verse 4:3 and polygamy
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Peace Siki
Marriage, wedlock, matrimony, nuptials. None of these words convey the meaning of sanctity in the legal union of a man and a woman . Marriage/wedlock explains only one aspect this union and in the Quran it is mentioned as zaw wajna_kaha_ /coming together or joined as partners/pairs (537).Even in the English language the lack of the honorable union is treated in a manner which reflects the sanctity of it.
honour 1 High respect, esteem, deferential admiration; an expression of this; glory, credit, reputation, good name. ME. b spec. The chastity or purity of a woman; a woman's reputation for this. LME.
shame 2 a Disgrace, loss of esteem or reputation; an instance of this. OE. b Infliction of disgrace or injury; expression of reproach in language or behaviour. Freq. in do a person shame below. ME-E17. c spec. A woman's loss of chastity or a violation of her honour. Now chiefly in child of shame, a child born to an unmarried woman. arch.
From the Oxford Dictionary, I have not included all the meanings for both words.
If you find a word in English that will explain this aspect of the union between a man and a woman I guess it will be probably honorable or something close. A woman becomes honorable by protecting her body from men out side of her marriage. Possibly the reason for the Bible to say.
Marriage is said to be "honourable" (Heb. 134),
Coming back your question, take the example of Employment or labor laws which protects employee rights, mainly. Pay, statutory deductions, leave, Hours of work, termination, discrimination, Human rights and health and safety, etc. Sometimes we find employers who violate these laws. But that does not mean the employment laws do not protect. Even consumer protection, freedom of expression or human rights; all these laws offer protection. If it was not for the legal protection how will you seek redress in case of breach? Any system of protection legal or otherwise is not 100 % guaranteed. But imagine a world without employment laws or consumer protection.
Marriage provides legal protection.
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Peace Siki
Marriage provides legal protection.
Dear warner
I am sorry , i could only understand your last line.
Yes marriage provides legal protection ,,, only ,,and that is what i am saying , it does not protect her/him from lewdness/fornication after being in wedlock. Her / his lust is not locked or deactivated ( rather quite often it is Activated). But now, she/he has an instrument to handle it , and the ones who are seeking to follow God's message will be able to protect them selves from Fhahisha (will manage to remain chaste)
That is why these verses depict a sense, which is, "a desire to remain chaste with the help of an honorable arranged/announced bond", in contrast to uncontrolled sexuality
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
You got to understand labor law and consumer protection brother,they can be useful in life.
Siki "a desire to remain chaste with the help of an honorable arranged/announced bond",
Which verse is this?
You have forgotten the ujoor and if this is 425 you have not included few other
clauses.And after the ?desire to remain Chaste? if one partner commits Fahisha can the other seek legal remedy?
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Dear warner
Peace Sik
Which verse is this?
5-5
yousaf ali,
,,,,,,, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith,,,,Peace Siki
And after the desire to remain Chaste if one partner commits Fahisha can the other seek legal remedy?
The Quranic /legal remedies for committing fahisha, are the same for partners as well as singles.
Peace Siki
You got to understand labor law and consumer protection brother,they can be useful in life.
They are practically useless/non existent, where i live.
Peace Siki
You have forgotten the ujoor and if this is 425 you have not included few other
clauses.Brother ! i ain't dissecting the verses, literally,, we have done that many a times in these threads.
i am just trying to analyse the sense precisely, which almighty is trying to convey, and i am surprised that you are not getting it.
peace
siki
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Dear Siki
Siki The Quranic /legal remedies for committing fahisha, are the same for partners as well as singles.
The rules are different for single and married.
As for Fahisha 415 -17 deals with single and 242 is for married. Husband can take away part of the ujoor in case of Fahisha.
But why only Fahisha ?
There are many verses dealing with husband and wife which are not applicable to singles.
Can the boyfriend do what is done in 246-9
Can single claim inheritance from their boy friends.
How about claiming maintenance from boy friend.The legal union between a man and a woman has both the legal protection and the protection from shame. A woman protected from such shame is sometimes referred to as chaste. This is the reason I tried to drill in to you both tha "marriage is honorable" and also the reversal of the same concept i.e. "the honorable relationship between a man and a woman is marriage".
Your mistake is you are trying to get the same meaning for every derivative of HShN.
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Dear Warner
I knew, this was coming when i decided, not to go into a detailed explanation of my answer.
while writing the relevent answer , i meant
If somebody engages in fornication , he/she if convicted will go through the prescribed punishment regardless weather she/he is married.
Of course i know the repercussion by the relatives, and he can be a husband or a father , or a brother,
she may be divorced , confined, (by fathers,or brothers), abandoned (thrown out) , or may be even killed , if she was here.Dear Siki
Your mistake is you are trying to get the same meaning for every derivative of HShN.
No , i am not taking every occurrence of "Hassan" in the same meaning , i am trying to thrash out the most suitable meaning in the context of a verse, and trying to make you understand the correct sense of the word used in the relevent verses.
Brother i shall make another attempt!
The marriage bond protects, no doubts about it, the protection is broad , and covers multiple aspects, ( which i do not want to list, because i expect an average reader to be aware of them)
But here in the context of these verses(4-24,4-25, 5-5) the particular protection which is highlighted is management of ones sexuality, as the "hassana" is used in contrast with lewdness, and hence this particular sub protection turns out to be Chastity.Brother think once again , How does a wed lock protect a women/ man from committing fornication?
Does it disable their sexuality mechanically?
Tell me ! what gets disabled for a married individual in a sexual context , in comparison to a single?
peace
siki
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What i understand out of this verse
who ever of you cannot afford to marry a believing MOhsinnat , should , out of MMa , of believing category , a maiden, and allah knows your belief, you are one from the other, so marry them with the permission of their Masters/guardians, so give them their dowers, like MOhsinnats, not for outpouring lust(ghairmusafihat),and not taking as a paramours, and when in protection then if they commit Fahisha, is half upon them, what is upon mohsinnats, the punishment. that is for him , among you who fears falling in sin,and that , if you endure ,that is better for you,and allah is most merciful, forgiving.
If due to any reason one is unable to marry a believing mohsinnat category of women, then it is being recommended that he may consider an other possible option, which is "he should seek a believing maiden from MMA through proper permission of the person who posses her" Allah knows what are we up to, deep in our hearts, and We all are from one another ( humans ),so one must Give due ujoor/rights/wages to her and marry her in the same way what is prescribed for a normal Mohsinna, not just as an out let for our lusts , or as a "keep", And when they are in this bond/protection/wed lock/They have been provided with a tool with which they can control their sexuality , some thing which can help them to stay chaste , and then even after this , if they commit fahisha , they go through half the punishment what is prescribed for a regular Mohsinna , this alternate option is for the one who fears that he may commit /fall into sins because of not having an out let for his sexuality, but if one can endure/wait/ control his urges and continue/manage to stay chaste without this option, it is better,, and of course Allah is most forgiving merciful.
peace
siki
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MMA = Mottahida Majlis e Amal?
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Dear warner
There could be many words in arabic to describe the marriage wed lock etc , but it is important , as to what kind of word has been used for describing it.
Because usage of a particular word would though cover the issue in general but would stress upon a particular meaning in specific.WA IZA AHSINNA, is used in connection with Mohsinnat(Hallal women who are chaste) in a verse which suggests an alternate option to control / licensing sexuality for the one who is finding it difficult to follow God's commandment of maintaining Chastity (No Zoj, NO MME, Yusha are you happy now ;D)
The core issue is Chastity, hence God picked up a word which relates /has a root with hsn , mohsinnat , only in this particular ayah to convey a certain sense, using this word in another ayah to describe marriage, could be wrong/ inappropriate, and may convey a wrong understanding.
peace
siki
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Mohsinaats of al Nissa
All halal good/chaste/righteous women(minus the prohibited 14 as in 4-22, 23 . and known fahishas or zanis, and of course not an ailien Female ;D because she has to be from Nissa)
Mohsinnat al mominat(halal)
The Red,, but sub categorised to believing
mohsinnat minal zin o auu-to -ul kitab(Halal)
The Red,, but sub categorised to the women who are followers of the previous scriptures.
Mohsinnat al mushriQat(Haram for marriage only)
The Red ,, but sub categorised to Mushriqs.(Allowed for marriage, only in a situation for a believer, if she/he is a Zani, 24-3)
MME might consist of the following women
Mohsinnat al mominat, mohsinnat of the believing category, mohsinnat of the mushriqat, and the prohibited 14 as described in 4-22 and4-23, who will not be Mohsinnats.
we would call any maiden belonging to all the above categories as a fatayat,
Ones own young daughter/sister/in law (etc) would be fatayats but not mohsinnats
some body out of prohibited 14 might make it into your MME, who can not be categorised as Mohsinnats,
According to my knowledge, All the verses which talk of mohsinnats , go in line with the above mentioned explanations. Any contradiction or problem in understanding, please point out , i shall be most willing to discuss.
peace
siki
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As-Salaamu Alaikum all,
It appears to me that the original topic of "Re verse 43 and polygamy"...has become "what is mohsinaat". Maybe it is just me since I haven't been completely following all of the posts or contributing. But I think the issue of polygyny still needs some dialogue and discussion, so I will join back in when you all get back to it ;D or directly connect each post dealing with "mohsinaat" to the relevance that it has with polygyny.
Otherwise, I may be forced to start another thread on it )....wait...I better look first. I bet there probably is another one on it that is already active!
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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peace all,
i agree with imam here.... many of these pages can seem off topic - they do belong to the mma threads and mohsinat threads - but i think polygamy is linked with them also - and it still needs more dialogue because nothing has been clarified i feel...
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Salaam Tanweer and all
I do not think the verse says ""marry off". It is "marry". The verb is a bit problematic, because it could mean both, but in Arabic, you "marry off " the male, not the female. Look at verse 2221 where we have this verb. It says "do not marry the female mushriks...and do not marry off the male mushriks". The verb is different because it is in the present tense, hence the "tunki7 marry off; tanki7 marry. But when it is in the command (unki7u) it is the same for both meanings.
Marrying the mothers of the orphans is conditioned by the ability to provide for them, and not by being fair. (Being just is obligatory, not a condition, even if one has only one wife, or none). This marriage may not be consummated, so they will be "milkul yameen". That's why they do not show in the verses of inheritance (nor does milkul yameen). It is not a normal marriage, but a marriage to protect the pride and dignity of the orphans, least people would demand why this man is providing for them, and this would hurt the mother, and so the children.
Hi! I saw this tread and it is not Kong time ago so sprey for writing this answer right know. However I want to ask you a question
You said it is used tunkihu if it refers to men and tenkihu if it refers women
In chapter 2 verse 230 it says tenkiha zevcen gayrah so the woman marry (tenkihu) another Man that means in this verse tenkihu refers to man
I do not know Arabic
If in this verse it is refers to man (and is used tenkihu) then there is no rule that we can say it is tenkihu when it is refers to women and tunkihu when it refers to men
I would like to know your ideas about it since I do not know Arabic.