Is Israel Actually a Blessing for the MidEast?
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Salaam all
Jarkren
ThePalestinians have the highest rate of education among Arab countries. It is almost 100%. And violence has nothing to do with education nor with poverty, but with hopelessness.Nabester
Of course Hezbollah was victorious! Even if the infrastructure was completely destroyed. Victory is measured by whether the aggressor achieved their aim or not. Israel did not achieve any of its aims the two soldiers are still captured, Hizbollah is not disarmed and they could not even reach the river Litani ,only ten kilometers from the boarders. Besides, Hizbollah emerged very strong while Israel lost most of its international sympathy.
Hizbollah fought to defend its land. It is an ultra unified group, completely uncorraptable no spies could infilterate it; they did not claim they were fighting as shi'a or even as muslims, but as Lebanese, and so they gathered all faiths in Lebanon behind them (and still do). That's why they were victorious.
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I heard that despite Israeli attempts to hinder Palestinian education the Palestinians still have the highest rates of phD?s in the world ).
As for the war last year, it mystifies me to how HizbAllah can even claim victory; the amount damage Israel caused is unbelievable , the UN humanitarian chief condemned Israel's heavy use of cluster bombs in the final days of the war, every day, people are maimed, wounded and killed by these weapons - it shouldn't have happened, what's shocking and completely immoral is that 90% of the cluster bomb strikes occurred in the last 72 hours of the Israeli massacre of South Lebanon, when they knew there would be a resolution, Israel knew that they lost the war, and this was their revenge. '(
I am still confused to why the West regards HizbAllah as a terrorist organisation. ???
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Salam Samia
Sorry Samia
Winning a war does not mean being victorious. And by the way let us not get carried away, this was a battle not war.
You can see how much the Israelis value their people, when one Israeli is killed God knows how many Arabs they kill or arrest.
The Hizbollah took two hostages, and they did not mind having their country destroyed and countless civilians butchered, this is madness, not wisdom... In fact if I had any faith in Hizbollah, it would have been shattered then. They might be a clever organisation, but so are many others. This is not all I expect from Muslims, but more importantly wisdom.
You do not have wisdom when you take two hostages, and get thousands of your people killed in return, and all the loss of your hardware. Hizbollah in fact provided a great opportunity for the Israeli to try and claim back the south of Lebanon, that they did not is because they value the lives of their citizens more than Hizbollah does.
Also Hezbollah worked more for the benefit of the Iranians to gauge the capabilities of Israel at a despicable price.
By the way do not worry about Israel, they will bounce back as they several times did. The condemnation against them is just lip service...
Sis Samia, you hold very romantic views to the wars in the Middle East. In fact they are disgusting and very un-islamic for the most...
Have a nice day -
Peace Angel
They don?t value them that much; the two soldiers were a pretext for a massacre that was already planned.
So why give them a pretext then?
And I beg to differ about them not caring for their citizens, even if it is worries about being re-elected... People are not all evil or all good. What is their purpose of wanting Israel, they have a biblical outlook. The Palestinians just happened to be there, it could have been any other race. Look at Darfur, Muslims killing Muslims...
If you start thinking in terms of Jerusalem, and Allah's plan, then that's more in line with Islam. It doesnt matter where you live, but your character is what you carry in your heart and is in Allah's plan. -
Salaam,
Although the Zionist government may find the Jewish race superior I don?t believe they value their lives as much as we assume. After doing research on Israel?s policies towards the Palestinian people I have no doubt in my mind that Israel intentionally fuels the suicide bombing crisis, they put Palestinians through hell and back, leaving them in despair and ?driving? them to blow themselves up, suicide bombings in Israel benefit the Zionist government because they can go on more murder & bulldozing sprees and yet maintain international sympathy, they can grab more land and no one will care. What i?m saying may sound like Arab propaganda but I have come to this conclusion from Israeli/Jewish sources.
Besides there is a lot of racism towards non-Ashkenazi Jews.
As for a pretext for the massacre, if I remember correctly when I was watching the Islam channel a HizbAllah spokes person said they took those soldiers because they captured some of the HizbAllah boys, and the kidnapping of the soldiers was only a reaction.
peace
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Yes...
and the Palestinians assuage the guilt of the Arabs and Muslims by fighting to liberate Jerusalem.
So the Zionists get their suicide bombings and the Arabs / Muslims guilt soothing, the Palestinians their martyrdom, everybody is happy in the best of worlds... Let it carry on then brickwall
Seriously, they've fighting one another for so long that nobody knows who is driving the other one nuts...
I personally favor that the Arabs absorb the Palestinians, it might be the wrath of God is not descended on the guilty because of them being mixed with innocents (cf Quran about Meccah). Let the Zionist have Israel...
Then the Muslims will have no choice but face up to their responsibility as regards Jerusalem...
However the Palestinians should not leave until they purify their heart to God, removing all idolatry and all the sunnah and hadith fabrications.
Allah's earth is vast, and it won't be the first time that mass exodus happens... You will be amazed what will happen if this gets done with a faithful heart... -
I myself do not understand why Palestinians do not accept to be part of other Arab countries. If the Palestinians did not try to assasinate king Hussein when Jordan absorbed the West Bank maybe all Palestinians today would have a better life as Jordanians.
I just wanna be realistic. I believe Jerusalem is lost to the Jews as Constantinople was lost from the Christians to the Muslims. Arab countries want Palestinians to stay fighting for their land because they do not want to give up Palestine to the Israelis at the expense of ordinary Palestinians. This is the reason why Egypt even closes its border with Gaza and man it with soldiers so Palestinians could not immigrate to Egypt and leave Gaza empty to be absorbed by Israel.
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Peace jankren,
I myself do not understand why Palestinians do not accept to be part of other Arab countries. If the Palestinians did not try to assasinate king Hussein when Jordan absorbed the West Bank maybe all Palestinians today would have a better life as Jordanians.
This reminds me of a story about a princess who when told that the peasants had no bread to eat, replied 'Well, let them eat cake.'
Are you seriously saying, Palestinians would have better lives as Jordanians? Does that even make sense to you?"They're not happy as Palestinians living under Israeli occupation?.. Well, let them become Jordanians then!"
As for the debate, I'm watching it right now, it is interesting as the politician (Shimon Peres) does his job best and 'spins'. The host didn't do a good job at the beginning, while he was polite and had some good points, he kept interrupting instead of letting the guest speak until he finishes and then rebuttle. The questions from the audience are very valid and to the point from what I've seen, but the answers leave a lot to be desired... case in point; the recent Israeli incursion of Lebanon. )
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Peace
Well I do not live in the country I was born, 23 years now. Why? because I was not happy the way it was run. After a while, there was a civil war there and I feel vindicated, especially that I participated into warning the authorities there that they were treading dangerously.
Now how many countries where refugees are displaced do we worry about? How about Darfur, they are Muslims too...
Palestine is about Jerusalem. And if as I suspect the Pilgrimage is meant to be there, one day, some arrangement will have to be made with Israelis to allow us to resume the rites, peacefully or not, but I prefer peacefully (that is a big if because it is not going to be easy to convince the Sunnis and Shias that Meccah has no place in Muslim rites.
The Israelis follow an interpretation of the Old Testament, as the Sunnis and Shias follow interpretations of the Quran through the lens of the Hadith.
For me they are the same... -
Ofcourse they are the same, the jews and the sunnis and the shias deserve each other, they should just accept it and live together in peace and harmony. The reality, however, is different, I guess it's true - opposites attract, if they're all the same, then it's a problem. But when you have the jew strangling the palestinian and the rest of the arabs either looking on because of fear, or busy fighting amongst themselves... then hope of such a future diminishes every day.
Please note, religion is a small part in this whole problem... the main problem is occupation and oppression.
Peace
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Peace zenje,
Religion is a big part in the problem from the Zionists side. They believe they are the chosen people, and they came back to reclaim a land that was theirs initially and biblically, this is why they insist on calling it Israel.
What they want is a Greater Israel that extends to Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq and Turkey... That is the Zion vision... This is why the Neocons have considered the possibility of splitting those regions between Israel and Turkey.
Iraq was a test run to see if surgical military means were the answer, since it went badly wrong, they are now thinking of something... -
peace nabster
you say that religion is a big part of the problem on the zionists side.... this simply is not true - zionism is about the jewish people and not the jewish religion - it is politics..... back in the early days of zionism at the start of the 20th century - theodore herzl gave up on trying to combat anti-semitism in europe and thought a jewish state would be better to accomodate the jewish people who were suffering - at the time it could have been Palestine, Argentina, Uganda, Ehtiopia -or wherever......
it was decided on palestine because it would be easier to convince jews to move there by playing the religion card.ps. interesting article http//www.thelip.org/?p=38
and http//www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm -
peace ay dude
You said it, playing the religion card... I do not expect from politicians better than play >
As for the security rationale, how about debunking it with this Gathering all Jews in a little piece of land surrounded by enemies is like leading sheep to the slaughter Israel could be a global slaughterhouse for the Jews! -
peace nabster,
hehhe i like your attempt at debunking the security rationale, however the facts on the ground are that israel is smack bang in the middle of a whole load of arab countries - that is irrelevant because i dont think they are a threat - arab countries are all talk no action for the most part - the biggest stretch of land boardering a neighboring country is with Jordan - and that is DEFINATELY not an enemy - but i wont go into my issues with jordan right now.... thats another story!
so its not really like sheep to the slaughter.....israel cannot have peace because its whole society is built upon lies and bloodshed - for example, the 1948 chapter of jewish history and the truth about founding of "the only democracy in the middle east" is absent completely from school history books, media, etc..... instead they are taught a new reading of events which include heroism, glory and liberation, honour etc.... so subsequent generations of israelis grow up with being taught a version of history which is completely diffeernt to that which the palestinians lived..... then they are told all arabs are out to kill you so its a matter of kill them before they kill you (hence the slaughtering of women and children without a second thought)
Remind them that it is a child - they will tell you he'd just grow up to be a terrorist anyways.
The problem with israel is that people have lost their sense of humanity - when you reach a level where you can allow a child to die at your checkpoint rather than allow them through to get to help, then you know there is no hope left.
How can israel sit there and demand peace when these injustices go on daily?Hate breeds hate and that is exactly what is happening in Palestine/Israel.... and dont think i am criticising only israel here.... i do agree that palestinian society needs to purify itself - the people in refugee camps live in such poverty and horror, which results in so many young people turning to alcohol and drugs as an escape, or to the other extreme they turn to joining a faction to fight. This is not a solution.
but then again i do not know what is....you suggested that the arabs absorb the palestinians - frankly i find this insulting - in fact 50% of jordanian citizens are palestinian refugees given citizenship - but this does not remove from the fact that they are palestinian and often treated as lesser citizens by native jordanians! as bro jankren put it
This reminds me of a story about a princess who when told that the peasants had no bread to eat, replied 'Well, let them eat cake.'
Are you seriously saying, Palestinians would have better lives as Jordanians? Does that even make sense to you?"They're not happy as Palestinians living under Israeli occupation?.. Well, let them become Jordanians then!"
Anyways i could rant for hours about the palestinian israeli issue so ill just shut up for now!
peace bro!
oh ps. im a dudette not a dude
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Peace ay dudette )
This explains why you are so verbally articulate...
About inhumanity, lemme give you this analogy, in the mid-80's I met an Afghan Mujahideen in London. I asked him why where they bombing places where there are women and children, his answer when you are in a war, it is survival, and you have no time to think about who you are killing from the enemy, your only goal is to win.
So I guess the Palestinians and Israelis must be thinking similar.
In any event, no matter, if you want to stop the vicious cycle, something has to give way, waiting for the other to do it will never achieve anything.
Also, I never said move to Jordan, but disperse in Arabic countries and Western countries. (I personally dispersed to the latter, and am pretty happy for it as a British Citizen).
I remind you of the case of the Native Americans, they were massacred. I wonder why the Israelis have not perpetrated a full genocide, since the Arabs (and Muslims) are such cowards, they will not do much.
My own story has led me to be extremely cynical of human nature...
Salutations of Peace
Noble -
you suggested that the arabs absorb the palestinians - frankly i find this insulting - in fact 50% of jordanian citizens are palestinian refugees given citizenship - but this does not remove from the fact that they are palestinian and often treated as lesser citizens by native jordanians! as bro jankren put it
This reminds me of a story about a princess who when told that the peasants had no bread to eat, replied 'Well, let them eat cake.'
Are you seriously saying, Palestinians would have better lives as Jordanians? Does that even make sense to you?Is there any proof that average Palestinian Jordanians are treated as second class citizens?
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peace nabster,
where ru from originally?
You speak of dispersal like it is a simple option - for many they have no place to go..... those who have money emigrate (for the most part - seeking education, a better life, etc) , and those who dont are the ones left behind.And i absolutely agree thatsomething has to give way - but i am also quite cynical of human nature, and so dont see any side give way in the forseeable future - because there is no communication on day to day level between both peoples - all they see from each other is hate - they cant imagine that someone who can treat another human life with such disdain can possibly have a family, friends, be caring etc.... there has been a dehumanization of palestinians - they are seen as animals to israeli soldiers - i think that is the only way they do what they do and sleep at night...giving gins to gun crazy teenage soldiers is never a good idea! and their lack of respect for human life is not limited to palestinians only - any supporter of the palestinian cause becomes an enemy (see rachel corrie, tom hurndall, brian avery, james miller, etc....
although sometimes small things give me hope - i was watching a documentary the other day and there has been a womens group set up for palestinian and israeli mothers who have lost a loved one to come and help each other through the mourning process - whether you lose someone to an israeli or a palestinian the pain is the same.... they hope to build bridges through that.... and a father whose son was killed by the idf donated his organs to save israeli children.... etc....
and you mention native americans- one issue here - the media - israel plays a good pr game - all out massacres would do their image no good - break peoples spirit so they leave is what they want!
if you speak to any palestinian - they will know someone who has been killed or they themselves have been through something horrific - when there is no innocence left because it has been taken away brutally then what is left?
peace jankren,
in the arab world there is a thing called "waasta" - its who you know that counts - so an example in jordan where palestinians are treated as second class citizens would be at university - where a jordanian student with lower marks would get into a course, while a student with a palestinian name may not.... usually things like this only show when there is something competitive like university applications or job interviews etc.... it is once you leave school and enter the real world that you notice the difference (my cousin lives out there and expained this to me) - but we all know arabs are incredibly racist people and now with the influx of iraqis into the region it is more divided than ever! -
Peace ay
A cousin of mine is an adherent to a similar organization in London (I think its called Jews and Arabs for Peace).
Prof Noam Chomsky has also very interesting things to say about the situations there.
Do not forget now that the Jews have also third generation children who consider Israel their home, and talking about kicking them out creates problems. People can have a visceral attachment to land, I do not understand it because I do not have it (am I strange? I do not know).
I can see that you harbor heavy feelings for this, and I respect that...
I might PM you and tell you about my story.
Of course we cannot force the Palestinians to leave, there is no political will to do so anyway, that being said there has been cases of forced mass immigration before such as the French and before that the Turks from Algeria..., but I prefer to emigrate willingly, and I think the USA, Canada, Australia or New Zealand are good places, the country being made solely of immigrants..., Also the Israelis are forced immigrants, their appointed leaders imposed themselves on Palestine which three generations ago was not their home...
Take care dudette
Noble