How can you call yourselves free minds when your minds are not free?

phoenix1

Kirby, we get many chances in life. I don't know if there is an actual physical heaven and hell people go to after they die. Maybe we have an after life.

faith = trust. When I get in my car, and turn the key, I expect it to start. Not just because a book says it will, but because I have seen it happen before again and again.

I don't know if "laws" is the right technical term for what I'm describing here. But let me try to show it to you through another example. A child pokes his finger into a socket, and get's shocked. Now he has learned that when he puts his finger into a socket, he get's shocked. Because he doesn't want to get shocked, he doesn't do it again. It's all based on the "trust" or "faith" that he will get shocked again if he puts his finger into the socket.
And I'm talking about this in everyday terms, not as a description of the physical universe.
I think Einstein believed in strict physical laws, that's why he didn't buy Heisenburg's "crap" (as he would've called it).
anyway, how exactly do humans create physical laws?

IronSky

Peace to all,

I am former submitter, then qur'an alone, then Sunni, then atheist.

Kirby, sounds like your degenerating into disbelief, logic properly used would take you in the opposite direction than you seem to be going, you started by submitting to God, then you submitted to a book from God, then to manmade words about God and his messenger, then you fell from God into a so called atheist. But your not an atheist either as you claim to be, you are making the same logical assertion of fact to say as an atheist "there is no god" as those of us who do believe using the same logic " There is no God but God" God has given each of us enough time and signs in our single lifetime to find him, feel him, and submit to him, it is not unjust for God to not send us back several times as you seem to want, it is unjust for you to deny your soul its eternal reward because of a flaw in your reasoning and refusal to see what is the most blazingly obvious truth and fact " there is no God but God.

Kurt

savage_carrot

I have a free mind because I don't believe in Islam. As a matter of fact, I don't believe in anything. I am not afraid of changing my views at a whim.

Alright, so all this dialogue was about a 'free mind' being a mind that doesn't cling to any one philosophy generally and is as fickle as the wind, if it chooses to be. Cool. The FM in the context of this forum/site is a mind that frees itself from one/some 'philosophy' in particular, in fact there is nothing stopping someone from freeing his mind of ALL if he chooses to, it's not as if the site/forum would hunt and call lightning down on them. This might even be a partial jumping board to end up at the mind blank, being fickle is oh so free and/or I get/want to pick and choose stage.

In the other case, if we wanted it totally free of any particular choice, I'd opt for the admin to change it to Fickle Minds or Totally Free Minds Devoid of Any One Choice To The Exclusion Of Others, if and when that day comes. Since it's not here yet...personally, I'd just go with the flow, its quite free until it gets annoying.

M_Mehdi

Salam Kirby,

But it cannot correct them completely, lest it be considered perfect.

Exactly and why not correct them completely as to be considered perfect? You said,
That is not fair at all, because humans are imperfect. God created humans as imperfect, and then punishes humans for their imperfections. That is totally unfair.

One could argue that it's not only fair but it is actually very Gracious to help imperfect "programs" by giving them a set of commands to become "perfect". And since you brought up the term "imperfect" I imagine that you know something of both imperfection and perfection.

BTW. I know allot of folks are coming at you on this thread from left and right simply because you challenge them. Kudos! I pray that in midst of all this you are more challenging yourself.

nerspi

peace

That is not fair at all, because humans are imperfect. God created humans as imperfect, and then punishes humans for their imperfections. That is totally unfair. That would be akin to writing a faulty program and then blaming the program for not producing the results I desire.

God doesn't punish us for being imperfect, but because we make mistakes. Muhammad was imperfect yet he's in heaven.
and you can't compare humans to programs because we have a free will and programs don't. that's why we get punished or rewarded because of our actions that we choose to do.

unknownuser

I am not afraid of changing my views at a whim.

That is a free mind.

?What did he fear? It was not fear or dread. It was a nothing that he knew too well. It was all a nothing and a man was nothing too... Some lived in it and never felt it but he knew it was already nada y pues nada y pues nada. Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name thy kingdom nada thy will be nada in nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us not into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee.? -- A Clean Well-Lighted Place by Ernest Hemingway

http//www.cis.vt.edu/modernworld/d/hemingway.html#4

But we only get one chance at life! So how can we make the right choice? By then, God would already punish us with hell? Wouldn't it be more just for God to give people several chances at life before damning them?

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

Peace Kirby ? there are many chances in life and what caused you doubt;
A particular verse or supposed ?freedom? to do and think as one pleases?

nadeem

Peace Kirby,

You contradict yourself.

You say "so it is entirely fruitless to use that ayah to prove something to me" because of your disbelief.

But your dear self claimed that "If you don't follow Hadith then you cannot consider yourselves Muslims you are officially kaffirs" referring to an article which also uses sources you reject.

When the verses of Quran (seemingly) support your own proposition, then the Quran is a perfectly acceptable source, despite your disbelief in it. Yet, when the status quo changes, you reject this very line of logic.

Either you ratify the Quran as a source of islam, and find your claim "Islam is promotes blind belief" to be defeated by the verse Tay showed you.

Or, you reject it as a source, and lose the very grounds on which you based your claim on in the first place.

So which is it?

Nadeem

Tay

Peace Kirbytime,

Ah, I see where my misunderstanding came. I don't see how the ayah is relevant. The ayah says you follow things. That's exactly what I mean by not being free. you follow. You do not lead. When you follow something, you are not free to choose your own path. But if you lead, you can go whichever way you wish.

Interesting spin...ok, I'll follow your lead on this
If following is akin to lack of freedom, and you deem yourself a true free thinker, then I presume you've invented your own concept of gravity, or do you follow someone else's? I presume you've dissected human bodies and drawn your own anatomy chart, or do you follow some else's? When you travel, I presume you navigate yourself with your own invented navigation system, or do you follow someone else's map?

Peace,
Tay

ansi

peace all
Well said TAY. I do not know why you guys waste so much time on someone who God says 'if there was any good in them we would have changed their hearts'.the lesson of ABRAHAM is enough for all to understand. Yes, we are free to question any body who says anything apart from God Himself ( HE IS THE DESIGNER OF EVERYTHING, AND EVERYTHING IS HIS). We worship god alone , we do not worship Muhammad or any of those shekhs that have no hand in what god wants or doesnt.

Tay

Peace ansi,

Thanks for the kudos. However, I don't feel I'm wasting my time at all. Through dialogue, both parties always have the opportunity to grow. Once the growth becomes "fruitless", then it's time to move on in peace.

Peace,
Tay

TheNabi

Peace

To have a free mind means to accept alternatives for evaluation.

I think I can agree to that. Isn't a close mind a free minded option though? How do you define a free mind? Certainly a person who freely chooses to close their mind to things and freely choose to open their minds to things too. I do not think closing your mind to alternatives means you do not have a free mind because you will have freely chosen that stance to distance yourself from those alternatives.

If you believe in Islam you cannot accept alternatives.

I do not think so. One can accept alternatives, but they choose not to. This applies to those alternatives that may be a contradiction to the foundational beliefs. Later or sooner one may freely choose to begin to accept alternatives and leave behind or modify some current or former belief/s.

God doesn't want 90% certainty, God wants 100%. 100% certainty is not a free mind. It is a closed mind.

If you could please define what you mean by a free mind. I think all minds are free even those freely choosing to shut out certain things for some period or time. It sounds like to you a free mind is a mind that is never really settled and ever in doubt.

Joe

TheNabi

Peace

Islam is the religion which is based upon the Qur'an, and the sayings of Muhammad. That's the only Islam that of which I'm aware.

You're defining islam based on a context with which you may be most familiar. Islam means peace or submission.

The context of the word islam in the quran may be different from your meaning of a religion based on alquran and ahadeeth of Muhammad.

Joe

TheNabi

Peace

Islam, and all religions, are dogmatic; they are unflinching in their views

It is a dogmatism that one can choose to adhere to or not . One can freely reject all those beliefs or some of them and accept all of them and follow them out.

Joe

nusii

Kirby.

Being an ATHEIST never benefit you or society.

Before you even considering being an atheist, have a look at history.

Renaissance and Enlightenment is a major milestone in Western History.

All Renaissance figures is devout Christian (not necessarily trinitarian)

Almost all Enlightenment figures including American Founding Fathers is a Deist or Unitarian.

Who is Atheist Then? What is their contribution to humanity?

I found Karl Marx and Friedrich Nietzsche and almost all communist leaders (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot).

They bring chaos to 20th. So they are your idols, and also Richard Dawkin, do you read Dawkin's books to increase your faith in atheism? And that makes you a better person?

Does atheism embrace unity and diversity of culture and religion? or you want to destroy them? like what Mao have done in China during Cultural Revolution, or Pol Pot or Stalin?

Does atheism make you a better parents or children or neighbors, and to regard your parents, and orphans, and needy, and to say nice things to people and to give charity?

Does atheism soften your heart and make you a righteous person or it allow you to do whatever you want without even considering the consequences?

Kirby, believe me, if you deny God automatically you believe in evil even of you deny it.

Thanks.

Lost_Philosopher