verse 4:3 and polygamy
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Salaam All
Mean while i read the two articles of Brother Ayman regarding "Ma Malkat Amnna kum or what your right hand posseses" on brother tanveer's recommendation.
I worked on all the ayats that the articles mention regarding the subject word, let me now say, THAT in my opinion BROTHER AYMAN'S INTERPRETATION/THINKING IS NOT CORRECT
As brother tanveer has derived his understanding (regarding the different kind of women in quran) from those articles so his understanding is FAULTY
"Ma Malakat EMNAKUM are the ones who are possed by the right hand , in your fist , the ones upon whom you have full control,the people who's fate you decide, to whom you are like a master, or in other words they are SLAVES, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE,"
NOT that i luv to believe in this ,( but GOd knows the reasons and wisdom) the Conventional historical understanding of the subject category is TRUE
I would not like to get into details here, however anybody feeling other wise, or still believes in brother ayman's interpretations, and likes to debate, he/she may open up a relevent new thread, i would gladly accept the challenge and we shall sort out the issue in great depths.
let me get back to the subject and reassert, that 4-24 is most probably indicating the shia practice of MUtta or temporary marriage
lets sort this out?peace
sikandar -
Peace bro Sikandar,
Any discussion/debate starts going down the drain when one party starts making categorically absolute statements like "what I am saying is the truth", and "what you or someone else is saying is wrong".
If you think that someone else's understanding is wrong then you need to prove that by bringing your evidences based on authentic sources instead of making absolute statements with no solid basis. Just saying that something is wrong or right does not make it so !
To clarify, I don't accept everything someone else has written as the truth unless it is supported by solid evidence and I have verified it myself, and my understanding is not blindly derived from someone else's articles. I use my own God given faculties to discover the truth and distinguish it from falsehood. As far as others' views are concerned, I try to study all the views and then follow the best ones after pondering on them and verifying them myself.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
I have already stated my understanding that 424 does not refer to "temporary marriage" and have already given my evidences from al-qur'aan and from Classical Arabic dictionary in some of my earlier posts. I have not found any evidence of "temporary marriage" in al-qur'aan and the word in 424 that you are basing this idea on does not even mean that. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this and leave it at that at this time.
I can say the same thing as you have said "what I am saying is the truth and your understanding is faulty", but that does not make it true and stifles any further meaningful discussion. At this time I feel that any further discussion on this topic is futile given your attitude of "I am right and you and others are wrong". If you wish you can pursue this issue further with others but I am out for now !
handshake peace
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Peace tanveer
Bro i am sorry if you felt that way, indeed i have not been careful in formulating my sentences.
Brother! you have worked the most on subject verses, and relevent definitions of women ,I request you to stay and help solve this riddle.your are right i must refute in writing with proper logic and reason for every one to make up their minds. So for the time being i will keep the topic of mutta pending here and would post my refutation to brother aymans understanding of Ma malakat emnakum" in a seprarat thread .
let me reassert my stance,
1 i worked hard on "Ma Malakat emanakum" from all angles, and i am certain to a reasonable degree that brother Ayman,s understanding regarding these people may be incorrect.
2 i am still working on the terms "MOhsinnat" and "Fatayat" and am quite close to an understanding which makes sense and fits in all the relevent verses with no contradictions.
- and if these pieces fit in the jig saw puzzle, then definitely there are verses in quran which advocate or point towards sexual relations with females , other than the conventional Marriage(Nikah), Mutta being one of them having a reasonable possibility.
peace
sikandar -
Salaamun alaikum, I am new to the forum.
After reading the many posts regarding polygamy, and doing research on my own, I have come to understand that, according to The Book, POLYGAMY IS NOT ALLOWED. I base my understanding from the following facts
The God is very specific when using words. In the case of polygamy, four specific words have not been considered in any of the previous arguments posted and seem to have been overlooked.
In looking at all of the ayats that refer to these four particular words, which are SISTER, BROTHER, DAUGHTHER AND SON, I found that according to The Book Alone, the definition for
Sister (akhta) / Brother (akh) ? Brethrens of the Deen (be it male or female)
Daughter (bint) / Son (Ibn) ? Blood RelativesIn 1928, it reads, ?O SISTER of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man?? In this ayat the word for sister is (akhta).
In 6612, it reads, ?And Mary, the DAUGHTER of Amran, who guarded her chastity?? In this ayat, the word for daughter is (bint).
In context, 422, reads, ?And marry not women whom your fathers married, except what has already passed (salafa). This surely is indecent and hateful; and it is an evil way.? And in 423, when the ayat reads, ??and that you should not have two sisters together, except what has already passed (salafa)?? In this ayat, the word for sisters is (akhta). These two behaviors were past practices and were indecent, hateful and evil.
My understanding from the above ayats is that when the God refers to SISTERS in 423, it is SISTERS IN THE DEEN, not BLOOD SISTERS. The universal understanding of this ayat from the posts that I read is that ?sisters? in this ayat meant BLOOD SISTERS which is a misunderstanding according to the ayats and the definitions above.
Furthermore, it is my understanding that 43 is taken out of context.
If you look at the context, (41-14), verse 1 is the opening of a warning to fear the God in all matter for which persons nominated as guardians over orphaned children and widowed women are responsible, for which they will be called to questions and give accounts.
Verse 2 makes it clear what is forbidden to practice with regard to the property of their wards.
Verse 3 has nothing to do with marriage. It refers to the guardianship of the orphaned children and the widowed orphans and how to manage and protect their financial affairs. This ayat speaks to social guidance with respect to guardianship. Given the context, nikah means contract in this verse, a social contract and not a marriage contract. The guardian could enter into a contract to take care of groups of children, if the guardians were financially able to do so, however, if they feared that they could not financially manage these groups of children, which would mean that there would be some inequity and as a result, injustices, then they were to take care of only one.
Verse 4 has nothing to do with dower, a marriage gift, (ujr, in Arabic, see 3350), which is an obligatory marriage gift (see Q.2 236-237 & 3350 ? Fa-Ra-Dha). As a result of the contractual arrangement, these truthful women were to be given a nihlah, a free gift, and if they choose, they could give back a portion, or keep the entire gift.
Verse 5 instructs the guardians not to hand over the properties to the wards in their custodial care, but feed and clothe them out of it and give them a good education.
Verse 6 instructs the guardians to supervise these orphans until they reach the age of marriage, then, if they find them sound of judgment, they are to hand over their properties to them. They are not to spend it extravagantly before the orphans grow up. A guardian who is rich should abstain from taking fees, but a poor one may consume some reasonable fees. When properties are handed over by a guardian to orphans it should be done in the presence of witnesses and let the fear of the God be enough to keep their accounts properly.
Verse 7 instructs how the shares in the property should be apportioned.
Verse 8 instructs the guardians, when the time came for the distribution of the property, whoever attended the division, at that time, even if they were not entitled to a share, the guardians were to give them something out of it and they should be treated kindly.
Verse 9 instructs those who were concerned about the future of their offspring, to make a will in clear words with the fear of the God.
Verse 10 gives clear warning about those guardians, at that time, who abused their responsibility.
Verses 11-12 begins instructions on how WE are to divide our estates.
Verses 13-14 informs us that this is the God?s guidance and whomever disobeys His guidance will be punished severely.
Moreover, in 3350, with respect to the universal understanding about the exception made for the prophet, the exception to the rule in this ayat was not that the prophet was given special permission to have more than one wife, to the contrary, he was given special permission to be exempt from paying the obligatory gift, if the believing woman decreed herself to the prophet, but the marriage gift (ujr) was made obligatory (fard) on the other believing men. This was to spare the prophet from any hardship.
In 3352, it clearly tells the prophet (and in 420 tells the believing men) about exchanging one wife for another and in 651 instructs him on divorce.
Additionally, the Book speaks of ?wives of the prophet? (3332), there is no where in the Book that says that he had them ALL AT ONE TIME. This could be understood to mean those women whom the prophet was previously married to and then divorced, the one he was presently married to and whomever he might marry in the future, if he got divorced. These are specific instruction to those women, whoever they might be.
Based on the above, this is my understand as to why polygamy is not allowed in Islam.
Your comments are appreciated.
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Peace be with you
Welcome to the board
Did you consider the following verse and please think of its relationship with verse 43.
4127
Yusuf Ali They ask thy instruction concerning the women. Say Allah doth instruct you about them and (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed and yet whom ye desire to marry as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.Wa yastaftu_naka fin nisa_'(i), qulilla_hu yuftikum fihinn(a), wa ma_ yutla_ 'alaikum fil kita_bi fi yata_man nisa_'il la_ti la_ tu'tu_nahunna ma_ kutiba lahunna wa targabu_na an tankihu_hunna wal mustad'afina minal wilda_n(i), wa an taqu_mu_ lilyata_ma_ bil qist(i), wa ma_ taf'alu_ min khairin fa innalla_ha ka_na bihi 'alima_(n).
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Peace TBA, all,
Welcome to the forum, TBA welcome
Sister (akhta) / Brother (akh) ? Brethrens of the Deen (be it male or female)
"Brothers" in al-qur'aan does not mean "brothers in the system/deen". Where The God mentions "brothers in the system/deen", He says so
911 If they repent, and they honor the connection, and they contribute towards betterment, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.
335 Name them by retaining their fathers' names. That is more just with God. But if you do not know their fathers, then, name them as your brothers in the system and your patrons. There is no sin upon you if you make a mistake in this respect; but you will be responsible for what your hearts deliberately intend. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
What about Joseph's brothers, were they not biological brothers but brothers in the system/deen (Ch. 12) ?
If "sister" means "sister in the system/deen", and "brother" means "brother in the system/deen", then ALL muslim women and ALL muslim men will have a share in every muslim's inheritance
412 ................ And if a man or a woman has no one, but has a brother or sister, then to each one of them is one sixth, but if they are more than this then they are to share in one third. All after a will is carried through or a debt, which does not cause harm. A directive from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.
4176 They seek a ruling from you, say "God gives you the ruling for those who have no descendants. If a person passes away and has no children but has a sister, then she shall receive half of what he leaves behind. And he will inherit from her fully if she has no child. However, if he has two sisters, then they will receive two thirds of what he left behind; and if he has siblings (ikhwatan), male and female, then the male shall receive twice what the female receives." God makes clear to you that you do not stray; God is aware of all things.
If "sister" means "sister in the system/deen", then ALL muslim women are forbidden to get married with !!! How will one get married then ?
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters...................
Then "father's sisters" would mean ALL muslim women, and "mother's sisters" would mean ALL muslim women also as they are all "sisters in the system/deen", with two implications
Firstly, why mention them separately as father's sisters and mother's sisters when they are referring to the same group ?
Secondly, NO MUSLIM WOMAN would then be lawful for the Prophet to marry, because every muslim woman will be a daughter of a "sister in the system", or daughter of a "brother in the system" !!!
3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowries, and those who are committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom they have emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are committed to them by oath. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Additionally, the Book speaks of ?wives of the prophet? (3332), there is no where in the Book that says that he had them ALL AT ONE TIME. This could be understood to mean those women whom the prophet was previously married to and then divorced, the one he was presently married to and whomever he might marry in the future, if he got divorced.
The following verse clearly shows that the Prophet had more than one wife at the same time
3351 You may postpone whom you will of them, and you may receive whom you will. And whomsoever you seek of those whom you have set aside then there is no sin upon you. Such is best that they may be comforted and not grieve, and may all be pleased with what you give them. God knows what is in your hearts. God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.
He had many wives at the same time but we don't know HOW MANY at the same time.
If the Prophet had only one wife at a time, the following verse would have said "if you ask his wife for something, ask her from behind a barrier"
3353 ..............And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier...................
nikah means contract in this verse, a social contract and not a marriage contract.
In 43, if it is a "social" contract, that would make the orphans and their mothers "ma malakat aymanukum"/those possessed by your oath, because in a "social" contract, one makes an oath with them to provide them financial support; but they are not "ma malakat aymanukum" as evident by the phrase "then only one OR ma malakat aymanukum" in that verse.
"Nikah" always means "marriage" in al-qur'aan. "Contract" is referred to as "3uqdat" as in "3uqdat alnnikah"/marriage contract
2237 And if you divorce them before having sexual intercourse with them, but you have already set the dowry for them; then you must give half of what you have agreed, unless they forgive or the guardian over the marriage contract (3uqdatu alnnikahi) forgives. And if you forgive, it is closer to righteousness. And do not forget the favor between you; God is Seer over what you do.
2235 ............... And do not decide/resolve/confirm the marriage contract/tie (3uqdata alnnikahi) until the required interim is reached in the Scripture. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
The word "nikah" does not include the meaning of "contract", otherwise "3uqdata alnnikah" would mean "contract of the marriage contract" !
Following are other examples of "contract" = "3aqad"
433 And for each We have made inheritors for what was left behind by the parents and the relatives. And those whom you pledged/contracted with (3aqadat) by oath, you shall give them their portion. God is witness over all things.
51 O you who believe, honor your contracts (al3uqood)...............
589 God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what you contracted/pledged/intended (3aqqadtumu) in the oaths ..............
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Salaamun alaikum,
To Warner
Yes. My understanding of 4127 is that the Messenger has been instructed to remind the people what was already rehearsed to them (in 41-14) as to specific directives regarding the orphans of the women to whom they have not given the free gift but are contemplating entering into a social contract with them as guardians for the weak and oppressed children and that the guardians must stand firm and be just. This good deed will be recorded.
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Salaamun alaikum,
To Tanveer
For answers regarding ?sisters? ?brothers?, etc., I suggest you check the Arabic in the examples you site and not rely on the English translation. Once you check God?s words, they will provide you with the answers you seek.
Using part of an ayat, which you say ?CLEARLY shows that the prophet had more than one wife at the same time? to substantial your position and to rely on an English translation of ?wives? instead of ?wife? (the use of plural instead of singular) as proof text is a weak argument, at best.
It is your understanding that nikah, as you put it, ?ALWAYS? means marriage. However, words have ?shades? of meanings depending on the context. I respect your understanding, but it presents another weak argument as well.
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Peace TBA,
For answers regarding ?sisters? ?brothers?, etc., I suggest you check the Arabic in the examples you site and not rely on the English translation. Once you check God?s words, they will provide you with the answers you seek.
The same word "akhta" that is used for biological sister in 412, 4176, and first part of 423, is used in second part of 423, meaning biological sisters. The same word "akhta" is used in 423 FOUR times in various forms, meaning the same in each occurrence, i.e. biological sister. If The God had meant "two sisters in the system/deen" then He would have used "fee aldeen" after "ukhtayn" in 423, just like He did for "brothers in the system"/"ikhwanukum fee aldeen" in 911 and 335.
I am sorry but you have ZERO argument in this case.
Using part of an ayat, which you say ?CLEARLY shows that the prophet had more than one wife at the same time? to substantial your position and to rely on an English translation of ?wives? instead of ?wife? (the use of plural instead of singular) as proof text is a weak argument, at best.
Please read 3351 again; the words used in this verse "postpone whom you will of them, and you may receive whom you will. And whomsoever you seek of those whom you have set aside"/"turjee man tashao minhunna watu'wee ilayka man tashao wamani ibtaghayta mimman 3azalta" CLEARLY imply multiple wives at one time.
I am sorry bro, you again have ZERO argument against the Prophet having multiple wives at one time.
It is your understanding that nikah, as you put it, ?ALWAYS? means marriage. However, words have ?shades? of meanings depending on the context. I respect your understanding, but it presents another weak argument as well.
In my earlier post I proved FROM THE CONTEXT of 43, that "inkihoo" there can only mean "marry", because it is used in contrast with "ma malakat aymanukum". A social agreement/contract for financial support is made by making an oath with the other party to support them, which would make the other party "ma malakat aymanukum", or "3aqadat aymanukum" as per usage in al-qur'aan for such a social agreement. According to usage of "nikah" in al-qur'aan, it ALWAYS means "marriage" in ALL contexts.
Also, reference Lane Lexicon, "nikah" ALWAYS means "marriage" when used in association with a male or a female human being.
I am sorry bro, but again you have ZERO argument against "nikah" meaning "marriage", in al-qur'aan.
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Salaamun alaikum,
To Tanveer
First Question why would you assume that I am a man by referring to me as "bro"? I am sorry to dissappoint you...I am your sister in the deen.
Second Question Since you have concluded that I have (as you put it) ZERO argument, I understand that to mean that my understanding is so off-base that it is not even worth considering.
Third Question Didn't you get the memo?? It read..."All who participate here at the forum must leave their assumptions and their egos and at the door."
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Peace be upon you sister TBA,
I apologize for assuming you were my brother in deen. Your stance on the issue should have been a big clue !!
Any understanding has to be considered in order to reply to it.
Your 3rd statement is also based on some assumptions so the memo should be implemented by you too !
Salaamun alaikum,
To Tanveer
I have one question for you too why would you assume that I am not one person but many ? confused P
peace
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Enough already?it was a blast for a minute, no hard feelings?but let?s get back to the matter at hand?
You said, (and I quote)
?The same word ?akhta? that is used for biological sister in 412, 4176, and first part of 423, is used in second part of 423, meaning biological sisters. The same word ?akhta? is used in 423 FOUR times in various forms, meaning the same in each occurrence, i.e. biological sister. If the God had meant ?two sisters in the system/deen? then He would have used ?fee aldeen? after ?ukhtayn? in 423, just like He did for ?brothers in the system? / ?ikhwanukum fee aldeen? in 911 and 335.The danger in a person extracting and isolating words from different ayats is that a person runs the risk of taking issues out of context, (which was done in 43, i.e. the traditional understanding is that this is the ayat which supposedly gives males permission to marry more than one wife). As I have shown you, in 41-14, these ayats, in context, speak to guardianship and has nothing to do with marriage.
Point One one needs to understand that two biological sisters can be an ?akhta? and a ?bint? to their mother AT THE SAME TIME (same goes for brothers, ?akh? and ?ibn?).
Therefore, in 412, if a man or woman dies and has no living parents or children, but has brothers or sisters, it is reasonable to understand that in this instance, that the correct usage is ?akh? or ?akhta? because in this instance, they are not ?bints? or ?ibns?, but still have the blood tie.
Point Two Because you have isolated certain words, you have taken the ayats (911 & 335) out of context.
In 911, when you look at the ayat in context, the reference is to polytheists who have repented and are committed, then as a result of this, they are your ?brethren in the deen? (no blood ties whatsoever).
In 335, when you look at the ayat in context, the reference is to the adopted sons, even if you do not know who their fathers are, they are still your ?brethren in the deen? (no blood tie whatsoever).
Tanveer, although I appreciate your comments, I would like to hear from some other participants in this think tank.
I want to be very careful not to make haram what the God has made halal (as the God had chided the prophet regarding just this behavior), so I have not concluded my understanding until all rebuttals have been examined.
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Tanveer, although I appreciate your comments, I would like to hear from some other participants in this think tank.
I want to be very careful not to make haram what the God has made halal (as the God had chided the prophet regarding just this behavior), so I have not concluded my understanding until all rebuttals have been examined.
Dear sister
In my opinion, Brother Tanveer's understanding is closer to reality .After examining the available data till date i think,,,Polygynous relationships are allowed with no upper limit, it would depend if one can afford it and is able to handle multiple marriages in a just way. The example of Mohammad(pbuh) should be a supporting evidence.
peace
sikandar -
To Siki
Your comments are appreciated, however, when a person uses language such as "in my opinion", "I think" and "should be"...this type of reasoning does not provide a sound basis for concluding an argument.
Question 1 just so that we are both on the same page...what do you mean when you say "closer to reality"?
Question 2 please provide the references to the available data that you examined which caused you "to think..."
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Peace Siki, All
If there is no upper limit how can there be replacement ?
warner !
Good question,,,,B.A
See sister , this is exactly what i meant by those "should bees" ," in my opinion", "closer to reality","available data till date ",etcTanveer
Brother! looks like, it needs more work, so lets do it.peace
siki -
To Siki
You made the statement B.A., See sister , this is exactly what i meant by those "should bees" ," in my opinion", "closer to reality","available data till date ",etc.
I do not understand what point you are making, please explain.
TheBookAlone
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Peace Siki
I was referring to exchange/replace in 420 and 3352.
These two verses, when read together, prove that in God's religion a believing man is forbidden from taking wife upon wife; which actully means that it is polygamy which is forbidden because there can be no polygamy unless a man is allowed to take wife upon wife.
"If you desire to give up a wife and to take another woman in her place...." (420)
Here the believer is allowed to take another woman as wife, on condition that he divorces his present wife. So the man is single. His taking a woman as wife now is actully a single man's marriage.
On the other hand, the Prophet is forbidden from replacig any one of his wives by another woman from outside his family; for it would actually be taking wife upon wife since he is a polygamous man.
Another mistake I notice is brother Tanveer's claim that nikah always means marry. No. It means sexual intercourse in 243 and 2460.
From Muhammad Asad's footnote on NKH in 2460
Although nikah is almost always used in the Qur'an in the sense of "marriage" or "marrying", there are undoubtedly exceptions from this general rule for instance, the manner in which the verbal form yankihu is used in verse 3 of this s?rah. These exceptions confirm the view held by some philologists of great renown, e.g., Al-Jawhar? or Al-Azhar?, to the effect that "in the speech of the Arabs the original meaning of nikah is sexual intercourse (al-vat)".
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
To Siki
You made the statement B.A., See sister , this is exactly what i meant by those "should bees" ," in my opinion", "closer to reality","available data till date ",etc.
I do not understand what point you are making, please explain.
TheBookAlone
Quran is an amazing jigsaw puzzle, whenever one thinks that he has reached a conclusion regarding some issue from it, the book confronts you with something new.That is why i have stopped being sure about my derived conclusions, and have started to use the above mentioned pharases, which leave room for an improved understanding.
I thought I had reached to some understanding regarding polygamy,but here i was confornted with a very relevent question by brother warner?
i hope you understand now
peacesiki