verse 4:3 and polygamy
-
My God! From all this, it seems to me that the Qur'an, which is supposed to be clear and without contradictions, is totally UNCLEAR and open to all kinds of interpretations! So how in the world are we supposed to know what God meant and what the right thing is?
Just a comment. Sorry. But this is frustrating and confusing!
-
Salaam Zehra
My God! From all this, it seems to me that the Qur'an, which is supposed to be clear and without contradictions, is totally UNCLEAR and open to all kinds of interpretations! So how in the world are we supposed to know what God meant and what the right thing is?
Just a comment. Sorry. But this is frustrating and confusing!
Blame it on our ancestors who could have made it much easier for us if they had allowed open discussions of the quraan when they were still familiar with its language, and not hanged their swords over the heads of thinkers. We are starting from the "invention of the wheel", and May God help us.
-
Peace be with you, Zehra
The Quran is clear and it is not open to all kind of interpretations. When we find the right interpretation there will be no contradictions. It is we who are confused and in turn it is we who confuse the Quraan. The main reason for this is we come to the Quraan with lot of mental baggage and loaded with useless information. Our beliefs, assumptions and our preferences cloud our minds and keep us away from understanding the Quraan.
Since you seem to be confused or frustrated and there can be others like you (most of us have come through this, I guess) I like to share one experience with you. Till recent, I used to believe Qibla meant direction of Salat and that direction is towards Mecca. Then I thought it might be Jerusalem though I never faced Jeruslaem. Discussing and arguing much in this board to uphold what I used to believe and also bringing evidences from the Quraan and the Bible in support of qibla, direction of prayer recently I wanted to study this issue on my own possibly thanks to Ayman. (Ayman has his own view on qibla/ focal point which I do not agree and that is beyond my little writing here). But when I read the Quraan to find out about the Qibla (possibly with lot of determination and a clear mind) I realized there is no direction of salat (qibla) mentioned in the Quraan at all; No single verse supporting this. I even realized the verses against such a qibla used to look like verses in support of it. All depends on how strong our conviction and how deep our minds are set on different beliefs and whether we are prepared to shed all those to understand Gods message. Also how we are going to break down all these idols and read and understand the Quraan and its clear message. This site is only 4 years. We just started; maybe in another few years (who know, maybe months) if Allah wills we will sort most issues; clear without contradiction.
So do not give up, keep learning.
-
Peace Samia
Is this word available in the Quran?
Neither of them is mentioned in the quraan.
Only the singular, dual and plural of the masculine form are mentioned yateem; yateemayn and yataama (the latter is the plural for the masculine or a group of mixed gender). -
Peace Samia
So can we say yata_man nisa (4127) is female orphans
Although ?yataama? can be mixed gender can we take it to mean male or female according to context as in 43?
I believe 4127 is a later clarification of 43-5 explaining it is the marriage to female orphans which is being addressed in first part of 43 .
-
To Zehra
I agree with Warner.
In the beginning of my studies, I too, felt frustrated at times?but I continuously sought God?s assistance.
How do we get assistance from God? We should seek assistance by being patient and committed. (2153)
The ?Law of Guidance? is such that if you wish to be guided, you will be (See 2213; 2272; 1025; 1327 and many other places). God establishes Truth to be the truth with His Words (87 & 1082), not with various human interpretations, which is subject to error.
How are we to know what God meant and what?s the right thing? God says that this Book has clear interpretations (2533) and there is no change in His Words (1064). God is very specific when He uses words and there is no ambiguity in them whatsoever.
God says that guidance will come to us from Him and whoever follows His guidance, no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve (23. Put your TRUST in God and approach this Book with the sincere intention to be guided aright and in time the Law of Guidance will allow you to know what God means and what the right thing to do is.
I hope this helps.
TheBookAlone
-
To Brook
Is it your understanding that the believing men are instructed to be monogamous and the prophet is allowed to be polygamous? If so, could you please provide the references to support your understanding from the Book?
TheBookAlone
-
To Siki
Thank you for your response. However, what I understand is that you did not answer two of my questions.
Question 1 just so that we are both on the same page...what do you mean when you say "closer to reality"?
Question 2 could you please provide the references to the available data that you examined which caused you "to think..."
Am I to understand that the reason you use the phrases, ?in my opinion?, ?I think?, ?should be? etc. because it affords you the opportunity to leave room for an ?improved understanding??
You say ?Quran is an amazing jigsaw puzzle??This Book is a ?living book? for all times which facilitates our understanding of it by its cohesiveness through repetition. Would you agree? If so, then we are on the same page on that point.
Up to this point, in a nutshell, what is your understanding regarding polygamy and please explain what about Warner?s question caused you to ?re-think? your understanding on this issue?
TheBookAlone
-
Salaam warner
Peace Samia
So can we say yata_man nisa (4127) is female orphans
Although yataama can be mixed gender can we take it to mean male or female according to context as in 43?
I believe 4127 is a later clarification of 43-5 explaining it is the marriage to female orphans which is being addressed in first part of 43 .
We can take it to mean male or mixed gender, but not feminine. Even in the colloquial, feminine adjectives are respected. I do not think yatamalnisaa' could be orphaned women.
Do any of you know any verse where such construction is used? i.e an adjective that preceeds the noun. Grammatically it is not wrong, though.
What's orphaned women any way? Can you call an adult (orphan)?
-
To Warner
You asked me in a previous post regarding my understanding about 4127 as it relates to 43 and I responded. I brought to the attention of this forum that 43 has nothing to do with marriage.
However, you are saying to sister Samia that you believe 4127 is a later clarification of 43-5 explaining it is the marriage to female orphans which is being addressed in first part of 43.
Is it your understanding that 43-5 is speaking about a marriage which allows intimacy and not about guardianship?
TheBookAlone
-
Peace Sister
Yes I believe the verses are dealing with marriage.
But marriage to orphans and also to women other than orphans, orphans properties and duty of the guardians is also covered in 43-6.Nikah is marriage, if you go for the easiest available English word. So maybe its not the same way we look at it today. Even if we leave the fact it?s a such a common Arabic word any other meaning will contradict so many verses The ?contract to uphold as guardian? will not make sense in many verses . To point a few ?marry not women your fathers married?422 ?, ?divorce verses 2230-1, 3349 ?. Also that will leave the whole Quran without any verse for marriage.
-
Peace Samia
yata_man nisa
I honestly thought it's grammatically wrong.My explanation is unmarried young woman who does not have parents. I like to say Female orphans. When a female orphan is not a child anymore but in marriageable age, since we are dealing with marriage.
Can you comment on what you think on 4127 and its relationship (rather clarification of) 43-5?
-
Thanks for the messages, guys. What you said makes sense, but it still seems to me that if there are so many meanings for each (or almost each) word of the Qur'an, how do we know which of the meanings is the right one? Everyone will come up with what s/he thinks is the best meaning, but there'll be no agreement on what the right meaning is in the context.
Just as an aside, I have Muhammad Asad's translation of the Qur'an (it's the only one I've read actually) (I don't know Arabic) and it makes a lot of sense to me. I was at peace with it. I'm beginning to get confused now, when I read other interpretations on the Free-minds website. It's beginning to seem to me (and maybe it's just me) that all the words in the Quran have all kinds of meanings and we cannot be sure what they mean in the context. Look at this thread on polygamy! -\ I don't know what to think! confused Oh, and one more thing, ALL the meanings of the Quran over the past thousand and some years can't have been wrong! What makes us so sure we're on the right track?
Sorry. Just needed to vent...
-
To Siki
Thank you for your response. However, what I understand is that you did not answer two of my questions.
Question 1 just so that we are both on the same page...what do you mean when you say "closer to reality"?
Question 2 could you please provide the references to the available data that you examined which caused you "to think..."
Am I to understand that the reason you use the phrases, ?in my opinion?, ?I think?, ?should be? etc. because it affords you the opportunity to leave room for an ?improved understanding??
You say ?Quran is an amazing jigsaw puzzle??This Book is a ?living book? for all times which facilitates our understanding of it by its cohesiveness through repetition. Would you agree? If so, then we are on the same page on that point.
Up to this point, in a nutshell, what is your understanding regarding polygamy and please explain what about Warner?s question caused you to ?re-think? your understanding on this issue?
TheBookAlone
Dear TBA
ANS 1.. when i progress to a higer/better understanding due to clear evidence from the book , but the new understanding still has some loose ends to mend, i use the term closer to reality.
Ans 2.. polygamy allowed due to the following reasons.
prophet Mohammad practiced polygamy (proven from Quran)
all of his marriages except khadija, were after the revelations, had this not been allowed , he would have been clearly instructed, not to do so4-23.. clearly states that you can not collect two sisters at a time, from this we can indirectly deduce that ,except two sisters , one can collect more than one woman.
i have not been able to find any upper limit in quran except to deduce from 4-3 , but the verse is about orphans, and 4 is a suggestion , it does not set the limit.
prophet Mohammad's example of more than 4 wives proven through history is irrefutable.The All mighty, probably won't set a wrong example through his last prophet.However brother warner's point regarding replacement of a wife with another is very pertinent, because the verse suggests some kind of limit, what is that? lets find out.
when i am short of a sure understanding , i use such words which leave room for an improved understanding,
Peace
siki -
Peace Samia
yata_man nisa
I honestly thought it's grammatically wrong.The construction is grammatically correct, if it is used for what it means. It does not mean orphaned women. If you want to say (orphaned women) and use this construction, it will be grammatically and semantically wrong. Yatamaa here cannot be an adjective for a feminine noun. This construction means (orphans of women).
Verse 46 tells us what to do when orphans reach adulthood (does not say marry them, though).
When a female orphan is not a child anymore but in marriageable age, since we are dealing with marriage.
In this case she is no more an orphan. They can manage their on affairs as per 46, they do not need a guardian anymore, and they can hence marry themselves if they want.
Can you comment on what you think on 4127 and its relationship (rather clarification of) 43-5?
I think verse 127 prohibits exploiting mothers of orphans by refraining to pay what's due to them if someone wants to marry them; and the exploitation of oppressed and weak children (whether orphaned or not); and commands us to be fair to the orphans.
Thus it discusses three vulnerable categories
*Mothers of the orphans
*weak and oppressed children (other than orphans)
*Orphans.Verses 2,3 and 5 are clear. Verse 4 is what makes me think
- What's the meaning of "sudagaatihinna"?
- The usage of "alnisaa'" instead of "nisaa'akum" makes me feel that it is not about "wives" but "women" in general, or
- that "nisaa" does not mean women.
I would like to hear other points of view in respect of this verse.
-
Salaam Siki
4-23.. clearly states that you can not collect two sisters at a time, from this we can indirectly deduce that ,except two sisters , one can collect more than one woman.
As I think that polygamy is restricted to mothers of orphans, I understand that in this case, a man cannot marry his mother-of-orphans sister-in law.
So the verse as I see will be understood as (and to collect two sisters in case you meet the conditions of polygamy)