How can you call yourselves free minds when your minds are not free?
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Then how can you explain Christian members such as me and Myowndesert who are very active in discussions?
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God wants certainty in WHAT? That's the question we need to answer before we can get a 100% certain.
peace.In the truth of Islam.
Then how can you explain Christian members such as me and Myowndesert who are very active in discussions?
Same thing, different religion. You have to have 100% faith in Jesus if you want salvation, not 90%.
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Peace and welcome, Kirbytime,
If you believe in Islam you cannot accept alternatives.
Says who? Islam is the starting point, not the end.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. Those are the ones whom Allah has guided and those are men of understanding.
Peace,
Tay -
What is your definition of Islam?
What is my definition? Islam is the religion which is based upon the Qur'an, and the sayings of Muhammad. That's the only Islam that of which I'm aware.
Peace and welcome, Kirbytime,
Says who? Islam is the starting point, not the end.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. Those are the ones whom Allah has guided and those are men of understanding.
Peace,
Tay??? How is the relevant? My point is, Islam, and all religions, are dogmatic; they are unflinching in their views. That is the opposite of having a free and open mind.
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Peace "kirbytime",
What is my definition? Islam is the religion which is based upon the Qur'an, and the sayings of Muhammad. That's the only Islam that of which I'm aware.
JK- Well then you should now also become aware of those Muslims(submitters to GOD in English) who only follow the Quran and not the hadith i.e. the so called sayings of Muhammad. Muhammad didnt gave any other Divine commands to humanity besides the Quran for them to follow and it would be ridiculous to claim otherwise. This is what the sectarians have done to Islam(submission to GOD) and thts why we have all these troubles in what is otherwise a peaceful and rational way of life.
??? How is the relevant? My point is, Islam, and all religions, are dogmatic; they are unflinching in their views. That is the opposite of having a free and open mind.
JK- The Islam based on Quran Alone is not dogmatic. It leaves everyone free to believe what he/she wants and to do what he/she wants in this life with no punishment whatsoever for that. Ofcourse later one would have to be taken to account but the Quran gives many signs and proofs and the Muslims who beleive in Quran Alone always welcome other interpretations of the Quran the requirement being only that one has taken into account grammar, context and one of the possible meanings of the Arabic terms(rational approach just like the scientists would do). GOD Bless!
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Peace Kirbytime,
How is the relevant? My point is, Islam, and all religions, are dogmatic; they are unflinching in their views. That is the opposite of having a free and open mind.
Unless, of course, the dogmatic, unflinching view is to posess an open and free mind. That's the relevance
Peace,
Tay -
peace Kirby
Islam is not an organized religion. I believe that the word "islam" simply means "peacefulness." That is the starting point for finding the truth.
And btw, "free-minds," is just a name. There are people on this forum who don't have a very "free" mind. But I think what we're all trying to do here is not follow a dogmatic belief. We're trying not to believe in something blindly. We have to find the truth. And to find the truth we have to be uncertain. We have to have doubt, which may lead to certainty.
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Peace "kirbytime",
JK- Well then you should now also become aware of those Muslims(submitters to GOD in English) who only follow the Quran and not the hadith i.e. the so called sayings of Muhammad. Muhammad didnt gave any other Divine commands to humanity besides the Quran for them to follow and it would be ridiculous to claim otherwise. This is what the sectarians have done to Islam(submission to GOD) and thts why we have all these troubles in what is otherwise a peaceful and rational way of life.
If you don't follow Hadith then you cannot consider yourselves Muslims you are officially kaffirs
http//islamqa.com/index.php?ref=3440&ln=eng
Hadith are essential to Islam; they are the reason why we even know about Muhammad's life. Even secular historians accept their legitimacy (to an extent).
JK- The Islam based on Quran Alone is not dogmatic. It leaves everyone free to believe what he/she wants and to do what he/she wants in this life with no punishment whatsoever for that. Ofcourse later one would have to be taken to account but the Quran gives many signs and proofs and the Muslims who beleive in Quran Alone always welcome other interpretations of the Quran the requirement being only that one has taken into account grammar, context and one of the possible meanings of the Arabic terms(rational approach just like the scientists would do). GOD Bless!
??? The Qur'an says repeatedly that disbelievers will be condemned to hell. That is not free.
Peace Kirbytime,
Unless, of course, the dogmatic, unflinching view is to posess an open and free mind. That's the relevance
Peace,
TayThat's inherently contradictory.
Islam does not mean peace, Islam means submission (to God). You must submit yourself to God. That is not free.
peace KirbyIslam is not an organized religion. I believe that the word "islam" simply means "peacefulness." That is the starting point for finding the truth.
And btw, "free-minds," is just a name. There are people on this forum who don't have a very "free" mind. But I think what we're all trying to do here is not follow a dogmatic belief. We're trying not to believe in something blindly. We have to find the truth. And to find the truth we have to be uncertain. We have to have doubt, which may lead to certainty.
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Peace Kirbytime,
That's inherently contradictory.
Yes it is. However, your qualifier is unproven and the ayah has not been refuted thus the conclusion wipes out the assumption. Here it is again if you'd like to have another crack at it
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. Those are the ones whom Allah has guided and those are men of understanding.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace "kirbytime",
If you don't follow Hadith then you cannot consider yourselves Muslims you are officially kaffirs
http//islamqa.com/index.php?ref=3440&ln=eng
Hadith are essential to Islam; they are the reason why we even know about Muhammad's life. Even secular historians accept their legitimacy (to an extent).
JK- Please dont present me with those garbage hadithist views. I know those radicals. I used to be one. After i started to beleive in Quran Alone two German sunni students threatened my life. What i can tell you is that Muslims who beleived in Quran Alone always existed but tehy were in a minority but now i beleive wer growing. The thing is we analysed the Quran scientifically and it came out to be a marvellous and rational scripture whilst the sunni Muslims have ripped verses out of context USED BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION TO UNDERSTAND IT and hence made a nuisance of everything.
??? The Qur'an says repeatedly that disbelievers will be condemned to hell. That is not free.
JK- Who are the real disbelievers? They are those who dont wanna think rationally. They are the ones who instead of thinking for themselves leave it upto the Mullahs and "scholars" and priests to intepret the Word of GOD for them. The Quran explains this in the following verse
They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.
Do not follow anything without knoweldge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Moreover the verses on hell can be used as allegory here on earth also. We can see what happens to ppl when they abandon rationality and what kinna chaos they get into. This is also what is implied by the verses which mention the msieries of hell. Check out this article
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0
GOD Bless! -
Peace Kirbytime,
Yes it is. However, your qualifier is unproven and the ayah has not been refuted thus the conclusion wipes out the assumption. Here it is again if you'd like to have another crack at it
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. Those are the ones whom Allah has guided and those are men of understanding.
Peace,
TayWhat are you talking about? You're not making any sense. I'm not "refuting" any ayahs.
Peace "kirbytime",
JK- Please dont present me with those garbage hadithist views. I know those radicals. I used to be one. After i started to beleive in Quran Alone two German sunni students threatened my life. What i can tell you is that Muslims who beleived in Quran Alone always existed but tehy were in a minority but now i beleive wer growing. The thing is we analysed the Quran scientifically and it came out to be a marvellous and rational scripture whilst the sunni Muslims have ripped verses out of context USED BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION TO UNDERSTAND IT and hence made a nuisance of everything.
Ever since I became Kaffir my life has been threatened. So what makes your quran-only persecution by two Germans any special? "Qur'an-alone" Muslims have never existed, even in minority, until the last 60 years. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that there used to be "Qur'an-alone" Muslims before 1950AD? The Qur'an cannot be analyzed scientificially in the sense you are supposing. The Qur'an is not a scientific text. The Qur'an is a religious text. Also, what do you mean Biblical interpretation? I've only heard of Shias being accused of such a thing, and that is mostly for the self-flagellation, and stoning.
JK- Who are the real disbelievers? They are those who dont wanna think rationally. They are the ones who instead of thinking for themselves leave it upto the Mullahs and "scholars" and priests to intepret the Word of GOD for them. The Quran explains this in the following verse
They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.
Do not follow anything without knoweldge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Moreover the verses on hell can be used as allegory here on earth also. We can see what happens to ppl when they abandon rationality and what kinna chaos they get into. This is also what is implied by the verses which mention the msieries of hell. Check out this article
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0
GOD Bless!The Qur'an says
003.007
YUSUFALI He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.Also, your translation of 1736 seems erroneous since the Arabic word for brain is not in the Qur'an.
017.036
YUSUFALI And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
PICKTHAL (O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these it will be asked.
SHAKIR And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.Here is the Arabic transliteration
Wala taqfu ma laysa laka bihi AAilmun inna alssamAAa waalbasara waalfu-ada kullu ola-ika kana AAanhu mas-oolan
Do you see brain?
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Peace "kirby",
Kirby please listen to me. I can see now that your totally unaware of how the Muslims following Quran Alone operate. It would be useless to argue any further unless you yourself take the initiative to study first our existing claims. I can only tell you please part from trans like Y.Ali and the other hadithists. Quran can very well be understood without hadith otherwise we wouldnt be here and yes the Quran provides laws, morals as well as scientific signs and promoted rational thought in the strongest possible manner. Why dont you go and read the translation of Dr. Shabbir at
http//www.beacon2005.com/QXP.pdf
Hes a man whos spent 10 yrs amongst nomadic arabs and has studied how they associate the classical arabic terms with actions. This is the scientific approach whilst hadithists have merely forced Biblical and biased interpretations from hadith on the Quran but yet his trans is not perfect and there is a new editon coming out. Can you see the difference? GOD Bless! -
Peace "kirby",
Kirby please listen to me. I can see now that your totally unaware of how the Muslims following Quran Alone operate. It would be useless to argue any further unless you yourself take the initiative to study first our existing claims. I can only tell you please part from trans like Y.Ali and the other hadithists. Quran can very well be understood without hadith otherwise we wouldnt be here and yes the Quran provides laws, morals as well as scientific signs and promoted rational thought in the strongest possible manner. Why dont you go and read the translation of Dr. Shabbir at
http//www.beacon2005.com/QXP.pdf
Hes a man whos spent 10 yrs amongst nomadic arabs and has studied how they associate the classical arabic terms with actions. This is the scientific approach whilst hadithists have merely forced Biblical and biased interpretations from hadith on the Quran but yet his trans is not perfect and there is a new editon coming out. Can you see the difference? GOD Bless!The Qur'an doesn't promote rational thought. To promote rational thought means to reject dogmatism, rituals, and unfalsifiable hypotheses. The Qur'an says "Believe in God or you will be punished", which is a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad baculum (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_baculum). The Qur'an might be understood without the Hadith, but Islam cannot be understood without Hadith. There is no reason to believe that Muhammad even existed if you deny Hadith.
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Peace "kirby",
Why dont you read the QXP translation of the Quran for a change? All your arguments are based on traditiona interpretation of the Quran which i already agreed is nonscientific, irrational and dogmatic. Have you ever asked yourself why we here bother to study the Quran Alone now being pressed by both athiets and sunni traiditonalistzs? Why not just take the other extreme? Why put ourselves in such difficulty? It wldnt make sense if there were not something to the Quran Alone so please take your time in studying it. GOD Bless! -
I'm a bit confused by Kirbytime's position, is he traditionalist Muslim or someone who used to be one or something else? Kirbytime could you please explain your position to us?
If you're trying to attack traditionalists then this is the wrong forum, btw.
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Peace "kirby",
Why dont you read the QXP translation of the Quran for a change? All your arguments are based on traditiona interpretation of the Quran which i already agreed is nonscientific, irrational and dogmatic. Have you ever asked yourself why we here bother to study the Quran Alone now being pressed by both athiets and sunni traiditonalistzs? Why not just take the other extreme? Why put ourselves in such difficulty? It wldnt make sense if there were not something to the Quran Alone so please take your time in studying it. GOD Bless!I don't use any translations of the Qur'an. Translations are only here to help. I use the Arabic itself.
I'm a bit confused by Kirbytime's position, is he traditionalist Muslim or someone who used to be one or something else? Kirbytime could you please explain your position to us?
If you're trying to attack traditionalists then this is the wrong forum, btw.
I am former submitter, then qur'an alone, then Sunni, then atheist.
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Peace "kirby",
I don't use any translations of the Qur'an. Translations are only here to help. I use the Arabic itself.
JK- Have you studied the Arabic language and by that i mean the classical Arabic not the colloquial arabic of today? If yes for how many years? As i said Dr. Shabbir studied it for 10 years and he knows very well how the terms have been used and his translation emerged to be extremely rational. GOD Bless!