Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation
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Salam,
I don?t disagree with your statement. I believe my original argument was NOT that it was WRONG ? I was suggesting that it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic. I understand that you acknowledge this as true, but that you disagree with the merits of translating these words as a solution. The point I intended to make is that since non-Arabs/ non-muslims have an INCORRECT understanding / association of what these Arabic words mean that it can be divisive ? AND I was trying to support my position that these words are not nouns.
I can't remember ever having any such problems. If anything it has always led the door straight to the Quran (that came in the Arabic language).
Maybe you can give a specific example of how "it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic."
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Peace Samir,
Thank you for your kind comments and for initiating this interesting discussion.
Peace M_Mehdi,
I can't remember ever having any such problems. If anything it has always led the door straight to the Quran (that came in the Arabic language).
Maybe you can give a specific example of how "it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic."The problems arise even with so-called Muslims who SPEAK Arabic and even native Arabic speakers. You don't have to go far and you can see those problems here on the forum or in discussing the Arabic words "islam/muslim" with any Arabic speakers. Some Arabic speakers translate it as "submission" while others translate it as "peacefulness". So even when two native Arabic speakers talk, they may be talking about TWO DIFFERENT things while using the same word and this will cause a major misunderstanding. Translating/explaining it eliminates this problem.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam Ayman,
The problems arise even with so-called Muslims who SPEAK Arabic and even native Arabic speakers. You don't have to go far and you can see those problems here on the forum or in discussing the Arabic words "islam/muslim" with any Arabic speakers. Some Arabic speakers translate it as "submission" while others translate it as "peacefulness". So even when two native Arabic speakers talk, they may be talking about TWO DIFFERENT things while using the same word and this will cause a major misunderstanding. Translating/explaining it eliminates this problem.
I understand what you are saying. And to add, this is the same with any language. I've even seen the same problems on this very board when speaking and using english only. Therefore, I do not see how changing a word from Arabic to English will prevent or even attempt to eliminate any such misunderstandings.
peace.
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Peace M_Mehdi,
I understand what you are saying. And to add, this is the same with any language. I've even seen the same problems on this very word when speaking and using english only. Therefore, I do not see how changing a word from Arabic to English will prevent or even attempt to eliminate any such misunderstandings.
It will alleviate the problem because at least the two parties will know what the other is talking about and the issue will be brought to the light, discussion will ensue and the best meaning will come out. On the other hand, by leaving it untranslated, the problem persists and is hidden under the rug of the proper name.
The fact is that the only words that are not translated are proper names, which are mere labels that have no bearing on the truth. So unless you take it as a mere label then you should translate it, otherwise you would be making up linguistic rules out of the blue. If you take it as a proper name then you are free to do so (most people in the world do) but you have to admit that it is a personal desire that is not based on the great reading where the word is certainly used as a common noun.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam,
Quote from SAbboushi on Today at 052329 PM
Honor ? you said
I don?t disagree with your statement. I believe my original argument was NOT that it was WRONG ? I was suggesting that it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic. I understand that you acknowledge this as true, but that you disagree with the merits of translating these words as a solution. The point I intended to make is that since non-Arabs/ non-muslims have an INCORRECT understanding / association of what these Arabic words mean that it can be divisive ? AND I was trying to support my position that these words are not nouns.I can't remember ever having any such problems. If anything it has always led the door straight to the Quran (that came in the Arabic language).
Maybe you can give a specific example of how "it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic."
Salam,
I can't remember ever having any such problems. If anything it has always led the door straight to the Quran (that came in the Arabic language).
Maybe you can give a specific example of how "it can / does LEAD TO PROBLEMS when using these Arabic words WHEN SPEAKING WITH non-muslims / those that do not speak Arabic."
Salam M_Mehdi~
This quote above is not from me,but from sAbboushi. Please make sure you and all understand this. I did not make this quote. This is sAbboushis quote to me in response to a comment I made to him, these are his words and not mine.
Honor
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Salam,
With all due respect, your stated problem and solution are one and the same.
The problems arise [even with so-called Muslims who SPEAK Arabic and even native Arabic speakers.
If "problems" arise "even" with those who "speak arabic" and "even native arabic speakers" then what makes you think that the same so called "problems" would not arise with "even" those who "speak english" and "even" with "native english speakers"?
I've even seen the same problems on this very board when speaking and using english only. Therefore, I do not see how changing a word from Arabic to English will prevent or even attempt to eliminate any such misunderstandings
Peace M_Mehdi,
It will alleviate the problem because at least the two parties will know what the other is talking about...
Apparently not.
peace.
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As-Salaamu Alaikum all on this thread,
I haven't followed this thread for quite some time and just got a chance to read the last page. To sum up my position of all the excellent points on here, I simply quote M-Mehdi's last response below. I understand other's intent and reasons, but the fact of the matter is that when you translate it, it will only create "your" understanding of the term that can be different from person to person. The issue is still not solved by translating "muslim" to "one who submits" or "one who is at peace or peaceful", or whatever. Last I also checked, a proper noun is a NAME, not a description. I am not an english major or grammarian, so don't hold me to it if I am wrong. But "muslim" is a descriptive title, not a name.
Either way, I don't think there is any compulsion for anyone. If you like to translate it, cool. If I don't like to translate it, why does it bother you how I describe myself to other people? Why try to convince me that I am wrong to do such or that your way is better? Did Allah address this in Al Quran? Even though you (being whomever) and I agree that we both follow the Quran only, that doesn't mean that we beleive the same things about "Islam" and "muslim".
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Salam,
With all due respect, your stated problem and solution are one and the same.
If "problems" arise "even" with those who "speak arabic" and "even native arabic speakers" then what makes you think that the same so called "problems" would not arise with "even" those who "speak english" and "even" with "native english speakers"?
Apparently not.
peace.
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wa alaykum imamQuranonly
Why try to convince me that I am wrong to do such or that your way is better? Did Allah address this in Al Quran? Even though you (being whomever) and I agree that we both follow the Quran only, that doesn't mean that we beleive the same things about "Islam" and "muslim".
11118 And had your Lord wished, He could have made all the people one nation, but they still would continue to disagree.
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Fahad posted a link to an article named "Can a non-muslim be a muslim?" (? Reply #59 on April 10, 2007, 083027 AM ?)
I am no longer able to access the article using that link, and so I am posting the article here
Can a non-Muslim be a muslim?
Published February 26th, 2007 Al Kitab , Fahad , Muslims , Traditionalism , Quran , culture , Islam 0 Comments
The word ?muslim? is nowadays used as a label. It has become a cultural thing (like Islamic names, Islamic art, Islamic architecture etc). If you are born in a family labeled ?Muslim?, you automatically become one. The word is now used for the so-called followers of Al-Quran, or those who hold the book ?sacred?.But that?s not how Al-Quran has used the word ?muslim?. On the contrary, according to Al-Quran, a muslim is the one who submits to the law of God, even without Al-Quran. Yes, you can be a muslim even before coming across and believing in Al-Quran, if you had already submitted to God?s law.
Al-Quran calls such muslimeen ?those who are given al-kitaab/kitaabillah by God?
28/52 Those to whom We gave al-kitaab from before this, they will believe in it.
28/53 And when it is recited to them, they say ?We believe in it. Surely it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we were already muslimeen/submitters from before it.??
Fahad -
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I agree you should avoid using the word muslim for yourself.
Is this the character of a muslim?
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Is this the character of a muslim?
It was tarikh's own wish.I just endorsed .He said
Peace, i feel the same as you. I call myself a quranic monotheist. Simple. God understands why we would want to avoid using the word muslim in order not to be associated with the hypos
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Hi Bigmo-
Hmmm... good point I recall the Quran saying that the animals and the mountains and the clouds submit to God's will. Does anyone know if any of these verses use the arabic word "muslim" to describe the animals / mountains / clouds and if so, what verses?
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Hi Bigmo-
Hmmm... good point I recall the Quran saying that the animals and the mountains and the clouds submit to God's will. Does anyone know if any of these verses use the arabic word "muslim" to describe the animals / mountains / clouds and if so, what verses?
You just said it yourself...
Supposing I said "Animals dig holes", are animals then not "diggers"?
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Come to think of it, I agree with you in a sense. 2278 says that the followers of Abraham are named muslims by God.