verse 4:3 and polygamy
-
Peace be with you
Thanks for your comments related to ?masna_ wa sula_sa wa ruba_? in 43 and ?masna_ wa fura_da_? in 3464 which I explained above.
Since I haven?t got any refutations on this; ?masna? meaning two together, ?sula_sa? meaning three together, ?ruba? meaning four together seems to be correct in the light of the verses compared.....Has anyone seen Samia recently ?
But still there is a problem with the connecting wa/and between ?masna_ , sula_sa , ruba (43) and between masna_ , fura_da_(3446). You can see in 43 I have omitted AND between the words and in 3446 used OR instead of AND which is not correct. How will the use of ?wa/and? change the meaning or the construction of the verse and also the connection with the rest of the sentence.
An interesting point with 3446 the first part of the verse says ?Warn you with ONE THING? so the proper translation should bring out ONE THING and not TWO THINGS in the second part of the verse otherwise it will create a contradiction between the second part of the verse with the first part.
I request Aymans kind attention on this.
-
Salaam warner
There is no mother of orphans in 4127 but as you explained ?orphans of women?. When orphan girls reach marriageable age I think we can call them ?orphans of women?.
I do not understand what you mean by "there is no mother of orphans". Is it because the word "mother" does not appear? Would you have been satisfied if it were "yatamaal ummahaat"? Well, this expression exists, but it means (an orphan who lost his mother"! Definitely that's not what we want.
And when an orphan girl reaches marriagebeable age, we do not call them "orphans".
-
Salaam Samia
Thanks for coming back.
Been making lot of effort with my pre school Arabic knowledge. Will you please read the posts and give your assessment on them.
What will be the correct term for ?mother of Orphans?
I think from the following 3 verses (I only quote the relevant part) we can deduce a person can be called orphan until attaining the age of marriage and more precisely as ?orphans of women? as used in 4127. I agree with you on the fact, that we can not call someone an ?orphan? after the marriage.
4 6
Yusuf Ali Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them release their property to them ??4 127
Yusuf Ali ??concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed and yet whom ye desire to marry???6 152
Yusuf Ali And come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it until he attain the age of full strength??.Peace
-
"mathna wa thulatha wa ruba3a" means "two at a time, and three at a time, and four at a time" (tanveer)
This also proves that polygamy is practically forbidden in God?s religion because no man is ever sexually fit to sleep with two or three or more brides at a time, whom he marries at a time.
So in 43 God can not be telling the man to marry but marry off the women two or three or four at a time if he finds his means financially fit, which is quite likely.
For argument sake lets take a hypothetical example in which one person has 10 wives and he wants to marry one more,
Fine.
then he can either divorce one and marry another in her place (replacement),
In the prophet?s time that must have been out of the question because the prophet himself was forbidden to marry another woman in place of any one of his wives (3352).
If the prophet had allowed his polygamous contemporaries to divorce one wife to marry another in her place, which God had forbidden His prophet to do and which the prophet strictly obeyed, Islam would have lost its credibility and would have failed.
Islam succeeded in the prophet?s lifetime, which is proof enough that the prophet and his followers were unified; and that the prophet did not go one way and his followers another.
or he can marry another without divorcing any which will make 11 wives.
No way again due to the same reasons I tried to explain above.
It does not mean that he cannot marry any more after the revelation of this verse, otherwise what is the use of giving him general categories of women that are lawful to him in 3350?
The four categories of women cited in 3350 as lawful to the prophet were his wives already, as is made clear in the very beginning of the verse "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives (aswaajakah)."
The verse is a statement of the fact that the prophet was polygamous, and his wives were all lawful to him because he had married them before the revelation of 3352, which said "No other women shall be lawful to thee min ba3d..."
"Min ba3d" in 3352 is not referring to after this time but beyond the mentioned categories of women.
Beyond the mentioned categories of women is the same as after this time because no women beyond the mentioned categories, that is his present wives, shall the prophet marry after this time. It never gave the prophet permission to marry other women than his present wives in the future; it meant that his present wives were lawful to him although polygamy was forbidden after this time.
I will try to continue, God willing.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Peace Samia
What is the word for ?Widow? and is there a term/word for ?widow with child/children??
Since we are stuck with the definition of ?orphan of women/yata_man nisa? I will try an example of sorts.
-
A small girl who lost both her parents being raised by a guardian. Now the orphan turns 18 and therefore attains marriageable age.
-
A 40 year old woman who has one child and the woman lost her husband recently.
Who is better fit to be orphans of women?
Also I realized halfway this is one issue we will not agree since I believe that orphan is a person who has lost both his/her parents whereas your position is it can be even one parent.
-
-
What is the word for ?Widow? and is there a term/word for ?widow with child/children??
I know the word "armala", but it is not used in the quraan.
The only verse where we find the expression of "yataamaal nisaa'" is verse 4127. If we take it as female orphans, does this mean it is OK to not give women who are not orphans what is prescribed to them? Or that a guardian refuses to give a male orphan his dues because he will marry him his daughter, for example?
Not to mention the linguistic problem. We say jameelaat (f.p) alnisaa'a beautiful omen (roughly); but it is wrong to say jmeeluun (m.p)alnisaa'. The latter is analogical to yataama (m.p) alnisaa'
-
Peace Samia
You said Yataama can include both genders. It should;otherwise that will leave the Quraan without a word for female orphan minors because the term ?yata_man nisa_" meaning female orphans who has reached the age of marriage (adult) exist. Even in sentences specifically for female orphans as 46 yataama (test them till they reach marriage?and release the property) is used .Releasing the property mainly to male orphan is covered in 6152 (release when they reach maturity).
Also the separate words you posted for orphans, female minor and male minor, can they be post quranic?
Is the word yatamaa similar to wolad/child where male and female children are both covered? But wolad when grows up will become either rijaal or nisa. It maybe not necessary to distinguish male and female with wolad since the issues will be same for both genders. But for minor female orphans when they reach adulthood still their rights and legal issues concerning marriage, guardianship and their property has to be resolved therefore it may be necessary to separately identify them as female orphans as distinguished from male orphans.
Sometimes as in 43 the verse context should identify whether the yatamaa mentioned is male or female. But since the verse is difficult to understand I believe4127 has been revealed to clarify the misunderstanding set by 43.
We can not ignore the connection announced by 4127 to previous verses concerning women in general and orphans and children in particular.
Also we know some parts of the quraan explain the other parts, this is very important when a verse can not properly understood.I will try to give my version on how 4127 and 43 should be merged i.e. how 4127 will explain the misunderstood verse 43 when both verses are taken together.
?.concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed and yet whom ye desire to marry; that ye stand firm for justice to orphans, If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans marry women of your choice two together or three together or four together ; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal fairly (with them) then only one?.
(part of verse 4127 and part of verse 43 together) -
2432 is a general advice to marry off the single and the male and female servants, and not a prohibition of polygyny. (tanveer)
2432 is the same as 629 in terms of wording. So if 2432 were not a prohibition of polygyny, neither would 629 be a prohibition of idolworship
Hasten to the remembrance of God (629)
Marry off the single (2432)In 629 God adresses the mosque-goer.
In 2432 He adreesses the registrar.In 629 the mosque-goer is ordered to remember God.
2432 the registrar is ordered to marry off the single.God forbids the mosque-goer to remember al-Lat
because it is a wrong done to God. God does not share His sovereignty (1826).God forbids the registrar to marry off the married
because it is a wrong done to women (423). God doesnot do the least wrong unto humans but it is humans who wrong themselves (1044)I will try to continue, God willing.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salam bro Hasan,
This also proves that polygamy is practically forbidden in God?s religion because no man is ever sexually fit to sleep with two or three or more brides at a time, whom he marries at a time.
Firstly, the portion in red of your quote is pure conjecture and it is not scientifically correct to say that NO man is capable of that. My friend's brother and numerous other people that I know have done it and even ONE example is sufficient to destroy your conjecture.
Secondly, where does it say in al-qur'aan that one has to perform sex with all of one's wives every day ? Even the Prophet was told the following
3351 You may postpone whom you will of them, and you may receive whom you will. And whomsoever you seek of those whom you have set aside then there is no sin upon you. Such is best that they may be comforted and not grieve, and may all be pleased with what you give them. God knows what is in your hearts. God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.
So in 43 God can not be telling the man to marry but marry off the women two or three or four at a time if he finds his means financially fit, which is quite likely.
Firstly, "marry off" is always used in al-qur'aan for men and not for women. For example
2221 And do not marry (TANKIHOO) the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. And do not marry off (TUNKIHOO) the males who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His leave. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
TANKIHOO = marry (used before female)
TUNKIHOO = marry off (used before male)
INKIHOO can mean both "marry" and "marry off", and the context in 43 is clearly women so it can only mean "marry" there and not "marry off".
Secondly, sexual fitness has nothing to do with 43, as you yourself pointed out that the criteria is financial fitness, not sexual fitness.
In the prophet?s time that must have been out of the question because the prophet himself was forbidden to marry another woman in place of any one of his wives (3352).
Firstly, what about the following verse then, where divorce and substitution of the Prophet's wife is possible
665 It may be that he would divorce you, then his Lord will substitute other wives in your place who are better than you; submitting, believing, dutiful, repentant, worshipping, devout, mature and youthful.
Secondly, did you forget to see the word "except" in 3352, which gives exception to the general rule and thus allows the Prophet to replace one wife with another in that exceptional situation ?
3352 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you exchange/replace with them from wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, EXCEPT ma malakat yameenuka. And God is watchful over all things.
If the prophet had allowed his polygamous contemporaries to divorce one wife to marry another in her place, which God had forbidden His prophet to do and which the prophet strictly obeyed, Islam would have lost its credibility and would have failed.
The prohibition was not absolute. Please see above for exception to that rule. The rule does not say that the Prophet was forbidden from marrying another wife, but says that he cannot replace one wife with another, with an exception even to that rule. The prohibition is of replacement (with an exception), not of polygyny. Where do you get prohibition of polygyny from that ?
The four categories of women cited in 3350 as lawful to the prophet were his wives already, as is made clear in the very beginning of the verse "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives (aswaajakah)."
Not all four categories were his wives already. Do you mean to say that ALL of his uncle's and aunt's daughters were already his wives ? Also, the woman who decreed herself to the Prophet could not already have been his wife because the next part of the verse says that the Prophet may MARRY HER if he wishes.
The categories can be broken down to as follows
3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you
-
the wives to whom you have already given their dowries, (this is the only "wives" category, not the rest)
-
and those who are committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,
-
and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom they have emigrated with you.
-
Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers.
Only the first category refers to "wives", and refers only to those wives whom he had already given their dowries.
The verse is a statement of the fact that the prophet was polygamous, and his wives were all lawful to him because he had married them before the revelation of 3352
WRONG !! Not ALL his wives were lawful to him. Only those were lawful to whom he had already paid their dowries. Please re-read 3350 carefully !
Beyond the mentioned categories of women is the same as after this time because no women beyond the mentioned categories, that is his present wives, shall the prophet marry after this time. It never gave the prophet permission to marry other women than his present wives in the future; it meant that his present wives were lawful to him although polygamy was forbidden after this time.
The red portions of your quote are partially correct based on a FALSE INTERPRETATION of 3350 and 3352 where you conveniently forgot the word "illa"/except.
The mentioned categories were not all his present wives, but included 3 other categories of women other than his wives, and even the category of wives included only those whom he had paid the dowries to, and not ALL wives. Please be careful with what the verses actually say !
In 629 God adresses the mosque-goer.
In 2432 He adreesses the registrar.In 629 the mosque-goer is ordered to remember God.
2432 the registrar is ordered to marry off the single.WRONG AGAIN in the red portions !
There is no "registrar" being addressed in 2432. According to the context of 2430-32, it is "the believers" that are being addressed in general.
Please show the verse in al-qur'aan that mentions requirement of a "registrar" for "nikah".
-
-
Salaam warner
You said Yataama can include both genders. It should;otherwise that will leave the Quraan without a word for female orphan minors
Why does the quraan need to use the female term of orphan? Is it just because you believe that "yatamaal nisaa'" are female orphans who reached marriage age? In fact, this shows that there is no special rule for female orphans, just as the case for children in general.
Even in sentences specifically for female orphans as 46 yataama (test them till they reach marriage?and release the property) is used
It's your understanding that decides that it is "specifically" for females. Don't male orphans have guardians who manage their finance/property?
Releasing the property mainly to male orphan is covered in 6152 (release when they reach maturity).
Do you find the wordings of tis verse and verse 46 identical or even similar? Each verse discuss a completely different subject. Verse 6152 is part of what God prohibited to us (The Straight Path) not to eat the property of orphans; verse 46 tells us what to do when they reach maturity. So, how can you say that one of them is about males and the other is about female orphans?
-
peace
3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you
-
the wives to whom you have already given their dowries, (this is the only "wives" category, not the rest)
-
and those who are committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,
-
and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom they have emigrated with you.
-
Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers.
Only the first category refers to "wives", and refers only to those wives whom he had already given their dowries.
why was it made lawful for him the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters? in what way were they lawful?
because i have in another translation that it means he can marry them and i find it a little strange since they are his cousins. -
-
Peace Samia
Samia....If we take it as female orphans, does this mean it is OK to not give women who are not orphans what is prescribed to them?
It is NOT ok not to give women who are not orphans what is prescribed to them. The orphans are distinguished since they are in a much more vulnerable position than a normal woman. Here I see the Quraan trying to protect their rights and treat them as special thereby giving them priority.
When we take this in the context of this chapter, it starts with duties towards WOMEN, first to the
Mothers
Orphans (emphasis on female keeping in line with the subject of this part of the chapter)
Wives
Children
With orphans and children both male and female are addressed.
The verses protects the rights of the orphan emphasizing the importance it gives them over other women and naturally that does not mean other women can be treated badly. But the problem with female orphans is the guardian has more undue advantage over her than towards a male orphan, so as to marry her while keeping her property and maybe not pay the dower as well.
-
Peace Samia
Samia Why does the quraan need to use the female term of orphan? Is it just because you believe that "yatamaal nisaa'" are female orphans who reached marriage age? In fact, this shows that there is no special rule for female orphans, just as the case for children in general.
The Quraan need to use the female term of the orphan because the issues related to the orphan with regard to her marriage and her property under the guardianship becomes important when she reaches marriageable age and due to this female orphan has to be distinguished from the male. The guardian is subjected to these rules.
Samia It's your understanding that decides that it is "specifically" for females. Don't male orphans have guardians who manage their finance/property?
Samia Do you find the wordings of tis verse and verse 46 identical or even similar? Each verse discuss a completely different subject. Verse 6152 is part of what God prohibited to us (The Straight Path) not to eat the property of orphans; verse 46 tells us what to do when they reach maturity. So, how can you say that one of them is about males and the other is about female orphans?
6152 I agree with you. 46 the emphasis is on the female orphan although it should/can/may include both.
-
Salam bro Hasan,
Firstly, the portion in red of your quote is pure conjecture and it is not scientifically correct to say that NO man is capable of that. My friend's brother and numerous other people that I know have done it and even ONE example is sufficient to destroy your conjecture.
Secondly, where does it say in al-qur'aan that one has to perform sex with all of one's wives every day?
Salam bro tanveer.
In your March 22 post you wrote "mathna wa thulatha wa ruba3a" means "two at a time, and three at a time, and four at a time". So I thought that you knew that four at a time means four at one and the same time. And this is what yaseen, in his article, says that these Arabic numbers mean
"Mathna wa thulatha wa rubaa" (also used in 351) means by two, by three and by four. In other words in groups of two, three or four, this meaning therefore has been ignored because it does not fit easily with what traditional interpretations want to find. It is sure this does not mean two three and four because two, three and four in Arabic are ithnaan, thalatha and arbaa? and not mathna, thulatha and rubaa. One must accept that nobody marries two three or four wives at the same time! But that?s exactly what it means if we take ?ankuhu? as Marry instead of Marry off.
Sorry I thought you knew.
If you don't mind, I would like to take one point up at a time, like in this post. In my next post for example I will try to tell you what marry off means to me.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Peace Tanveer
We know the Quraan was revealed in parts and over a number of years. It may be that two successive verses can be years apart. They are successive because of the compilation.
If 3350 and 3352 were reveled at once the time gap would have been few seconds. What is the point in allowing the Messenger to marry a broad set of women and immediately banning it within a few seconds. So naturally it is understood there is substantial time between the revelation of these 2 verses.
Replace is take away/remove/discard something which is already there and place another in its place (substitute). If you do not remove you can not replace. When you replace the car battery or wheel you do not have the earlier one fixed there. But if you take an additional one removal is not necessary. So taking additional is not replacing.The verses do not talk about taking additional they talk about replacing.
The word is used in 3352, 420 and 665 meaning exchanging/replacing wife/wives to take another. The same word is used in other places in the Quraan with the meaning replace or exchange.
In 33.52 the prophet is commanded by God not to take any more women and also not to replace the existing ones. This part of the verse has been misunderstood by many. Let me try to explain this with an example. Lets say the IRS (Inland Revenue) informs the people they can not own any more houses from today. A person owning 4 houses when this law is announced can sell any of the houses and take other houses instead of the ones sold as long as the number of houses do not exceed the upper limit of 4. But if the IRS says you can not own any more houses and also you can not replace your existing houses, then you are fixed with the 4 houses you owned when the law was announced. (Here the figure 4 is just an example the same will apply even for 1)
The analogy is similar to what is said to the Messenger in 3352 with regard to future marriage. He can not take any more women from now neither can he change/replace the existing wives even though he might be attracted to beauty/good of any other woman/women. So the number of wives at the time and the persons become fixed. No additions, No removals, No replacements.
In 3352 God is setting the limit for the Prophet since 3350 he was allowed to marry many categories including any believing woman who offers herself to the prophet . So with this verse he is asked to stop marrying more women or to replace the existing ones.
I need to explain another popular misunderstanding on 420. This verse says you can not take away any dower given, be it very large. Also there are other verses which say you can take away or accept part of the dower given to the wife you are divorcing. That creates a contradiction. But the fact is 420 is instructing with regard to a man divorcing his wife for the sole purpose of replacing with another wife and in that case he can not take away any of the dower he has given although it must be immense.
The above posts show there is an upper limit for the believers with regard to the number of wives at any given time. That we can discuss later once you are ready to accept what ?masna_ wa sula_sa wa ruba_? and ?fawa_hidatan? (43) really means.
Peace.
-
INKIHOO can mean both "marry" and "marry off", and the context in 43 is clearly women so it can only mean "marry" there and not "marry off".
Yes. INKIHOO means marry in 43, and ANKIHOO means marry off in 2432. However the question is not what they mean but why the NKH in 43 was made to read inkihoo although the NKH in 2432 was made to read ankehoo.
Please show the verse in al-qur'aan that mentions requirement of a "registrar" for "nikah".
2282 orders even a monetary contract to be registered because money changes hands, and money is important. But isn?t human life important? Is the wedding contract called nikah concerning a human couple too trival to be registered although it changes their lives?
There is no "registrar" being addressed in 2432. According to the context of 2430-32, it is "the believers" that are being addressed in general.
In order for the nikah of a human couple to be legal you have to get an authority to announce the couple legally married and to note their new status in writing or, if you insist marriage is not worth registering, to verbally note their new status. That is what registrar means here.
That authority may be the parents who marry off (wa ankehoo in 2432) their daughter to a man. And if you claim that their approval is sufficient for the nikah to be legally valid, then the parents are the registrar. God addresses the parents in 2432 and orders them to marry off their unmarried ones (ayaama minkum).
Now please do a comparative reading of 2432 and 629 again.
Hasten to the remembrance of God (629)
Marry off your single ones (2432)In 629 God adresses mosque-goers.
In 2432 He adreesses parents.In 629 mosque-goers are ordered to remember God.
In 2432 parents are ordered to marry off their single ones.God forbids the believers to remember al-Lat
because it is a wrong done to God. God does not share His sovereignty (1826).God forbids parents to marry off their married ones.
because it is a wrong done to women (423). God doesnot do the least wrong unto humans but it is humans who wrong themselves (1044)If 2432 were not a prohibition of polygyny, neither would 629 be a prohibition of idolworship.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Dear hasan
I have failed to find any similarity between 62-9 and 24-32 , and also cant understand the way you have drawn parallel between the two verses
Moreover there is no married women in 4-23 and no prohibition as well , please do not rely on translators and recheck the Arabic, also read the next verse 4-24 in Arabic.
For detailed study of this issue please go through the thread
"Mohsinnat a new understanding"
peacesiki
-
there is no married women in 4-23 and no prohibition as well (siki)
In my post on March 20 I referred to the expression (hurrimat alaikum) an tajma3uu bainal ukhtain in 423, which means (you are forbbidden) to have two sisters as wives at one and the same time.
Please note that this does not mean you are forbidden to marry sisters. No. You can marry biological sisters each one at a time; for instance you can marry your wife?s sister after your wife dies or after you divorce her.
What you are forbidden to do here is to have two sisters as co-wives, because it is polygamy. Stress here is not on sisters but co-wives, which is polygamy. God forbids polygamy because it is a wrong done to sisters in particular and women in general because sisters are women.
To sum it up, polygamy is a wrong done to women. And God does not do the least wrong unto humans but it is humans who wrong themselves (1044)
For detailed study of this issue please go through the thread
"Mohsinnat a new understanding"I did. And I came to the conclusion that the word mohsinat in 423 and 424 means protected independent women such as widows. But this is only a side issue here.
I have failed to find any similarity between 62-9 and 24-32 , and also cant understand the way you have drawn parallel between the two verses
Sorry but I can?t help any more. Please read my post more carefully.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
the word mohsinat in 423 and 424
I meant an-Nisa 24 and 25. Muhammad Asad's translation
"(And forbidden to you are) all married women..." (424)
"And as for those of you, owing to circumstances, are not in a position to marry free believing women..." (425)So according to verse 24 mohsinat are married women, whom according to verse 25 you are allowed to marry?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
the word mohsinat in 423 and 424
I meant an-Nisa 24 and 25. Muhammad Asad's translation
"(And forbidden to you are) all married women..." (424)
"And as for those of you, owing to circumstances, are not in a position to marry free believing women..." (425)So according to verse 24 mohsinat are married women, whom according to verse 25 you are allowed to marry?
Peace,
Hasan AkcayDear hasan
My apologies , when i wrote 4-23 and 4-24 , i actually meant 4-24 and 4-25
what/ where is the word for prohibited in 4-24? Mohd Asad has added forbidden in brackets from his own side. I had asked you not to take translations but recheck the Arabic.
There is a single word ,Mohsinnat used in both the verses 4-24 and 4-25, how could translators and you take this word in one verse as married and right in the next you are translating Mohsinnat as free(unmarried) believing women? and then again , you are marrying these married women,considering them to be widows? but widows are widows , not married.
I suggest, you spend a little time, and do a detailed study of the threads,( mohsinnat, polygamy, and ma malakat emnakum) and then come back and discuss if required.
peace
siki