Revised Article on Jinn

maxq

No problem Phoenix1 )

I agree with Arnold's ideology and am revising my understanding of the 14th and 15th aayaat of Al-Rahman

(He) created the human (form) out of inorganic matter that sounded like an empty pot. (And it was empty of a trace of the finished form). And created the jinn (psychological aspects, thought processes, that others cannot see or sense) out of a flickering flame of fire/chaos.

Of course, the context of the jinn implies this particular meaning for this verse and a select others, but not all of the verses where the word jinn is used.

I do not think many will agree with this, but it can be one of the meanings IMO.

Another interpretation is from Dr. Shabbir Ahmed (ourbeacon.com) implying civilized/urbanized/modern man in ayah 14 and nomad/caveman/prehistoric-man in ayah 15, which also makes sense.

ayman

Peace Layth,

Jinn serve God the same way humans do, that is by following the commands they are given by Him.

Thank you for the good answers. So next let's look at the commands that the god gives to the jinn in the great reading. From the passages that you brought, we can see at least the following commands

Obey the human.
Make enclosures.
Make statues.
Make pools of deep reservoirs
Make heavy pots.

The purpose of the jinn is to serve the god. By doing the above things the jinn serve the god. So this is the purpose of the jinn.

What do those tasks tell us about the purpose of the jinn? Are "plasmatic aliens" the first thing that comes to mind when you hear those tasks?

You and I are made of clay/mud literally. The composition of these matirials (minerals, water, etc) is what the human body is primarily composed of. By the same measure, Jinn are composed of the material which makes-up intense fire (energy, plasma).

Insects, trees and even hidden bacteria that we cannot see are made of those same clay/mud materials. Apart from the composition, we are not much like those creatures. Do you see the error that you make by taking "what one is made of" as the defining aspect?

All that iblis saw was "a creature made of mud". He took this as the defining feature. Let's not make the same mistake as iblis and take "a creature made of fire" as the defining feature of the jinn. Otherwise, we are just as superficial as our enemy. Let's focus on the purpose. The god didn't create the jinn in vain. What can we learn from the great reading about their purpose based on the commands that the god gave them?

Your comment on projectiles in space alwsays being there is not adressing the verses in mention at all...The verses say that the Jinn used to be able to sit in the outer heavens, but can no longer as they are now shot down/struck with projectiles. Had they been refering to the normal energy bombardment you are speaking of, then they would never have been able to sit and listen in the first place (i.e. it is a new advent, while the particles you speak of are as old as the universe).

Perhaps the projectiles would not affect the "jinn" until they became attached to the humans.

Whispers/suggestions can be internal and external. Your own mind suggests things to you (nafs), but at the same time other people can influence your decision based on simple suggestions or input. The Jinn (Satan in particular) are able to make such hints and suggestions as was made to our father Adam with the issue of the tree.

This didn't answer the question of how. Tell me brother, did an "external" jinn whisper to you? I am sure it had as with all humans. If so, tell us how. I am sure that you did something bad at one point or another. What made you do it? Was it internal or external? If it was external then how did it communicate with you? If it was internal then how did it communicate with you? If it was internal, was its communication in any way different than your thoughts? How so?

It is not a coincidence that the same exact term "waswas" (whisper) is used to describe the communication of the self and the communication of the jinn. How do you communicate with yourself? Can other people see what you are communicating to yourself or is it hidden like the jinn?

Satan sharing in peoples money and children maybe by sharing in the utilization of such resources for his cause (i.e. if you will listen to Satan, then he will suggest you use your money and power and progeny to the service of his cause...Look to the nations that spend billions of $ to spread Sunnism, or who send their children to die in US proxy wars such as Afghanistan in the late 80's, etc.).

I agree that the one increasing in corruption ("shaytan&quot shares in such resources. What is the logic behind wars and idolatry? How do people reach the decision to do such things? Was it "plasmatic aliens" who told a Sunni to spread Sunnism?

On the subject of Solomon and his staff...No human being would wait until a termite/worm ate through the staff of a person and he collapsed to know he has died (this process as I understand took days, not hours or minutes)...Humans would know by the movement or lack therofe of a person after a while.

Here in the US, there are several instances of homeless people who were sitting on a bench in plain sight of people and were found to be dead many days after they had died. I think that, unless you want to claim otherwise, in the matter of knowing the hidden, perhaps most humans are almost as clueless as jinn.

On the subject of Al-Laat & Uzza, they may indeed have been idols inspired by the Jinn just like the Jinn (Satan) inspired Adam to set-up a partner with God to His commands. Taking the Jinn as partners with God is simply done by listening to their advice where its conflicts with Gods commands, thus they become shurakaa`.

Brother, Al-Laat & Uzza are themselves jinn according to the analysis of the passages that I pointed you to. I am sure that you have seen Al-Laat & Uzza idols in your visit to Petra. Can those stones give any advice that you or anyone can listen or not listen to? What are those stone idols the product of?

Let's say I show you a stone and tell you that it is made of special material from heaven and if you kiss it and spin around it seven times, your sins will be forgiven and I tell you that I can sell it to you for a million dollars. Is a plasmatic alien inside that stone telling me to do it?

Your use of the term aliens made of plasma as a translation for Jinn is biased and misleading. Do you translate the word Insaan as beings made of mud/clay? By adding the component these being are created of fire/plasma you are adding words to the translation which are not there. One of the options is to translate Jinn simply as demons just like Insaan is simply humans.

I never suggested that "insaan" means "being made of clay". You suggested that the meaning of "jinn" is "aliens made of plasma". So this is what I used. If you like "demons" better then please put "demons" in all the occurrences of "jinn" and see if it fits.

And they made for The God partners the demons and their creation and they made up for Him sons and daughters without knowledge, be He exalted and He is above what they describe.

When Sunnis make the prophet, some stones and their clergy partners do they make demons partners?

The same thing can be said about 37158-159. Try substituting "demons" here and you will see the difficulty

37158-159. And they made between Him and the demons a kinship while the demons know that they are summoned. The God be most exalted above what they describe.

Who are those demons that people have made kinship with the god? Are they "plasmatic aliens"? Did you ever hear of any religion claiming that "demons" or even "plasmatic aliens" are relatives of the god?

How do humans enjoy "demons" below?

And at the time when He gathers them together, "O consorts of demons you took a lot of the humans" and their protectors from the humans said "our Lord, we enjoyed one another and we reached our term that You appointed for us." He said "The fire is your abode, everlasting in it, except what The God willed, your Lord is wise, knowledgeable.

Would you enjoy a "demon"?

Demons/Jinn (the bad ones) lie about the prophets the same way Satan lied about God...They say things that they know is untrue in order to mislead and misdirect.

So when in the late Abbassid period, people invented Hadiths against the keeping of dogs and encouraging their killing to curb the spread of rabies or for whatever reason, they were listening to demons?

Was it "demons" who wrote the Hadith books?

When you were following Hadith, were you listening to a demon? Take an honest look inside you and tell me if you could.

Peace,

Ayman

maxq

Salam Layth

If jinns are living beings with free will, who are made from energy/plasma, then how do you explain the following

2130 Are the unbelievers not aware (after this proclamation) that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that We exploded into parting? And that out of water We made every living thing? Will they not, then, acknowledge the Truth?

Something's gotta give...

phoenix1

peace maxq,
thank you for bringing out that verse. I think it is included to make sure that people don't mistake jinn for living beings. Living things are made of water. Jinn are made of fire. We are made of clay.
there is obviously symbolism at work here.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

No dear Phoenix, it is title-forming, which creates these contradictions. Jinn is not a title, but a description which refers to many things. It is very clear when people use their mind in stead of holding on to wrong approaches.

nadeem

Hi there,

So, when I say 'Computer' I'm referring to every- or anything that computes?

When I say 'My computer cost two thousand", it could actually mean "My calculator/clock/PC/Accountant/ cost two thousand". ?

I think it's unfair to assume that a general description can't serve as a specific title.

Nadeem

arnoldyasin

Peace,

The word 'computer' is a title of a sort of machine. The word jinn just means 'something or someone rarely seen or concealed by time, horizon, distance, reality and so on'. This description is the same as 'walking being', does 'walking being' refer to one species? No everything that walks. The same holds for the word jinn, which points out to anything hidden or rarelt seen that fits the context of the verses used. Plus the whole idea of jinn being a species contradicts many verses, as there are no laws given to jinns or any jinn-messenger mentioned, while the Quran is also clearly for the jinn beings, so this refers that these jinns are humans rarely seen, while other jinn mentioned in the Quran can mean totaly different things. See my article to see what i mean

http//19.org/index.php?id=91,417,0,0,1,0

phoenix1

peace arnold,
then what is made of fire? why does it just refer to it as "hidden" (because anything can be hidden) and not what it actually is?

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Read my article........

maxq

Unlike verses 14 and 15 of Al-Rahman, there is no symbolism in 2130... this verse is clearly stating that the universe formed out of a "big bang", and all life in the universe is water based, or rather it emerged from water...

peace maxq,
thank you for bringing out that verse. I think it is included to make sure that people don't mistake jinn for living beings. Living things are made of water. Jinn are made of fire. We are made of clay.
there is obviously symbolism at work here.

phoenix1

peace

so are we really made of clay?

maxq

As I said, verses 14 and 15 of Al-Rahman may have symbolic connotation...

(He) created the human (form) out of inorganic matter that sounded like an empty pot. (And it was empty of a trace of the finished form). And created the jinn (psychological aspects, thought processes, that others cannot see or sense) out of a flickering flame of fire/chaos.

refer to 5016, and 230 why I used this interpretation.

However, I also agree with what Arnold's position that he has presented in his article "Intelligent Design out of clay" for verse 14 of Al-Rahman.

I presented a complementing explanation for verse 15 considering the meaning of jinn as hidden

Neurons in the human brain function literally through electrical discharges that cannot occur in nature without being chaotic. They cannot occur in a cohesive and coherent pattern as they do in the brain, and give rise to our conciousness and thought processes, something hidden to the outside.

So we have been given a body made of various organic and inorganic substances, but without what happened in verse 15, we would be just like pottery (lifeless) We have been given life, intellect and emotions through our firey disposition fashioned into coherent form.

arnoldyasin

peace

so are we really made of clay?

Here is an quotation of one of Holland's leading scholars, Professor dr. Stephen B.J.Menken, Chief Evolutionbiologist of Amsterdam University
"With the making of the first step to the primal soup which contains all basicelements for life to a living organism, we stumble upon a lot of problems. One of the problems is the UV-radiation of the sun. We are protected by our skin and the earth's ozonlayer from the worst radiation. The young earth didn't have a protecting ozonlayer, so the UV-radiation reached freely the atmosphere and the top waterlayers. A second problem is that the most simple organic substances can move in all directions in a watery substance. For life to emerge, it is necassery that the substances remain together, a third problem is the sensitivity of DNA and RNA, mainly the carbonic-sugars, which brake apart easy.
There must have happened two things will the substances of the primal soup evolve to something more complicating, to life. The substances must remain together and protected against harmfull influences from outside. The second most important theory is that of the clayparticles. These particles are common on earth. They're layered, smaller then two micrometre and can bind all organic molecules and make them react with each other. On the surface of the clayparticles, can by example, RNA been build up from simple molecules. Next to that, enhance the clayparticles, the forming of fatty-acids, in which an enviroment can evolve which is seperated from the outside world. The walls of every cell, of plants, animals and fungies, are build up out of double layered fatty-acids. In a solution of fatty-acids together with clayparticles, bindings emerge of double layered fatty-acids. If on the surface of the inclosed clayparticles, molecules get 'stuck', this can be most important for the origins of life, then by this theory can we explain the build of the primitive cell."

As for your approach to the neurons Maxq, i rather believe 'fire' describes the nature of the emotions and not directly the way of communications between cells that create the emotions, as with anger, hormones are involved too.

maxq

As I mentioned, it is an explanation... not a claim what I believe is what I have presented in the translation of the verses.

maxq

Emotions such as anger do not eminate... they are a response to electrical input to the limbic system, specifically the hypothalmus that issues commands to release the hormone...

maxq

But this is a digression... I respect your opinion Arnold D

Layth

Peace,

If jinns are living beings with free will, who are made from energy/plasma, then how do you explain the following

2130 Are the unbelievers not aware (after this proclamation) that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that We exploded into parting? And that out of water We made every living thing? Will they not, then, acknowledge the Truth?

There is no contradiction as the above verse is relating to us a fact, that life emerges/emerged from water (it would have been conclusive had the verse been reversed in saying every living thing was made of water).

You can see the reversal in the verse below, where God speaks of the creatures made from water and defines them specifically as organic life that moves on 2 feet, 4 feet, or crawls

"And God created every moving creature from water. So some of them move on their bellies, and some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. God creates whatever He wills. God is capable of all things." (2445)

Also, this concept that only living things can be made from water are entirely dispelled just by asking if God and His angels are also made of water? God tells us He is like light, does that mean He is not alive?

maxq

so you are confirming that jinn is not a title of a species that is a living race made out of fire literally

maxq

If you notice the first part of the verse, it mentions the creation of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE... if jinns are part of the universe, then they must also be included in the creation within the confines of the universe. And then the second part of the verse refers to ALL LIFE in the universe... not just the "organic" one... the implication is clear Layth. I do not think there is anything more that can be added to the discussion.

ayman

Peace Layth, Maxq, all,

There is no contradiction as the above verse is relating to us a fact, that life emerges/emerged from water (it would have been conclusive had the verse been reversed in saying every living thing was made of water).

I don't see the difference.

In Arabic (as well as in English),

"And we made from the water everything alive"

Has the same meaning as

"And we made everything alive from the water"

You can see the reversal in the verse below, where God speaks of the creatures made from water and defines them specifically as organic life that moves on 2 feet, 4 feet, or crawls

"And God created every moving creature from water. So some of them move on their bellies, and some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. God creates whatever He wills. God is capable of all things." (2445)

2445 confirms what we know from 2130. I don't see those as saying totally different things.

Also, this concept that only living things can be made from water are entirely dispelled just by asking if God and His angels are also made of water? God tells us He is like light, does that mean He is not alive?

Comparing the god and the "jinn" is a poor analogy because we are clearly told in the great reading that there is nothing like the god. So anything that applies to his creatures doesn't apply to him.

As for those, that you call "angels", before you make any unfounded conclusions, please tell us what those are made of according to the scripture?

If you notice the first part of the verse, it mentions the creation of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE... if jinns are part of the universe, then they must also be included in the creation within the confines of the universe. And then the second part of the verse refers to ALL LIFE in the universe... not just the "organic" one... the implication is clear Layth. I do not think there is anything more that can be added to the discussion.

Thank you for your excellent observation about 2130.

Peace,

Ayman