Do you believe
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Some thoughts have been through my head so tell me what you believe if you wish?
Do you believe the Quran is open to interpretation?
Do you believe certain things in the Quran can be taken on different levels?
Do you believe the varying ways of taking the interpretations is considered right in either sense?
Do you believe everyone takes the Quran differently based on their understanding, is this considered right?
Let me try makes things a bit more clear?
What do you think a believer of the Quran must follow? The Quran alone, right? So you follow the Quran alone and then you have this dilemma, you interpret something based on your understanding, and someone interprets something based on their understanding. How do you distinguish right from wrong? Are they both right? Do you believe there is a structure to follow ways? Do you believe everything is open?
I get the impression that a lot of things are taken with no structure, a lot of things are open to leniency based on ones understanding? everyone?s logic/understanding is limited does that mean we should verify with others? even then there is still limits and if we do and still don?t feel we are right do we go by what our heart/mind says though it?s possible we chose certain things because we have been affected due to social acceptance, desires, wants, needs?
Certainty can be unclear, in my opinion there is weakness?
Salam
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This is why forums like this one are important. We may not always agree with each others interpretation of the Quran, but it helps us learn to refine our own interpretation and opens us to new ideas.
Everyones abilities are limited, but with luck our whole will be more than the sum of our parts.
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Salam,
Surah307. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
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Some thoughts have been through my head so tell me what you believe if you wish?
thinking gives you wrinkles
Do you believe the Quran is open to interpretation?
everything is open to interpretation
Do you believe certain things in the Quran can be taken on different levels?
can be, should be, and have to be... however there is no reason that it only has to be taken on one of the available levels at a time, depending on which subject in particular you may be referring to at any one time
Do you believe the varying ways of taking the interpretations is considered right in either sense?
not everyone can be right
Do you believe everyone takes the Quran differently based on their understanding, is this considered right?
well, read a thread like the homosexuality thread. some people understand it to be wrong, others to be punishable by death, still others consider it a conspiracy by jews.
are these people seriously all reading the same book?
What do you think a believer of the Quran must follow? The Quran alone, right? So you follow the Quran alone and then you have this dilemma, you interpret something based on your understanding, and someone interprets something based on their understanding. How do you distinguish right from wrong? Are they both right? Do you believe there is a structure to follow ways? Do you believe everything is open?
just believe in god.
quran alone? but the same book says god will show you the signs in the world around you and within yourself... so you can't solely rely on a book... and i don't think god expects you to. in fact if you believe the book is from god and it clearly states that information outside of the book will be used as proof then it's pretty obvious."understanding" is a tough word... alot of people have thoughts and opinions sarah, but when it comes down to it they don't have any real understanding.
well... how do you distinguish right from wrong? if you have an every day situation and you are required to make a decision and don't have time to check a book... then how do you distinguish? now apply that same methodology to your reading
I get the impression that a lot of things are taken with no structure, a lot of things are open to leniency based on ones understanding? everyone?s logic/understanding is limited does that mean we should verify with others? even then there is still limits and if we do and still don?t feel we are right do we go by what our heart/mind says though it?s possible we chose certain things because we have been affected due to social acceptance, desires, wants, needs?
well i do believe alot is open to leniency. would you have it any other way?
somewhere inside of you is a part that knows the answers to these questions... the trick is to get the rest of you to listen to that part.
Certainty can be unclear, in my opinion there is weakness?
the weak should turn to the strong... and who's more strong than god?
take care
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Asalamu alaikum,
Thanks for your responses..
Surah307. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
True.. let me make a point about my questions. Don?t you believe that certain things are not open for interpretation yet we still do it?
Lk in consideration to God..
Forums can be annoying, most of the time no one agrees with anyone and then it just makes you feel even more ticked off, or creates confusion and frustration.
Tay, sometimes making a decision is the hardest part, I put my trust in God, uncertainty is just an awful feeling
AaRoN it?s ok I have no wrinkles so if I get some I?d have to deal with it. I don?t believe everything is open to interpretation. I believe some things in the Quran can be taken on different levels/interpretations.
People have different interpretations and take certain things on different levels. Not everyone can be right though do you believe that sometimes 2 different views could be right, or even more? Basically what I?m saying is there isn?t just one right way is there?
About the homosexuals, their opinions are influenced by other things not just the same book. And its funny people can read the same book yet see a different picture in many aspects for example alcohol.
What consistency is there in Muslims other than believing in God? Everyone believes and ?follows? God to their own minds theories. Some things feels hmmm I dunno wrong, what unites Muslims? It?s strange, I find it strange that there are a branch of you who are close by yet fearful to meet, or be exposed or something or other... how is it that it?s the right way yet it?s so concealed? like do you believe Muslims have a duty to their fellow brothers/sisters in the community? Is a forum enough? Lots disassociate themselves from former sects yet establish into nothing. I think that isn?t entirely good or beneficial..
Not everything can be distinguished as simply as you think. Sometimes you read you don?t understand so you read again or get another opinion to get an understanding. Sometimes the issue isn?t about being right or wrong. I just feel there is tooo much leniency to much openness, which creates weaknesses within the community.
I have answers I just have concerns and uncertainty.
Asalamu alaikum )
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Peace Sarah,
Tay, sometimes making a decision is the hardest part, I put my trust in God, uncertainty is just an awful feeling
It gets easier with practice. Mercifully, God has put in immediate and long term rewards/consequences for our actions. Through living and being aware, we learn what decisions manifest what results. And this builds momentum, thus making the decision process easier with time.
Thomas Edison said, "I know 10,000 things that don't work". That's knowledge gained from "failure". He also said, "Every wrong decision brings me one step forward."
So, there are no wrong decisions as long as we learn from them.
Peace,
Tay -
Alaikum Salam Sis Sarah,
Asalamu alaikum,
Surah307. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.True.. let me make a point about my questions. Don?t you believe that certain things are not open for interpretation yet we still do it?
Yes, and as the verse shows us it is those with perversity who follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings that do so. As an example, the verses that tell us to strive and keep regular prayer and charity in our daily lives are fundamental in God's Religion. Yet, there are those who follow their own desire and search for so called "hidden meanings" they only do so to try and justify their own actions of how they do not follow these fundamental routines in their daily lives.
Daily Prayer and Charity are fundamental in Our Deen.
It gets easier with practice. Mercifully, God has put in immediate and long term rewards/consequences for our actions. Through living and being aware, we learn what decisions manifest what results. And this builds momentum, thus making the decision process easier with time.
Thomas Edison said, "I know 10,000 things that don't work". That's knowledge gained from "failure". He also said, "Every wrong decision brings me one step forward."
So, there are no wrong decisions as long as we learn from them.oh and Tay, a couple of points on your post.
Strange things to say "It gets easier with practice" when you are one who admits you do not practice daily prayer or follow any religous routine.
Also, I find it interesting that you quote the hadith of Thomas Edison. The difference would be Tesla vs. Edison right? In that case I imagine you'd be more Edison in your character -X
I don't know bro, I just get more and more inclined against your advice the more I read it. You seem to want others to follow your example of "no Religion" and "no Religous routine" that includes daily prayers. It's not right bro.
peace
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Peace m_mehdi,
Yes, and as the verse shows us it is those with perversity who follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings that do so. As an example, the verses that tell us to strive and keep regular prayer and charity in our daily lives are fundamental in God's Religion. Yet, there are those who follow their own desire and search for so called "hidden meanings" they only do so to try and justify their own actions of how they do not follow these fundamental routines in their daily lives.
I guess the people having an interpretation of salat and zakat differing from yours would define it not as hidden, but rather as the "original meaning"...
lk
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Peace M,
Strange things to say "It gets easier with practice" when you are one who admits you do not practice daily prayer or follow any religous routine.
I was talking about the decision-making process and Sarah's difficulty with it. Please look at her sentence that I quoted in my response
"sometimes making a decision is the hardest part, I put my trust in God, uncertainty is just an awful feeling"Also, I find it interesting that you quote the hadith of Thomas Edison. The difference would be Tesla vs. Edison right? In that case I imagine you'd be more Edison in your character
I'm not sure I know enough about either one to choose, nor what you're implying. I just happened to enjoy the quote, that's all.
I don't know bro, I just get more and more inclined against your advice the more I read it.
That's fine bro.
You seem to want others to follow your example of "no Religion" and "no Religous routine" that includes daily prayers.
Not at all, man. And I'm sorry you feel that way. This was strictly about Sarah's difficulty in making decisions. I did not attempt to steer her in any direction, only that we should make our decisions and have faith in God.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam all.
I guess the people having an interpretation of salat and zakat differing from yours would define it not as hidden, but rather as the "original meaning"...
Say's who? Also, it's not about the "interpretation" of prayer and or charity even though both are plain and simple as well as fundamental in practice.
Why are you inclined against Tay's (and Edison's) idea of learning from your mistakes and bad decisions?
I'm was not talking about Tay's Edison analogy and "quote". I'm talking in general about Tay's advice when it comes to matters of Faith and Religion. Regular Prayer is too important to cast aside and it doesn't matter how one tries and justify it. If one is looking for advice in regards to Faith and Religion they simply would not be served to take such advice from a person who professes not to follow any Religion or follow any Religious routine.
Tesla was A/C and Edison D/C. Tesla was the more knowledgeable and Edison the better at playing politics and perhaps a better businessman. There are things that an individual carries with them and that which resonates from them that spans across the entire spectrum of their lives.
The promotion of no daily prayer is a justification that has gone beyond bounds for any idividual who has come to such a conclusion.
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Peace M,
Clearly, my understanding of the arabic terms "salat", "muslim", and "islam" is different than yours. If you'd like to discuss these understandings then feel free to start a new thread or pm me. Or don't. But to continue slandering without understanding is not cool.
Peace,
Tay -
The promotion of no daily prayer is a justification that has gone beyond bounds for any idividual who has come to such a conclusion.
peace Mehdi,
I think what the word "prayer" means to us might be different. I don't believe in the ritual of bowing and prostrating and reading quran's verses. I don't do it.If one is looking for advice in regards to Faith and Religion they simply would not be served to take such advice from a person who professes not to follow any Religion or follow any Religious routine.
I don't follow any "religious routine" either. But that doesn't mean that I'm ignoring my spiritual side, or I'm not seeking spiritual development. I'm just doing what I have learned is the right thing. I don't think "salat" refers to ritual prayer, I don't think "qibla" is a physical direction, and I don't think that "islam" is the name of a religion.
And if we are on a forum where we debate and discuss these concepts, obviously we'll "promote" (I don't think that's the right word since we aren't preaching, but sharing) our individual understandings.
If you think there's a flaw in what Tay's saying, or what I'm saying, or what anyone else is saying, we can discuss that. That's what the forum's for. But to say that the other person should shut up because they aren't "religious" enough isn't fair, and it's against the spirit of this forum. -
LK Well one makes dua for guidance but still there is a guide the Quran and some aspects can leave you confused uncertain lost or unsure hmm for me anyway..
I know for a fact that my upbringing and past knowledge and wants, desires, needs influences my decision, so I like to make sure those things don?t affect my right choosing. Others probably wouldn?t care
Tay, After you make lots of decision I suppose it does get easier, though in certain aspects if you have no knowledge of things, your ignorance keeps you confused or uncertain until you learn and come to know, even then some ideologies can make one confused. I guess it?s true you try the wrong thing a few times here and there and then finally you find success though such matters are kinda well serious so you wouldn?t want to go down the wrong path.
M_MEHDI It is worrying that people believe they can find the hidden meaning and have complete certainty in it, to me I feel there is a weakness there and that people don?t realise their own weakness (desires, wants, and their up bring) can affect them
I think that?s the thing, everyone thinks their interpretation is the original meaning but I?m starting to think that more than one way can be right in certain aspects not all and it doesn?t necessarily mean it is ?the original meaning?.
Also another thing I find weakness is who represents us? We stand alone and weak... We have no one to defend us. I mean there could be a system where there are numerous people who can represent us and it kinda could be rotated if you had the skills, for fairness. Though the thing is its not established and I don?t think it ever will be. It?s almost like we will forever be waiting for a miracle and each to their own for the time being. To me that?s kinda worrying.
Salam
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Salam Sis Sarah,
Very nicely put sis... your entire post above! bravo
I know for a fact that my upbringing and past knowledge and wants, desires, needs influences my decision, so I like to make sure those things don?t affect my right choosing. Others probably wouldn?t care
In regards to your original post on this thread, for me, it's not so much about the certainty of interpetation of the allegorical portions rather than the practical results of the fundamental practices. Allegorical and fundamental are words apart not worlds apart. One such foundation in God's Religion for human kind is regular Prayer. The word prayer is not difficult at all to interpert. As I will get to phoenix's post later, we see that there is even difficulty for some to interpert such simple concept such as prayer. The question is why? I doubt the truth will come about in such a forum because the truth of it is likely to land, as you stated above, somewhere between, "upbringing and past knowledge and wants, desires, needs." Is it God who commands one not to pray? The answer is obvious, so we see a broad sense of justifications to interpert the the Quran in such a way in order to align God's Message to human life, instead of aligning our human life to God's Message.
There is nothing allegorical about prayer. There is not such thing as "figurative" prayer. There is also nothing to argue about this simple fact Everyone know that there is truely one way to pray. And that is with sincerity.
Regular sincere prayer for Guidance, as well as repentance and the asking for forgiveness from God allows the soul to not become what you so nicely described above in regards to such weaknesses.
In the Quran Allah tells us that He intends every facility for us and that He does not want to put us into difficulties. (2185)
Prayer is not nor should be a difficulty. A soul that is in the state of Islam wants nothing more than to be in prayer. Therefore such a practice is never a difficulty to a Muslim but rather a state of true bliss and joy.
However, for those not in the state of Islam (esp. when they admit it) they may see it different.
And that leads to
I think what the word "prayer" means to us might be different. I don't believe in the ritual of bowing and prostrating and reading quran's verses. I don't do it. I don't follow any "religious routine" either. But that doesn't mean that I'm ignoring my spiritual side, or I'm not seeking spiritual development. I'm just doing what I have learned is the right thing.
Phoenix,
From our recent discussion, if I go by what you post, you and me do not appear to be speaking english with eachother at all. hmm Every word seems to you to mean different things between us. giveup
There are a couple of things in your post I'd like to address. You say you don't pray traditional style, then you also add that you, like Tay, do not follow any Religious Routine. No where did I speak of traditional style of prayer in my posts while I am speaking of the importance of regular Prayer. So may I ask why you suddenly brought it up? hmm
I'm just doing what I have learned is the right thing.
Let me see if I got this right. You do not pray daily and you have learned that not praying daily is the "right thing" to do? Who taught you that? Where did you get that from, brother?
The other point I wanted to address from your post was this
If you think there's a flaw in what Tay's saying, or what I'm saying, or what anyone else is saying, we can discuss that. That's what the forum's for. But to say that the other person should shut up because they aren't "religious" enough isn't fair, and it's against the spirit of this forum.
Who said that? I hope you're not even implying such a thing towards me bro. Cause if you are then you would be completely unjustified in your doing so.
It's not a matter of what one wants to discuss or not, and I agree with you fully that this is what these forums are for. But, if I want to get advice on a Mercedes, I'm not going to go the Honda dealer to get it. Basicly, if you admit that you don't pray regularly and that you admit you are not always within the state of Islam and therefore not a being a Muslims (as in your definitions of of them not being titles but states) then I would be less likely to take your spritual adivce. It's simple common sense brother.
You might need to stop taking offence at your own lack of being in such a state brother.
So by all means give all the advice you like. But I'll wait for the post from you that says (at least for that moment) you are in the state of being a Muslim. Now, that's a post I can't wait to read.
peace be on you all. peace
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Salam Tay,
Sorry bro, your post was the last one on the previous page and I missed it! Sorry wasn't trying to ignor ya.
Clearly, my understanding of the arabic terms "salat", "muslim", and "islam" is different than yours. If you'd like to discuss these understandings then feel free to start a new thread or pm me. Or don't. But to continue slandering without understanding is not cool.
Bro, clearly also your understanding of the word slander is different too.
Don't worry bro, I understand what you post well enough.
peace
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peace Mehdi,
There are a couple of things in your post I'd like to address. You say you don't pray traditional style, then you also add that you, like Tay, do not follow any Religious Routine. No where did I speak of traditional style of prayer in my posts while I am speaking of the importance of regular Prayer. So may I ask why you suddenly brought it up?
I assumed that by "prayer" you meant "salat." Is that correct? If yes, then I don't think that salat is prayer, so I don't think it's a rule to pray daily. I do believe we should pray often and thank god and ask god for...whatever.
Who said that? I hope you're not even implying such a thing towards me bro. Cause if you are then you would be completely unjustified in your doing so.
I got from your posts that you didn't like what Tay was saying and wanted him to stop the "promotion" of his "not right" ideas. If that's not what you meant, then just ignore my earlier post.
It's not a matter of what one wants to discuss or not, and I agree with you fully that this is what these forums are for. But, if I want to get advice on a Mercedes, I'm not going to go the Honda dealer to get it. Basicly, if you admit that you don't pray regularly and that you admit you are not always within the state of Islam and therefore not a being a Muslims (as in your definitions of of them not being titles but states) then I would be less likely to take your spritual adivce. It's simple common sense brother.
You might need to stop taking offence at your own lack of being in such a state brother.
So by all means give all the advice you like. But I'll wait for the post from you that says (at least for that moment) you are in the state of being a Muslim. Now, that's a post I can't wait to read.
I never said that I am not trying to be "muslim." My point was that you and I disagree on what it is to be muslim. All sides are trying to be "good" and trying to serve God. We just disagree on how to do it. And we will all argue for our own sides. Amen.
The thing is, Tay was giving advice about the right thing, but according to you it wasn't the right advice. Well, actually, you had no problem with his advice, you just thought he was being hypocritical. Which means that you are not going by what Tay is actually doing, but by what he said he does. Once again you were putting too much importance on words. Words are tricky things. What some words mean to you, like "religion" and "prayer" might not mean the same to Tay or to me or to anyone. People can describe the same thing two very different ways, and even do the same thing two very different ways.