We Shouldn't Call Ourselves Muslims
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Peace be upon you Noble,
If the foundations are not right, there is no point in building.
I agree, and sincer there is no proof in a literal Abraham, no point in building off of that.
I am passed academic arguments, have been an academic most of my life, actions convince me more than words
Well, all you have for a literal Abraham is words, dont you see that?
now,
got a million dollars to spare for a worthy cause bro?I didnt get that?
Take care dude...
Peace be upon you as well
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Peace be upon you,
Oracles are mentioned in the Quran, Bible, and other books, is THAT enough for you also?
No need to respond to the question, its just for you to think on. I rather continue research.
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Peace noble,
Bro Tay
Long time we didn't chat, missed you...sun
I know I'm a bit late and this thread has fizzled, but I thought I'd give it a shot anyway...
You stated, "sammakumu almuslimeen" as your answer to my thoughts on Ibrahim. But, I think we all agree that Ibrahim did not speak Arabic, if he existed. Therefore, the text must be referring to a description and not a label. Otherwise, the text of "almuslimeen" would have been replaced with the actual word that Ibrahim used in the actual language he spoke.Further, is it coincidental that "muslim" and "islam" and "salam" share the same roots?
Why do we selectively translate some words from Arabic and not others? Is it only for the sake of the majority?
Peace,
Tay -
Yes and why was Arabic chosen and no other language to reveal the Quran, and on and on... we love arguing
Sure it is a description, but not easy to translate, a word chosen by God for us, let us use it, it is in Arabic as the Quran is, so be it...
I have no problem with it, even if I am a french native speaker, so? -
Salaams,
And may Allah make of us all muslims.
So Abraham and Ishmael are praying to Allah to make him and his progeny Muslim, so didn?t they ever became Muslim ? any records in there history?
Rabbana waijAAalnamuslimayni laka wamin thurriyyatina ommatanmuslimatan laka waarina manasikana watubAAalayna innaka anta alttawwabu alrraheemu
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
So even the people of Moses where Muslim, any records of theirs showing this to be the case?
Waqala moosa ya qawmiin kuntum amantum biAllahi faAAalayhitawakkaloo in kuntum muslimeena
Moses said "O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye submit (your will to His)."
So even Suleiman wanted the queen to become a Muslim so if he was one as well is there any record in their history to suggest this.
Alla taAAloo AAalayya wa/tooneemuslimeena
"'Be ye not arrogant against me, but come to me in submission (to the true Religion).'"
How where these people Muslim without knowing they where Muslim?
Wa-itha yutla AAalayhim qalooamanna bihi innahu alhaqqu min rabbinainna kunna min qablihi muslimeena
And when it is recited to them, they say "We believe therein, for it is the Truth from our Lord indeed we have been muslims (bowing to Allah's Will) from before this.
So who wants to call themselves muslim then?
God Bless.
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Peace,
Please do not post new topics dealing with the same subject when the previous topic is alive and kicking. The new topic has been merged with this. Thanks.
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Peace All,
Now to steer this ahead and sideways
How about the word Mu'umin ("Believer"?
Why is it not sticking and holding in other languages as do/did the words Muslim / Islam?
Also it is interesting that Allah mainly refers to Muslims as those who believed in the past tense when He is decreeing /ordering things for them.
But there is no word Al-Eeman (The Belief) to my knowledge anywhere in the Quran, whereas there is the word Al-Islam (The Islam).
Just a few bits worth pondering about to increase in knowledge...
Salam -
Peace noble,
Yes and why was Arabic chosen and no other language to reveal the Quran, and on and on...
Irrelevant. The language of the qur'an is that of the one who penned it. What we're discussing here is why we choose to translate some words yet transform others into labels.
we love arguing
I really do not. I enjoy fruitful discussion/debate, but there's nothing to love about arguing, imo.
Sure it is a description, but not easy to translate, a word chosen by God for us, let us use it, it is in Arabic as the Quran is, so be it...
You employ selective translation without a criterion...is this correct? Or does your usage of the words from the qur'an always remain in arabic?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay
Since I do not specialise in semantics or linguistics, I cannot answer much.
I find all translations of the Quran lacking (as I am a fluent arabic speaker).
Furthermore, I have been reading the Quran for the past thirty years, and got exposed to several different schools of thoughts and interpretations, and am inclined to say that each one has got some matters right and others wrong, yet they do not have the flexibility, or shall I venture the intellectual and moral integrity to accept that they might not be fully correct, and that their proponents might have some answers to what they are looking for.
As for me, I swallowed my pride several times when I found out I was wrong, and made several U-turns in my ways and approaches.
This applies to Free-Minds too.
Now why do you always feel as if I am criticising you directly when I make statements? Interesting...
The fact that the Quran was revealed in Arabic (in fact the Arabic of the lower non religious class instead of in the Nabatean liturgic language), has nothing to do with the one who penned it, but rather all to do with a promise (or prophecy) made to the People of the Book that there will come a Prophet from among the Gentiles whose name is Ahmed...
Salam Bro -
Peace noble,
Since I do not specialise in semantics or linguistics, I cannot answer much.
This is a fine answer in itself. I certainly respect the longevity of your career and the knowledge you've gained as a result.
Now why do you always feel as if I am criticising you directly when I make statements? Interesting...
"you...always"????
Here's the truth, noble. Your "we love arguing" comment was in response to my line of questioning. I do not agree that "we love arguing", because, well...I do not. Criticism, when constructive, is always welcome. Blanket vagueness really has no place in a discussion, imo.The fact that the Quran was revealed in Arabic (in fact the Arabic of the lower non religious class instead of in the Nabatean liturgic language), has nothing to do with the one who penned it, but rather all to do with a promise (or prophecy) made to the People of the Book that there will come a Prophet from among the Gentiles whose name is Ahmed...
So it was revealed in Arabic because of the promise/prophecy? Or was the promise/prophecy simply a foretelling of God's will, which remains unexplained?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay
I am not going to dodge your question Brother.
Fact is, I am still thinking about it.
Content versus form is a very intriguing contrast.
Is one more important than the other? I do not know.
For sure Allah has a plan, and it is unfolding. Are we meant to know about it, besides serving Him, probably...
Another interesting question is how are identities assigned to bodies, before a body is produced is it already male/female? does it already have a personality, a "nationality"... etc
If everything is interchangeable, as I think it is, there is no problem as to using Arabic to at least denote certain words of significance such as Muslim and Islam.
I think the reluctance by some "muslims" to do so, or try and steer away from this is because of the non-sense perpetrated in the name of those two words (terrorism and what have you).
But I guarantee you that it is a pattern that humans indulge into anyway, as soon as they become too dogmatic and righteous about what they are into. It happened to countless civilisations from the Pharaos of Ancient Egypt, the Sumerians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, the Muslims, the Catholics, and more recently the French, Germans, Americans, etc...
So using the word Submitter, say, instead of Muslims, somewhere down the line, if The God bestows favors on those who chose so, they will most surely transgress and exaggerate in their mandate.
I personally want to stick to the revealed words.
Ideally, learning Quranic Arabic will be a very advantageous thing for any muslim... What is the problem, we do emigrate to other places and find it not an issue to learn a new language, how about when you migrate from darkness into light?
All the best dude, and keep smiling, that is good too -
Peace noble,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. That's more like it
You've brought up some very thought provoking questions which I'd love to dive into but would prefer to stick with the topic for now, if you don't mind...
You mentioned
I think the reluctance by some "muslims" to do so, or try and steer away from this is because of the non-sense perpetrated in the name of those two words (terrorism and what have you).
and the proper follow-up, imo...
So using the word Submitter, say, instead of Muslims, somewhere down the line, if The God bestows favors on those who chose so, they will most surely transgress and exaggerate in their mandate.
I, personally, with no affiliation whatsoever, have found myself more and more reluctant to call myself "muslim" or anything, for that matter. When people ask, I just say, "I don't follow any organized religion, but I know there's a God."
Please understand that my goal in this thread is not to coerce anyone into seeing it my way, only to question the way we've been taught, because I don't think it stands up to reason nor the guidance within the qur'an.
So, yes, the word "muslim" has definitely been hijacked and comes with a ton of baggage attached, and this is all the doing of man, not of God. And yes, any substitute such as "submitter" will probably suffer the same fate down the line. People love labels and they love boxing others into tidy little packages.
This is reality, and I'm realistic (sometimes). But I don't have to accept a label for myself, nor does anyone else. I would much prefer to remain a mystery to someone and pique their curiousity rather than fall into a category. My limited understanding of the qur'an thus far has taught me that islam is about breaking barriers, not buidling the ultimate barrier. The words islam and muslim, among others, are not there for us to hold onto, but they are there to teach us. So we don't need to translate them and then attach to the translation. We need to translate them and understand what they're pointing to.
I hope I've made myself clear.
Peace,
Tay -
peace phoenix1
i can see no fish got hooked on your shirk thread >D
anyhow, it does not matter what i understand, there is no much control i have on anything.
but it is good not to be associated with bigots and the like,
what is beautiful is that i can say i have no religion and feel comfortable about it, comfortable that this is what I am meant to say as well, as i came to realise Islam is not a religion...
have i undestood well now?