verse 4:3 and polygamy
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peace all,
i was recently discussing this issue with a friend of mine... and he pointed something out to me which i had never considered before... and i read some of the older posts about polygamy but noone seemed to ask this
firstly - my interpretation of this verse has always been that you have one wife, and if you want to care for orphans, then you are allowed up to 3 more wives who are the mothers of the orphans
But what struck me is the way it is phrased - why mention the 2 or 3 or 4 first as if the starting point was 2, and then add an exception (cant treat them fairly) then just the one?
Isnt that implying that a minimum of 2 is the norm, unless you cant treat them equally being the exception?The PM translation reads
And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those whom you see fit of the women two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or to whom you are committed to by oath. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.Marry 2 or 3 or 4, unless you fear you wont be fair? When the quran is so specific with wording, why does it imply that 2 is the starting point?
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Peace ay,
That is a mistranslation. It does not say "two" but "twos". There are mistranslations of other parts of that verse too, in the traditional translations, as you will find out in bro Yaseen's article. For example, it is not "those whom you see fit" (male chauvinistic translation), but "those who have consented with you". It is not "two, three and four", but "twos, threes and fours" which changes the meaning quite a bit.
I don't think that this verse talks about polygamy at all, although I think that polygamy is allowed in islam based on different reasoning.
For more info please go through this article
http//www.geocities.com/yaseen_q/polygamy.html
Then please go through all of this looooong discussion I had on this forum in the past on this topic
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12031.0
Let me know what you think after you have gone through all that. The point you raised actually sort of confirms that the verse most likely has been mistranslated and makes bro Yaseen's understanding more likely.
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thank you brother tanveer for the links.... i read through the posts, and i see now that it is a clear mistranslation of "two, three or four" - so if it means 2s and 3s and 4s ... ill have to look into it more because - if it means marry them off in twos threes or 4s... why would there be an upper limit to how many people you can marry off?
And also orphans are children right? so they would not be married off at all....
i need to look into the meaning of this verse more i think... it is very confusing right now! -
Peace ay,
if it means marry them off in twos threes or 4s... why would there be an upper limit to how many people you can marry off?
I think "twos, threes, fours" is an idiomatic expression implying "in groups".
And also orphans are children right? so they would not be married off at all....
The verse is talking about marrying off "mothers of the orphans", and not the orphans themselves (see 4127). The "yataama alnisaa" in 4127 refers to the "alnisaa" in 43 and can only mean "mothers of the orphans". I think 4127 is also mistranslated as "the orphan's mothers whom you wish to marry"; the correct translation should be "the orphan's mothers whom you wish to marry off" if 43 is translated as "marry off".
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Peace Adley, all,
The Qur'aan allows provision of a will. The possibilities not covered by the laws of inheritance stated in the Qur'aan can be addressed by a will.
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Peace Adley,
The person marrying more than one should be required to write a will legally at the same time as he gets married the second time and to revise that will at each subsequent marriage, and then the scenario described by you cannot happen !
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Peace Adley,
It should be the responsibility of the islamic government to enforce the will thing and should be made a requirement for any polygynous marriage. Thus this cannot be the proof of polygyny not being allowed in the Qur'aan. I had already discussed this point of inheritance in polygynous marriages with brother Ayman before and was refuted with the explanation I just gave you.
Do you have any other proof of prohibition of polygyny in the Qur'aan ?
Please go through my lengthy discussion on this issue in the past in which all my points against polygyny were refuted one by one, except for one point which I think has not been convincingly refuted (it was refuted by saying that my translation was not correct which I think I can counter refute), and I want to see your proof first before I divulge that point just so I do not make you biased and also to see if you come up with the same point or maybe a fresh one !
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12031.0
I edited to "polygyny" because polygamy also includes polyandry which is prohibited by the Qur'aan (see 424).
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Peace Adley,
I would like to take this opportunity to welcome you back to the forum after a conspicuous absence welcome
Sorry for forgetting my manners !
We missed your posts here, and contrary to what you said elsewhere in another thread, you have contributed a lot and hope you keep those posts coming ! Keep up the good work !
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Peace Tanveer,
Thanks for the welcome again ;D
I'll read that link first and see what I come up with.
Actually, if this inheritance thingy can be refuted, then I will change my stand in poligamy issue -- meaning I'll agree that poligamy is indeed allowed=adley=
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peace all,
wouldnt it be that the estate would be divided equally (as per quran) among all the wives/daughters/sons/relatives, if there was no will?
and back to verse 43 - if indeed it does mean marry off the orphans mothers in groups... then we have no upper limit set for men and their multiple wives right?
althought that does make sense when you think about the prophet who had more than 4 - so he wouldnt have been going against Gods law.... i always wondered why he was an exception when he was meant to be the role model...
im still confused!!! lol
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Peace ay,
wouldnt it be that the estate would be divided equally (as per quran) among all the wives/daughters/sons/relatives, if there was no will?
Reference from al-qur'aan please.
and back to verse 43 - if indeed it does mean marry off the orphans mothers in groups... then we have no upper limit set for men and their multiple wives right?
Marry off the orphans mothers in groups does not mean marry off all of them to one person but each to a different person in form of group wedding to save expenses.
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peace tanveer,
i cant reference from the quran because i dont know .... i was asking if this was the case as it is what i assumed... sorry
also 43 - yeah ok so it means marry them off....so what does it mean when it says if you fear you will not be able to deal justly with them then just one - marry off just one at a time? why would a group wedding not allow u to be just?
also when i said about an upper limit - i meant in general - the quran does not prohibit polygamy right? so men can marry more than one wife right? so if this verse was the one that set the limit to 4 wives.... and now it turns out that it has been misunderstood - where is the limit for the number of wives a man can have? does that make sense? S sorry i feel im confusing the issue!
thanks for your input! much appreciated!
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Peace ay,
i cant reference from the quran because i dont know .... i was asking if this was the case as it is what i assumed... sorry
To my knowledge, there is no verse in al-qur'aan that gives the kind of provision that you mentioned of dividing the assets equally among all wives/sons/daughters/relatives. Please study the inheritance verses for details.
also 43 - yeah ok so it means marry them off....so what does it mean when it says if you fear you will not be able to deal justly with them then just one - marry off just one at a time? why would a group wedding not allow u to be just?
also when i said about an upper limit - i meant in general - the quran does not prohibit polygamy right? so men can marry more than one wife right? so if this verse was the one that set the limit to 4 wives.... and now it turns out that it has been misunderstood - where is the limit for the number of wives a man can have? does that make sense? S sorry i feel im confusing the issue!
The verse 43 could still mean "marry" instead of "marry off", which is to be decided yet. If it means "marry" then it would mean marry the orphans mothers in groups of 2, groups of 3, or groups of 4, with the limit of maximum of 4 wives at the same time. Thus, only in case of orphans mothers, it is preferable to marry them in groups (upto 4 at a time) but if one cannot then only one.
Even if it is "marry off", maybe "twos, threes, fours" does not mean in groups with unlimited number, but only upto 4 at a time, and that is a number chosen by The God just like He chose 100 lashes for zina, and not 101 or 120 or 80.
If it is "marry off", then group wedding might be unjust to an orphan mother who does not wish to be married in a group wedding or has a potential partner available right now and does not want to wait until all other orphan mothers have found a suitable partner also and a group wedding is organised. Remember that per 43, we have to obtain their consent first according to the correct translation and not "whom you see fit".
Some people with Classical Arabic knowledge claim that in verse 43 it cannot mean "marry off" and some claim that it can mean that, so this issue has to be decided according to Classical Arabic grammar rules, and the way the word has been used in al-qur'aan elsewhere. We also need to find out if "twos, threes, fours" can mean only upto groups of four, or it allows the general meaning of "groups without any limit" according to Classical Arabic language and use elsewhere in al-qur'aan.
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Peace ay,
The arguments given against 43 meaning "marry off" are in the following post by brother Ayman, who is an expert of the Arabic language
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12031.msg91024#msg91024
I think that the limit of wives in polygyny would be 4 not because of 43, but because of definition of zina according to the qur'aan. Please see the following posts for definition of zina
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12031.msg89825#msg89825
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11629.msg80746#msg80746
So if four people witnessed a MARRIED man and woman having intercourse, then the man and woman ARE a "zani" and "zaniyah", even though they are MARRIED.
Thus the limit in a polygynous relationship has to be 4 wives because if a man has 5 wives then it will become zina because then there will be 4 witnesses to the intercourse between the husband and the 5th wife.
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Salaam Tanweer and all
I do not think the verse says ""marry off". It is "marry". The verb is a bit problematic, because it could mean both, but in Arabic, you "marry off " the male, not the female. Look at verse 2221 where we have this verb. It says "do not marry the female mushriks...and do not marry off the male mushriks". The verb is different because it is in the present tense, hence the "tunki7 marry off; tanki7 marry. But when it is in the command (unki7u) it is the same for both meanings.
Marrying the mothers of the orphans is conditioned by the ability to provide for them, and not by being fair. (Being just is obligatory, not a condition, even if one has only one wife, or none). This marriage may not be consummated, so they will be "milkul yameen". That's why they do not show in the verses of inheritance (nor does milkul yameen). It is not a normal marriage, but a marriage to protect the pride and dignity of the orphans, least people would demand why this man is providing for them, and this would hurt the mother, and so the children.