Mohammed' wrote it, didn't understand it, but his name wasn't really mohammed? So who was the guy who lived the life of the 'mohammed' of the hadiths? This is the first time i heard this, I didn't read the whole 'message book' from this website yet, would you provide a link to your belief on the subject of mohammed the author?
Zenji is that a trick question lol? i dont know what you mean by islam anymore. I guess what's stopping me is fear that the sunnis are right all along, and only some of the hadiths are false...leading to my barbecue rendezvous after i die.
humble thanks for the advice, i realise more everyday that im not even close to reaching a conclusion
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Peace Zantetsuken,
i may leave islam for good
What's stopping you?
peace
Zenji is that a trick question lol? i dont know what you mean by islam anymore. I guess what's stopping me is fear that the sunnis are right all along, and only some of the hadiths are false...leading to my barbecue rendezvous after i die.No, it's not a trick question at all. I just wanted to find out what the hesitation was all about. Or perhaps if you have left 'islam' already. Just curious. I thought maybe the part that was holding you back, needed contemplation. If you had made up your mind, then why the questions? Just 'leave'.
But then you said something, which I believe you need to ask yourself - "i dont know what you mean by islam anymore"! Remember, You're the one who said "I may leave islam soon"... not me. So whatever it means to you, maybe it's worth going back to the basics... what is islam?.. and how do you 'leave' it?
Peace be with you.
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peace
I don't have a link. I just think it's possible that the muhammad in the hadith is not actually the person who the Quran was inspired to. Just a possibility. Because most hadith don't fit the muhammad character in the Quran, and it's unlikely that all of them were made up. So it could've been that muhammad (the praised one) was a title adopted by an arab leader from the Quran. That's what happened with Mecca and Kaaba. But this is not important.
But I wanted to tell you that the Quran IS the Hadith.
"The Message" is just the translation of the Quran, I think. Ask Layth about it.
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Peace Zantetsuken,
i may leave islam for good
What's stopping you?
peace
Zenji is that a trick question lol? i dont know what you mean by islam anymore. I guess what's stopping me is fear that the sunnis are right all along, and only some of the hadiths are false...leading to my barbecue rendezvous after i die.No, it's not a trick question at all. I just wanted to find out what the hesitation was all about. Or perhaps if you have left 'islam' already. Just curious. I thought maybe the part that was holding you back, needed contemplation. If you had made up your mind, then why the questions? Just 'leave'.
But then you said something, which I believe you need to ask yourself - "i dont know what you mean by islam anymore"! Remember, You're the one who said "I may leave islam soon"... not me. So whatever it means to you, maybe it's worth going back to the basics... what is islam?.. and how do you 'leave' it?
Peace be with you.
At first I thought you were asking me the question based on what you think 'islam' is. Even the possibility that you were asking it in an arrogant way if you consider yourself a 'muslim', like "what's stopping you from leaving?" meaning "there's the door, who needs you". Childish premature thinking on my part.
When I said I'm considering leaving it, I meant that I would reach the conviction that the quran is not from a god, but from a psychedelic experience or something, because the arguments of sunni or progressives were just as flawed as christians basis of belief to me.
Honestly I was going to say I now have a renewed interest in philosophical quran thanks to you guys... until I read pheonix's last post, which, no offense pheonix, I consider to be wishful thinking at it's finest. Do you know what is the possibility of your scenario being true?! The fraction is so small I wouldnt even write that many zeros. It's like you're proving Ali Sina's point, denial that the prophet could actually be that bad of a person, so you try and try to make a scenario were all this confusion could actually make sense in a good way. I'm sorry pheonix but I don't think you'll get alot of converts with that kind of argument. The burden of proof is on the believer's side, not the non-believers', and I haven't been able to proove it since I was born.
But then you are much more experienced in this forum than I am. I have been known for jumping to conclusions, please feel free to bitchslap me with your own reply.
peace
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peace Z
No offence taken, but I think you missed the part where I said "it doesn't matter." We shouldn't be concerned with who the prophet was or where he/she lived. All we have from that person is the Quran.
I think the "philosophical" approach to the Quran is the correct one. It requires no wishful thinking. -
Peace be with you Zantetsuken,
At first I thought you were asking me the question based on what you think 'islam' is. Even the possibility that you were asking it in an arrogant way if you consider yourself a 'muslim', like "what's stopping you from leaving?" meaning "there's the door, who needs you". Childish premature thinking on my part.
Well, I hope I clarified earlier that that was not my intention. Please, do not take my being blunt as arrogance... but I guess I'm a little biased. ;D (Thanks, OpenMind, for getting my back there )When I said I'm considering leaving it, I meant that I would reach the conviction that the quran is not from a god, but from a psychedelic experience or something, because the arguments of sunni or progressives were just as flawed as christians basis of belief to me.
Honestly I was going to say I now have a renewed interest in philosophical quran thanks to you guys... until I read pheonix's last post...
Apologies in advance for my candor, but I believe in these 2 sentences is where your reasoning is flawed. You rely on others to define who you are. You let the sunnis, the progressives, the submitters, the extremists, the christians, the psychedelics, and even phoenix1, apparently, steer you into different directions, intentionally or otherwise. (Not that I totally disagree with phoenix's theory, but that's another story altogether) And that is where you will always lose, by following (or lack of) what others are saying, doing.Note In the end, it will be between you and your Maker. It may be dissappointing to hear, but Phoenix will not be holding your hand at that moment.
Peace.
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Salam.
I think, brother, that you should seriously read Qur'an some more before you let go of Islam. I mean, don't follow people, don't take my post as valid, or anyone else's, don't listen to others, use your own brain as we are told in the Qur'an.
We have eyes, sound and brains to investigate and we will be responsible for using them.
Read Qur'an but in complete silence and very, very carefully.
It helps me.
Salam. -
Peace be with you Zantetsuken,
At first I thought you were asking me the question based on what you think 'islam' is. Even the possibility that you were asking it in an arrogant way if you consider yourself a 'muslim', like "what's stopping you from leaving?" meaning "there's the door, who needs you". Childish premature thinking on my part.
Well, I hope I clarified earlier that that was not my intention. Please, do not take my being blunt as arrogance... but I guess I'm a little biased. ;D (Thanks, OpenMind, for getting my back there ) )When I said I'm considering leaving it, I meant that I would reach the conviction that the quran is not from a god, but from a psychedelic experience or something, because the arguments of sunni or progressives were just as flawed as christians basis of belief to me.
Honestly I was going to say I now have a renewed interest in philosophical quran thanks to you guys... until I read pheonix's last post...
Apologies in advance for my candor, but I believe in these 2 sentences is where your reasoning is flawed. You rely on others to define who you are. You let the sunnis, the progressives, the submitters, the extremists, the christians, the psychedelics, and even phoenix1, apparently, steer you into different directions, intentionally or otherwise. (Not that I totally disagree with phoenix's theory, but that's another story altogether) And that is where you will always lose, by following (or lack of) what others are saying, doing.Note In the end, it will be between you and your Maker. It may be dissappointing to hear, but Phoenix will not be holding your hand at that moment.
Peace.
No problem, I was saying in my last post i realised your good intentions in that question. Thanks for pointing out to me that i rely on other's actions too much, but the reason for that is, my recent lack of faith has lead me to that,(that's also what lead to my lack of faith). What else does a non-believer have to compare to? I don't agree on what you said that I will lose by seeing what other's are saying/doing, that's all I have to compare.
Also, the reason I'm on the fine line between belief and non-belief, is because the tip of the scale depends on answering the crucial questions that i asked in my posts. Pheonix was the only one that addressed my question that, 'how could the prophet have meant the quran to mean these deep logic translations (e.g. hell is on earth, or god=truth) if you don't find any of this in hadith?' But his explanation didn't satisfy me. Can someone else please explain more or give a link to something that would address this botheration?
Some other questions were If anyone watches Benny Hinn or other prayer answering services, how do you explain that mushrik christians or mushrik muslims get their prayers answered equally as good if not better than quran-only muslims? Also I couldn't find a link, but if anyone heard about the study that people could manipulate random number generation by using their minds. This intentional flow of positive or negative energy could actually disprove all faiths, by showing that it's people, not a God, that can make 'miracles' or prophecies.
Alen I really appreciate your concern, it warms my heart. And I really hate to be one that bursts bubbles in return, but the quran used to help me too, anyone would feel at peace reading a book that tells them how they should live... if they believe in it. But I could be 100% wrong, I will continue to read the quran asking god to show me if I am wrong just in case.
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peace Z,
sorry for not being clear. What don't you understand about what I said?
look at the Genna and Gehanna thread.Its not how you explained it, its that you couldn't explain it. And I kind of took your indifference on the issue as a sign that you didn't believe in it that strongly. If someone claims that the moe that we know in the hadiths isn't the same one that wrote/recieved the quran, that's a huge assumption that needs proof. It's not enough to say his personality doesn't fit, as I could say that under most muslim's translation of quran, his personality in hadith DOES fit.
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peace
Yes, I don't believe in it strongly. I just put it out there as a possibility. But even if the hadith are talking about the prophet, it doesn't change the fact that they have distorted words from the Quran (kaaba, mecca etc) and you already know the kind of stuff they say about the prophet.
It's not about whether the personality fits or not, it's about whether his personality is good or bad in the hadith. I think it is bad. And I don't believe a bad person could've written the Quran.
To study the quran, we shouldn't use heresay (the hadith), but the context of the book and verifiable knowledge. -
Peace and blessings be with you Zantetsuken,
Thanks for pointing out to me that i rely on other's actions too much, but the reason for that is, my recent lack of faith has lead me to that,(that's also what lead to my lack of faith).
I believe it's the latter. But that's just my opinion.I don't agree on what you said that I will lose by seeing what other's are saying/doing, that's all I have to compare.
As you're entitled to yours as well.Also, the reason I'm on the fine line between belief and non-belief, is because the tip of the scale depends on answering the crucial questions that i asked in my posts. Pheonix was the only one that addressed my question that, 'how could the prophet have meant the quran to mean these deep logic translations (e.g. hell is on earth, or god=truth) if you don't find any of this in hadith?'
If I understand you correctly, you have questions in regard to quran, but you don't have the prophet to confirm what his understanding was, and you can't rely on hadith or Phoenix for answers... why don't you ask the Author? That is, if you believe they are God's words. I mean that in all seriousness.Peace