verse 4:3 and polygamy

Samia

Salaam all

The meaning of "muthna, thulath and ruba3" is "double, triple and quadriple". This is important to understand that before marrying a mother of orphans, the priority is to marry a normal marriage. So "double" is the real wife and one mother of orphans. This means the maximum is three mothers-of-orphans, if we stop at "ruba3"; or it might be understood as "and so on", then the number has no limit. This also is in favour of the marriage being just formal.

siki

So ! what about the polygamy? looks to me as if it is allowed with no limit, as it was already in practice and was not forbidden with a clear commandment. Allowing prophet to continue, could also be a supporting argument.(though not a very significant one) and of course brother Tanveer's understanding regarding two sisters,leads towards a definite YES
sikandar

palestina

peace sis samia,

i think bro tanveer has the correct meaning of muthna wa thulatha wa rubaa - 2s, 3s and 4s

if it was double, triple, and quadruple - it would read - thunathy wa thulathy wa rubaa'y

is that right?

Samia

Salaam siki

Polygamy is NOT allowed for no reason. There is ONE and only ONE condition for that. Even then, it is a "formal" marriage. This wife will not inherit, as the marriage was not for her to benefit, but mainly to protect the children IF there's harm to them from receiving provision from a strange man.

and ay

I do not know of thunathy ,; Muthna is the light form of the word muthanna (=double), ruba3 is the light form of ruba3i (=quadriple) and thulath is the lighter form of thulathi (triliteral). These are single nouns not plurals as in two's, three's four's...
Examples a ruba3i a geometrical form of four sides
thulathy a geometrical form of three sides.

I also do not understand the meaning of marrying them (or even marry them off) in two's, three's, four's...why not (in a crowd) simply?

unknownuser

Peace Samia, all,

Sis ay,

doesnt a witness have to actually see the act and not just know it is happening?

I don't see anywhere in al-qur'aan where there is prohibition of the husband being with more than one wife physically at the same time or prohibition of one wife on seeing her husband with the other wife physically. Thus the multiple wives can actually see and be witnesses of the act.

Bro Sikandar,

Man ,, , you have started to disappoint me

I don't know what that is supposed to mean especially when I am still confused about the issue.

So ! what about the polygamy? looks to me as if it is allowed with no limit, as it was already in practice and was not forbidden with a clear commandment. Allowing prophet to continue, could also be a supporting argument.(though not a very significant one) and of course brother Tanveer's understanding regarding two sisters,leads towards a definite YES

I agree with the above with two exceptions

Polygamy includes polyandry which is forbidden (see 424). I think only POLYGYNY is allowed, with the exception of sisters.
There is a limit of 4 wives at a time because of the definition of "zina" as mentioned in an earlier post.

Sis Samia,

The meaning of "muthna, thulath and ruba3" is "double, triple and quadriple".

I looked up in Lane Lexicon. It clearly says that "muthna" is "two at a time" and "thulath" is "three at a time", which is the same as "two's" or "three's", or "group of two", and "group of three". So one can "marry" maximum of 4 mothers of orphans at the same time, which would imply no wife beforehand.

or it might be understood as "and so on", then the number has no limit.

There would be a limit of maximum of 4 wives at same time because of the definition of "zina" as mentioned in an earlier post. That would explain The God stopping at "four at a time".

I also do not understand the meaning of marrying them (or even marry them off) in two's, three's, four's...why not (in a crowd) simply?

It would simply mean "marrying them" or "marrying them off" two at the same time, three at the same time, or four at the same time, with a limit of maximum of 4 wives at the same time because of the definition of "zina" as mentioned in an earlier post.

I think the guardian of the orhans is being advised to marry their mothers in group of two, three, or four at the same time to save wedding expenses and to be able to provide for multiple orphans and their mothers as soon as possible.

I do not think the verse says ""marry off". It is "marry". The verb is a bit problematic, because it could mean both, but in Arabic, you "marry off " the male, not the female. Look at verse 2221 where we have this verb. It says "do not marry the female mushriks...and do not marry off the male mushriks". The verb is different because it is in the present tense, hence the "tunki7 marry off; tanki7 marry. But when it is in the command (unki7u) it is the same for both meanings.

If that is true, then 43 can only mean "marry", which would not go against polygyny (with the exception of sisters) as per al-qur'aan. There is no verse that prohibits polygyny in general except with sisters.

What about 2432, how would you translate that verse ? Would it be "marry" or "marry off" and why ?

This marriage may not be consummated, so they will be "milkul yameen". That's why they do not show in the verses of inheritance (nor does milkul yameen). It is not a normal marriage, but a marriage to protect the pride and dignity of the orphans, least people would demand why this man is providing for them, and this would hurt the mother, and so the children.

Even then, it is a "formal" marriage. This wife will not inherit

ANY marriage may not be consummated. This marriage may not be consummated, but CAN BE CONSUMMATED TOO. Thus it is a normal marriage. There is no verse saying that this marriage with orphans mothers cannot be consummated so that allows consummation also.

This wife will inherit also otherwise eliminating such wives from inheritance will be a gross injustice. The islamic state should make it compulsory for the husband to make a will and make it a part of the marriage contract in case of multiple wives. If what you are saying is true, The God would have specifically mentioned this in the inheritance verses and would have made it clear that such marriages cannot be consummated.

There are other relations that do not show in the inheritance verses also, which does not mean those relations are not possible ! That is why there is a provision of making a will, which would cover any situation.

Quote from Ayman from http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12031.msg91024#msg91024

There are so many possibilities left out of the inharitance signs. They are merely guidelines. This is why we are told that those guidelines only apply for whatever is remaining (if anything) after execution of a will or paying off debts. Therefore, things like how much does a grand daughter take if her grandfather died and her father was already dead are not spelled out. Would she take her father's complete share despite her being female or would she take half her uncles' share or nothing at all? This is why it is important to have a will.

Polygamy is NOT allowed for no reason. There is ONE and only ONE condition for that.

I did not see "illa" at the beginning of 43, so 43 is not an exception. Whenever The God makes exceptions to a general rule, He clearly states the general rule followed by "illa"/except to give exceptions. We should take the word of The God as it is and try not to impose our preconceived notions/desires. If what you are saying is true, then please quote the relevant verses which state that.

siki

Brother Tanveer !you have been "Bang on" except those 4 wives witnessing the Zina with fifth o-----------come on Dear------ you are much better than that.

samia ! i would give due weightage to Tanveer,s explanation regarding inheritance, this should hardly be an issue to make us think against polygamy, he is got a very valid argument. i would re-emphasise ,

Polygamy was being practiced at the time of revelation, and it was not stopped ,
i am with you, as for as marrying orphan,s mothers is concerned , it is not marrying off but marry them, and it is a marriage, a proper marriage(tanveer is right)

The only thing i am confused about is weather this limit of "4 orphan's mothers" thing is valid for Muhsinat as well? or there is no upper limit?

Brother tanveer!in my opinion, "taking inference from Zina ayat and using it to deduce the upper limit for wives,is probably the weekest argument you have ever posted" .

palestina

Brother Tanveer !you have been "Bang on" except those 4 wives witnessing the Zina with fifth -----------come on Dear------ you are much better than that.

samia ! i would give due weightage to Tanveer,s explanation regarding inheritance, this should hardly be an issue to make us think against polygamy, he is got a very valid argument. i would re-emphasise ,

Polygamy was being practiced at the time of revelation, and it was not stopped ,
i am with you, as for as marrying orphan,s mothers is concerned , it is not marrying off but marry them, and it is a marriage, a proper marriage(tanveer is right)

The only thing i am confused about is weather this limit of "4 orphan's mothers" thing is valid for Muhsinat as well? or there is no upper limit?

Brother tanveer!in my opinion, "taking inference from Zina ayat and using it to deduce the upper limit for wives,is probably the weekest argument you have ever posted" . elektro

peace all,
yes i agree siki - bro tanveer you have made some very good points but the idea of orgies going on in polyganous marriages - this zina explanation is weak...

mabye it does mean marry up to four and not marry off in groups of four? god knows best!

i think polygany is like the slavery issue - while it was not banned outright - it was given strict social guidelines to adhere to - and made so that eventually it would fade out perhaps?

but this verse is still very confusing to me!
thanks all for your input

ay

peace

siki

Tanveer and sis samia
you folks did an excellent job defining "Muhsinat"and Ma malakat "emnakum"

Now could you come to the Mutta thread and throw some light on 4-24? your experience and wisdom is badly needed,,
siki

unknownuser

Peace ay, Sikandar, all,

Sis ay,

mabye it does mean marry up to four and not marry off in groups of four? god knows best!

It seems from the posts of brother Ayman and sis Samia that it can only mean "marry" in 43.

Thus the correct translation of 43 in my understanding would be

43 And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who have consented with you of the women (orphans' mothers) two at a time, and three at a time, and four at a time. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or to whom you are committed to by oath. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.

Bro Sikandar,

Brother tanveer!in my opinion, "taking inference from Zina ayat and using it to deduce the upper limit for wives,is probably the weekest argument you have ever posted" .

That is why I earlier accepted that I am still confused about some aspects of this issue ???

It seems that the limit of having a maximum of 4 wives at a time is limited to orphans' mothers (provided the phrase "mathna wathulatha waruba3a" cannot idiomatically mean "in groups with no upper limit" in Classical Arabic), and is not a general rule because of the following two reasons

In the verses where the Prophet's wives are mentioned The God does not mention any upper limit to the number of wives he can have.
To my knowledge, there is no verse in al-qur'aan that restricts the total number of wives in general to 4.

Even in 43, it talks about marrying group of two, three, or four at a time, and does not say upto 4. Thus theoretically, a male believer can marry a group of 4 orphans' mothers at one time, and then at another time can marry a group of 2 orphans' mothers at a time, thus having a total of six wives, provided he can be fair with all of them.

We also need to determine if the phrase "mathna wathulatha waruba3a" can idiomatically mean "in groups" without a specific upper limit in Classical Arabic.

Now could you come to the Mutta thread and throw some light on 4-24? your experience and wisdom is badly needed,,

Can you please elaborate what exactly is the question about 424, because there was extensive discussion on this verse in the thread I referenced before, and perhaps the relevant posts in that thread might have already answered your question

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12031.0

siki

Dear Bro tanveer

That is a better understanding and i feel we are a step closer to the truth,

Now my question,( i posted in Muta thread which is missing now)-------

In 4-24 it is being said , that you can not istumtutukum(which is either marriage or temporay marriage as some say) with "MOhsinnat" accept, Ma -Malakat Emnakum,

if we take istumtatumm as marriage then it is being said that we cannot marry MOHSINNAT except Ma malakat emnakum,

Now lets see what God is saying in 4-25,

it says if you cannot afford to marry (yenkuhu) Mohsinnat" then marry Ma Malakut emnakum

4-24 is prohibiting a certain kind of contract with Mohsinnat , and yet 4-25 is saying if you cant afford to marry Mohsinnat then marry Ma malakat emnakum?
looks to me that God here is talking of two different kind of contracts , out of which he is banning Mohsinnat in one

in 4-24 it is istumtatum, which cannot take place with Mohsinnat but he is allowing us to do a certain contract(nikkah) with Mohsinnat by telling us that if we cannot afford to marry Mohsinnat then go for Ma Malkat emnakum or fatayat from momineen in 4-25.

if we fit in temporary marriage here, it probably makes sense for all the definitions you have worked out.
It would make sense that God is forbidding temporary marriage with committed women(married,engaged or Fatayat)and restricting Muta with only independent,free believing women, and Ma malakat emnakum,

lets sort this out,

sikandar

siki

unknownuser

Peace brother Sikandar,

It seems you have a lot of confusion which is understandable because the issue is complicated ! confused

First, please go through my reply to you in the muta thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13732.msg117476#msg117476

There is no temporary marriage being talked about in any of these verses.

To clarify any confusion let me define the categories of females per al-qur'aan. All females are protected according to al-qur'aan; they are either self protected females (mohsanat), or parent/guardian protected younger females (fatayat). Thus females can be divided into two categories Mohsanat and Fatayat (mohsanat are contrasted with fatayat in 425).

Mohsanat = self protected females

Fatayat = parent/guardian protected younger females (parent/guardian dependent)

Mohsanat belong to three categories

self protected independent (neither engaged nor married, includes divorced, widowed)
self protected by marriage (married females)
self protected by oath of engagement ("ma malakat aymanukum"/engaged from among the mohsanat)

When 424 mentions about "mohsanat", it includes all these 3 categories, and says that a male believer cannot marry category #1 or #2, but can only marry category #3. What it means is that to marry an independent self protected female, one has to get engaged with her first, making engagement OBLIGATORY for marriage to "mohsanat". It also means that a man cannot marry an already married woman, thus forbidding polyandry.

The "ma malakat aymanukum" being mentioned in 425 are from the "fatayat" and are NOT the "ma malakat aymanukum" mentioned in 424 which are from the "mohsanat".

Thus there are two different kinds of "ma malakat aymanukum" being mentioned in 424 and 425

424 "ma malakat aymanukum" from "mohsanat" (older females that are engaged)

425 "ma malakat aymanukum" from "fatayat" (parent/guardian protected younger females that are engaged)

Please keep the above in mind to avoid any confusion.

In 4-24 it is being said , that you can not istumtutukum(which is either marriage or temporay marriage as some say) with "MOhsinnat" accept, Ma -Malakat Emnakum,

"Istamta3tum" in 424 is the consummation of marriage after "nakah"/marriage with ANY of the women that are not one of the forbidden categories in 422-24.

if we take istumtatumm as marriage then it is being said that we cannot marry MOHSINNAT except Ma malakat emnakum,

As I said above, "istamta3tum" is not marriage, but consummation of marriage. The context of 422-24 is "those forbidden to marry". The word "except" before "ma malakat aymanukum" in 424 indicates that those "ma malakat aymanukum" are a subset of "mohsanat" from the older females (they are those mohsanat min al-nnisa that are engaged). Thus it means that a male believer cannot marry the "mohsanat" from the older females, except those mohsanat that are "ma malakat aymanukum"/engaged to him. Therefore, the only way to get married with the self protected independent older females is to get engaged to them first !

Now lets see what God is saying in 4-25,

it says if you cannot afford to marry (yenkuhu) Mohsinnat" then marry Ma Malakut emnakum

The "mohsanat al-muminat" in 425 refers to the self protected believing women, and the "ma malakat aymanukum" in 425 is from the "fatayat al-muminat" (parent/guardian protected younger believing females that are engaged to you).

Thus it means that if you cannot get engaged with one of the believing "mohsanat" for the purpose of marriage, then get engaged with one of the believing "fatayat" !

Hope that helps !! Go through my post 5 times with concentration, because this issue is a bit complicated and took me a long time to comprehend !!

Roshan

Peace

I must admit, I had always thought this verse had stated that if you have orphans which you feel you cannot deal with, then of those that are women, marry them off in groups.

I feel this verse was revealed in a time when women lived in a misogynistic society and hence had fewer opportunities. Women were probably not allowed to do much and hence marriage was important for them. Another example of this sort of society is seen in the testimony verses (if the woman errs than another can remind her - the testimony of 1 woman = 1 man, but woman is more likely to err due to her lower role in society).

I feel this is what the translation says and I also feel this is the most logical interpretation.

siki

Tanveer asalumo alakum.

I have a reasonable hope that we shall be able to improve upon the previous understanding,

I spent 10 hours to go through your posts on the issue however there is still a chance that i may be missing something,, so lets take it

To start with your understanding of word istumtatum" as consummation of marriage is wrong. In an earlier verse(4-23) God is describing consummation of marriage with a very different Arabic word twice in a row, and there is no confusion in that verse about consummation of marriage,

4-23 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your stepdaughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated (Dakhultum)the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

"istumtatum" has most probably some other meanings , what is that ? could you check up?(as i don't have any such tool)

Now lets see Ma "Malkat emnakum". this literely means , what your right hand posses,,,,, or we can take it as what you have power upon what is yours, the ones under the fist and hence do not have a free choice to make an independent decision,and you decide their fate..
Meaning slave girls, or , war booty,

I do not agree with the engagement theory, it does not make sense to be a pre condition for marriage.
kindly try and put my understanding in to verses and see weather it makes sense(i am still not sure).

I agree with you regarding "Fatyat" who are young girls under the custody of fathers or gaurdians who usually do not play any role in decisions regarding their marriages and hence are kind of given away, they are rated with "ma malakat emnakum" for punishment of adultry or lewedness (half)
peace
siki

unknownuser

Peace bro Sikandar,

Thank you for your patience. This topic is a very complicated and not well understood one and takes a lot of time to understand.

To start with your understanding of word istumtatum" as consummation of marriage is wrong. In an earlier verse(4-23) God is describing consummation of marriage with a very different Arabic word twice in a row, and there is no confusion in that verse about consummation of marriage,

4-23 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your stepdaughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated (Dakhultum)the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

"istumtatum" has most probably some other meanings , what is that ? could you check up?(as i don't have any such tool)

Different words have been used to mean consummation of marriage in al-qur'aan. For example

?Okdat alnikah,? Marriage?s physical bond, i.e. intercourse (See 2235, 2237)
?M(a)Ss(a)Ss? (For example 2236, 2237, 3349?)
?D(a)Kh(a)L? (For example 423,?)

"Istamta3tum" is derived from the root "Miim-Ta-Ayn" and from Lane Lexicon

Miim-Ta-Ayn = to enjoy/benefit, gift, anything useful/advantageous, goods (e.g. utensils, furniture), a commodity.

Istamta3 = He benefitted, or profited by it/had the benefit, use, or enjoyment, of it/he enjoyed it.

In the context of 424, it is translated as benefitted/profited from them or enjoyed sexual relations, thus implying consummation of marriage

Hilali/Khan .................. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever AllKnowing, AllWise (424)

Free-Minds .................. and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Yusuf Ali ..................... Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

Shakir ........................ and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

"Desiring chastity and not illegal sex" in this verse clearly means that the benefit/enjoyment is after marriage and thus "istamta3tum" can only be referring to consummation of marriage (enjoyment).

Now lets see Ma "Malkat emnakum". this literely means , what your right hand posses,,,,, or we can take it as what you have power upon what is yours, the ones under the fist and hence do not have a free choice to make an independent decision,and you decide their fate..
Meaning slave girls, or , war booty,

I do not agree with the engagement theory, it does not make sense to be a pre condition for marriage.
kindly try and put my understanding in to verses and see weather it makes sense(i am still not sure).

"Ma malakat aymanukum" cannot mean "slave girls, or war booty"; that is completely wrong. Please see the following article

http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malakat.htm

"Ma malakat aymanukum" means "those whom your rights (hands) possess", which is an idiomatic expression meaning "those committed to you by oath".

There are two types of family relations in al-qur'aan

?Ulu al korba? Those related to you biologically.

2 ?Ma malakat aymanukum? Those related to you by your oath.

In the case of a single man this is the oath of engagement to marry. In the case of a custodian this is the oath of adoption or financial support. Following are the list of verses where this expression occurs and the context of each occurrence

Who you made an oath to marry (43, 424, 425, 236, 3350, 3352, 7030)
Who you made an oath to adopt/take custody of (2431, 2433, 2458, 3355)
Who you made an oath to financially support in general (433, 436, 1671, 302

Thus the context determines the kind of oath.

Please read the following article for detailed explanation

http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malak.htm

I agree with you regarding "Fatyat" who are young girls under the custody of fathers or gaurdians who usually do not play any role in decisions regarding their marriages and hence are kind of given away

The bolded part of your quote above is incorrect. According to 425, one cannot marry the "ma malakat aymanukum" from the fatayat without permission of their parents/family/guardians, which is a very important role in decisions regarding their marriages !

425 ......................... You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the independent women of the retribution. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.

Peace

siki

Dear brother tanveer
before i start my post , let me declare that i used to be a Sunni and hence would be more than happy , if Muta is proved wrong. however i fear that they could be right on this issue.

So now lets first sort out consummation of marriage ,
i checked your ayahs and here is my opinion,

2-235 is talking about announcing the intrest, or engagement to the widowed or divorced women, and God is saying that you may do that, however the ayah says that do not make the contract of marriage (nikah) till the time is over(idaat)
so here Aqda nikah is not consummation or physical bond but official contract
because most likely , God does not want to officially tie these women as wives before it is ensured that they do not carry any child from the previous husbands(legality issues)

Now lets see what 4-23 says
God is precisely using the word DAKHULTUM, which is penetration , so God is making it very clear that until and unless you have penetrated these women , their daughters could be halal for you if you divorce their mothers and like to get married to their daughters, but once you have penetrated any women , her daughters are haram for you for the life time, so here physical act of penetration is governing the issue,
so now lets see the third option of tamasu.

33-49 and 2-236 and 2-237, is very precise again, here the issue is after the bond of nikah is tied, then if you divorce them before touching them (tamasuu) you may reduce their Mehar to half. God is saying if you had some physical sexual enjoyment ( which may or may not end up into penetration,) you owe them their full appointed money, makes sense to me,

so what i deduce out of all this is , that this tamatta or tamasu is sexual enjoyment as a whole. however "dakhul " is the physical act of penetration, and a subset of "tamassu" (in your language) legality of the bond is described by the word Aqda nikah, (which is not engagement or announcement as in 2-235) which God is prohibiting in case of widows and divorcees unless their waiting period is over.

Now if you agree with me till here , we can go further on 4-24 and handle istumtatum and other definitions like Ma malakut or what could be mohsinnats?

(note, in my opion PM translations has wrongly translated tamasuu as sexual intercourse evey where, because penetration is a must to describe sexual intercourse)
peace
sikandar

Samia

Salaam all

I would like to draw to your attention the fact that "milkul yameen" are both males and females, not just females.
Another point is that all the verses of the quraan, save some exceptions, address both genders; including verses 422-25.

unknownuser

Salam bro Sikandar,

You are right that "3uqdata alnnikah" means "marriage contract", but the wording is "ta3zimoo 3uqdata alnnikah" in 2235 which means "decide/settle/resolve/fulfill/perform the marriage contract/knot" which means "consummate the marriage", and all translators have translated it as such.

"Mass" means "touch/strike/come together" and in the context of marriagem "tamassoo" is any sexual contact and includes the meaning of "coming together as in sexual intercourse", and means consummation of marriage.

You yourself are agreeing that it means sexual enjoyment as a whole and can include sexual penetration

God is saying if you had some physical sexual enjoyment ( which may or may not end up into penetration,) you owe them their full appointed money,

siki

No boy,,

i would request you to be very specific and precise in understanding the spirit of the meanings of each word,(as you have always been)
"Tazimmo aqda nikah" does not mean to consummate the marriage , but to perform , complete, tie the knot,
yousaf 2-235 nor resolve on the tie of marriage till the term prescribed is fulfilled.

shakir and do not confirm the marriage tie until the

sher ali And resolve not on marriage tie until the prescribed period reaches its end

pm And do not commit to the marriage vows until the required interim is reached in the scripture

Brother we have to see the precise difference , in correctly understanding the issue, The issue here is to tie the official or legal knot of nikah before idaat,(probably to preclude the possibilty of pregnancy and legality of the offspring) because if she turns out to be pregnant , you cannot marry her till the child is born.

In 4-23 , it is the act of penetration weather legal or illegal(see here the word NISA is used not ZauJ), with a women , when done, makes her daughters haram for you for ever they will always be your step daughters, and hence any such act or thinking would be incestuous, {if you have been intimate with a women but you have not performed the intercourse,(gone in her DAKULTUM) and you come across her daugter , you may still change your mind , leave the mother and marry the daughter}.

However same is not the criteria for sisters, once you leave one , you can go far the other one , that is why , Tajamuu( jammah) Bain ul akhtain is used, which is collecting two sisters at one time

Brother beauty of the Great reading(i luv this definition of ayman) is the accuracy and precision of the words , which does not leave any confusion.

Tazimoo Aqda tul nikah is not

as Dakhaltum and

Dakhaltum could be a part of Tamassu or may be not

Each word and its usage is precise and specific to an independent situation in a certain ayah

So now if you are with me till here , should we move forward and re evaluate different definitions of MUMINNAT MOHSINNAT FATYAT MA MALAKAT EMNAKUM, because until and unless we correctly define and understand the basics we cannot reach to the correct divine meanings , A little misunderstanding on the basics , and we encounter dead ends, which we try and bridge with flimsy/ far fetched assertions, and hence defy common sense and reasonable logic.
peace
sikandar

unknownuser

Peace bro Sikandar,

i would request you to be very specific and precise in understanding the spirit of the meanings of each word,(as you have always been)
"Tazimmo aqda nikah" does not mean to consummate the marriage , but to perform , complete, tie the knot,
yousaf 2-235 nor resolve on the tie of marriage till the term prescribed is fulfilled.

shakir and do not confirm the marriage tie until the

sher ali And resolve not on marriage tie until the prescribed period reaches its end

pm And do not commit to the marriage vows until the required interim is reached in the scripture

Brother we have to see the precise difference , in correctly understanding the issue, The issue here is to tie the official or legal knot of nikah before idaat,(probably to preclude the possibilty of pregnancy and legality of the offspring) because if she turns out to be pregnant , you cannot marry her till the child is born.

PM translation is not what you quoted but as follows

2235 ............And do not consummate the marriage until the required interim is reached in the Scripture.............

Other translations that translate as "consummate the marriage" are as follows

Pickthal And do not consummate the marriage until (the term) prescribed is run.

Hilali/Khan And do not consummate the marriage until the term prescribed is fulfilled.

I agree that we have to be precise. That is why I am saying that "ta3zimoo 3uqdata alnnikah" in 2235 does not mean "tie the marriage knot" but "confirm/resolve/settle/fulfill/perform the marriage contract". Perform, confirm, or resolve the marriage contract is not the same as tie the marriage knot.

Confirming the marriage contract implies that the contract has already been made before and is now confirmed by consummation.

Similarly resolving the marriage contract implies that the contract has already been made before and is now resolved by consummation.

Similarly performing the marriage contract implies that the contract has already been made before and is now performed by consummation.

You would be right if it had said "do not enter into the marriage contract", or "do not make the marriage contract".

I am not an expert in Arabic or Classical Arabic language, so we need to research this from Classical Arabic dictionaries like Lisan Al-Arab etc. and ask those who are expert in Classical Arabic language as to what exactly does "ta3zimoo 3uqdata alnnikah" mean in context of 2235 and also see what "ta3zimoo" means as used elsewhere in al-qur'aan.

In 4-23 , it is the act of penetration weather legal or illegal(see here the word NISA is used not ZauJ), with a women , when done, makes her daughters haram for you for ever they will always be your step daughters, and hence any such act or thinking would be incestuous, {if you have been intimate with a women but you have not performed the intercourse,(gone in her DAKULTUM) and you come across her daugter , you may still change your mind , leave the mother and marry the daughter}.

However same is not the criteria for sisters, once you leave one , you can go far the other one , that is why , Tajamuu( jammah) Bain ul akhtain is used, which is collecting two sisters at one time

Brother beauty of the Great reading(i luv this definition of ayman) is the accuracy and precision of the words , which does not leave any confusion.

Tazimoo Aqda tul nikah is not

as Dakhaltum and

Dakhaltum could be a part of Tamassu or may be not

Each word and its usage is precise and specific to an independent situation in a certain ayah

"Tamassoo" means ANY sexual contact in context of the marriage verses and includes "dakhaltum" and thus implies consummation of marriage. This is solid (reference Lanes Lexicon). Thus "dakhaltum" is a subset of "tamassoo".

siki

Tanveer
Aslamo alakum Bro,
Pm translation that i use, is same what i posted . please check here
http//www.submission.org/quran/webqt.php

Brother tanveer wrote,
Other translations that translate as "consummate the marriage" are as follows

Pickthal And do not consummate the marriage until (the term) prescribed is run.

Hilali/Khan And do not

That is exactly what i mean , some of the translators have not been careful in
translating this sentence, and i only quoted the correct ones.

Bro tanveer wrote
I am not an expert in Arabic or Classical Arabic language, so we need to research this from Classical Arabic dictionaries like Lisan Al-Arab etc. and ask those who are expert in Classical Arabic language as to what exactly does "ta3zimoo

Yes you are right ,arabic is not our mother tongue, but brother we have an advantage of urdu, in which almost 50% words of arabic are used, so i guess , you and me should be able to make out something about this "aqda tul nikah,

Brother as far as different legal languages that you have posted , i dont think there is any need to get into that since both of us are fully aware of aqda tul nikah , and we have a reasonable understanding what God wants to convey here.

The Net impression i get from your post is that you kinda agree to the understanding of these issues which i have been trying to make you understand,
So Bro, half job is done and lets move forward to different kind of women described in Quran

To start with could you please post your understanding of different kind of terminology used by creator?

peace

sikandar