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  4. Why does god send a messenger?

Why does god send a messenger?

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    nerspi
    wrote on last edited by
    #41

    peace

    are you saying that we shouldn't believe prophets?

    and are you saying you won't believe in God until He tells you directly that He in fact exists?

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      Saleh
      wrote on last edited by
      #42

      peace

      are you saying that we shouldn't believe prophets?

      and are you saying you won't believe in God until He tells you directly that He in fact exists?

      Or until someone gives me good convincing answers to my questions.

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        nerspi
        wrote on last edited by
        #43

        peace

        so you don't believe if a human tells you?

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          unknownuser
          wrote on last edited by
          #44

          Peace all,

          God did not appear directly in front of the messengers either. Even the messenger did not know what was going to happen to him. Any one of us can KNOW The God through study of His creation and the signs in the horizons and within us, just like a messenger would have known.

          Even if an angel would appear in front of us, we might still not believe in the existence of The God, thinking it was some illusion or magic. The whole universe is an amazing and incredible miracle and proof of existence of The God and one can clearly "see" The God through His creation.

          The God has also sent an everlasting miracle to ALL OF US in the form of the message of al-qur'aan, which is accessible to everyone. That is exactly the same as hardwiring everyone's brain or having a recording there.

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            unknownuser
            wrote on last edited by
            #45

            Its normal, people often deny what they cannot understand

            They call a lie something that is beyond the limit of their knowledge and whose interpretation has not yet been revealed. Some people who lived before them also called Our revelations lies. Consider how terrible was the end of the unjust people!

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              Saleh
              wrote on last edited by
              #46

              Peace,

              peace

              so you don't believe if a human tells you?

              Sure I would. However, I need one of two things
              1- A miracle (I really can't see Quran as a miracle)
              2- Good logical answers to all my questions.

              Peace all,

              God did not appear directly in front of the messengers either. Even the messenger did not know what was going to happen to him. Any one of us can KNOW The God through study of His creation and the signs in the horizons and within us, just like a messenger would have known.

              Even if an angel would appear in front of us, we might still not believe in the existence of The God, thinking it was some illusion or magic. The whole universe is an amazing and incredible miracle and proof of existence of The God and one can clearly "see" The God through His creation.

              The God has also sent an everlasting miracle to ALL OF US in the form of the message of al-qur'aan, which is accessible to everyone. That is exactly the same as hardwiring everyone's brain or having a recording there.

              I respect your opinion on Quran, but after reading it and thinking about it I myself don't see it as a miracle. Again, if I am to be damned for using my brain and coming to a supposedly wrong and stupid conclusion that harms nobody then I hope God, if he exists, can use his mercy to forgive my honest mistake. Otherwise, I will still believe what I believe now unless someone can give me logical convincing answers.

              As for God appearing to me for me to believe, that is not what I am asking at all. God can let us know of his existence in many ways such as sending prophets with miracles more regularly, hardwiring our brains to know him the way birds know how to build nests, or simply telling us without showing himself the way he told the prophets.

              The universe is truely amazing indeed, but I believe we really know too little to understand how it came to existence. Just look at how ideas such as evolution and the fact that earth is spherical changed our understanding of the world we live in. Just as evolution helped us understand how life started, one day an revolutionary idea might help us understand how the universe started and why the universe is the way it is now.

              Its normal, people often deny what they cannot understand

              Yes it is normal. And since nobody really understands, God is setting us up for an everlasting life in hell because it is normal after all not to believe.

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                nerspi
                wrote on last edited by
                #47

                peace

                As I said, those verses can be interpretted in another way.

                could you give another interpretation of those verses?

                Those laws and statistics are based on our current understanding of the universe.

                and could you give another understanding of those laws and statistics.

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                  Saleh
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #48

                  peace

                  could you give another interpretation of those verses?

                  and could you give another understanding of those laws and statistics.

                  I already gave examples for both in my previous posts.

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                    nerspi
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #49

                    peace

                    could you give more examples. like the expansion of the universe, sky being a protected roof, movements of the mountains, 2 seas not mixing with each other...
                    lets see some other interpretations of those things.
                    if it was a human writing the quran, explain how could he know such things.

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                      Saleh
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #50

                      peace

                      could you give more examples. like the expansion of the universe, sky being a protected roof, movements of the mountains, 2 seas not mixing with each other...
                      lets see some other interpretations of those things.
                      if it was a human writing the quran, explain how could he know such things.

                      Peace,

                      Can you quote the verses you want me to interpret in another way (in arabic preferably)? I will try my best to look at them from a 1400 year old prespective.

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                        stillearning
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #51

                        AOA Saleh

                        Another simple philosophical question
                        Why does God send a messenger instead of letting everyone know for sure of his existence?

                        I am afraid I cannot give you a logical answer. Every answer that you have received I am sure makes sense to the author. I cannot give you a satisfactory answer but have a suggestion, may even seem vague or bizarre to you, with the knowledge from the scriptures look within yourself to see if you might be able to just glimpse what God might be, because it is not easy (if at all possible to define God). Also it might be worth pondering did God send messangers or did the messangers find God-give this a little thought.
                        Regards

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                          AaRoN
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #52

                          calling it the law of probability doesn't really make it a law... it's merely an observation of what has thus far occurred.

                          is it not perhaps a little far fetched to try and say what people 1400 years ago did or did not know about the sea, or the sky, or the universe? since we were not there and could not witness what they knew then it's alot of guesswork. it is always a symptom of the current generation to think they knew more than previous generations, but knowledge goes in cycles so nobody can say for sure.

                          i think the suggestion to look within is a good one.

                          also as was said, i don't think it occurred as though god one day just messaged some people... but i figure it would be more along the lines of these people sought the answers to these questions and thus became inspired.

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                            RiseUpMyPpl
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #53

                            Dear Saleh,

                            You want to know why God doesn't create us to be automatically sure of him...

                            1099 And had your Lord willed, all the people on Earth in their entirety would have believed. Would you force the people to make them believe?

                            We are not all meant to believe!

                            Life and the Qur'an are like trying to crack a combination and fitting the pieces of a puzzle together. The Qur'an teaches us that we are here to SEPARATE TRUTH FROM FALSEHOOD. God has deliberately created us to seek and search instead of just know.

                            68 And they said "If only an angel were sent down to us?" But if We had sent down an angel, then the matter would be over, and they would not be reprieved.

                            69 And if We had chosen an angel, We would have made him appear as a man, and We would have confused them in what they already are confused.

                            As you can see these verses are comfirming "THE MATTER" that is a part of God's plan.

                            You wonder why God doesn't keep sending messengers with miracles (well actually he does, those who help to promulgate the miraculous Qur'an) however, I suppose you mean prophets "parting seas" and so on? Well this verse kinda gives an answer to that...

                            67 And if We had sent down to you a scripture already written on paper, and they touched it with their own hands, then those who have rejected would say "This is but clear magic!"

                            Would you really believe if you saw a man perfroming a "miracle"? You would most likely think it's some kind of optical illusion, like that of criss angel or david copperfield! God has done us one better, he has givin us something even greater than if we were to see one of the prophets...he has given us the MIRACULOUS QUR'AN! Just as the creation right down to our cells has been created with a pattern/design, the Qur'an has also been created with a pattern/design http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm
                            I have a handout I received on Saturday from a lecture with even more patterns found in the Qur'an. Can you honestly tell me this is all a mere coincidence? Perhaps if it was just one, I might say it's by chance, but coincidence after coincidence?

                            4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?

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                              nerspi
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #54

                              Can you quote the verses you want me to interpret in another way (in arabic preferably)? I will try my best to look at them from a 1400 year old prespective.

                              peace

                              here are some verses
                              5147 Waalssamaa banaynaha bi-aydin wa-inna lamoosiAAoona

                              2132 WajaAAalna alssamaa saqfan mahfoothan wahum AAan ayatiha muAAridoona

                              2788 Watara aljibala tahsabuha jamidatan wahiya tamurru marra alssahabi sunAAa Allahi allathee atqana kulla shay-in innahu khabeerun bima tafAAaloona

                              5519-20 Maraja albahrayni yaltaqiyani Baynahuma barzakhun la yabghiyani

                              2314 Thumma khalaqna alnnutfata AAalaqatan fakhalaqna alAAalaqata mudghatan fakhalaqna almudghata AAithaman fakasawna alAAithama lahman thumma ansha/nahu khalqan akhara fatabaraka Allahu ahsanu alkhaliqeena

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                                unknownuser
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #55

                                Peace all,

                                Articles on scientific facts in al-qur'aan

                                http//rationalreality.50webs.com/hec.htm

                                http//rationalreality.50webs.com/sci.htm

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                                  Saleh
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #56

                                  Peace,

                                  peace

                                  here are some verses
                                  5147 Waalssamaa banaynaha bi-aydin wa-inna lamoosiAAoona

                                  2132 WajaAAalna alssamaa saqfan mahfoothan wahum AAan ayatiha muAAridoona

                                  2788 Watara aljibala tahsabuha jamidatan wahiya tamurru marra alssahabi sunAAa Allahi allathee atqana kulla shay-in innahu khabeerun bima tafAAaloona

                                  5519-20 Maraja albahrayni yaltaqiyani Baynahuma barzakhun la yabghiyani

                                  2314 Thumma khalaqna alnnutfata AAalaqatan fakhalaqna alAAalaqata mudghatan fakhalaqna almudghata AAithaman fakasawna alAAithama lahman thumma ansha/nahu khalqan akhara fatabaraka Allahu ahsanu alkhaliqeena

                                  5147 I am assuming this is the verse about the universe expanding?
                                  Notice that the sky is "built with hands" in the verse, which goes along with the theory that people thought the sky was a physical ceiling. "wa-inna lamoosiAAoona" can mean "and indeed we made it spacious". I can see how it can be interpretted as "and we will expand it" though.

                                  2132 I have no idea which scientific fact is here. The way I am reading it is "We made the sky a preserved ceiling and they are deniers of our signs". By the way, people in the old days wondered why the sky did not fall on them. This verse seems to fit that as God is the one who preserving it from falling.

                                  2788 The verses around this verse are talking about the day of judgement and I see no reason why this one is different. This verse can be easily understood as "and you see the mountains, you think they're immovable, they move and disappear just like the clouds (on judgement day); the doing of God who perfected everything ...."

                                  5519-20 I don't think that this "observation" was just recently discovered. It was not hard to observe where rivers meet seas, you find one area that is salty and another that is not. What is recent is that we understand what happens now.

                                  2314 I read many arguments that don't agree with these stages. I will let you do the searching yourself.

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                                    nerspi
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #57

                                    peace

                                    2132 is talking about a protected roof. it is protecting us from things from space...

                                    and are you saying that their interpretations are wrong and yours is right?

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                                      Saleh
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #58

                                      peace

                                      2132 is talking about a protected roof. it is protecting us from things from space...

                                      and are you saying that their interpretations are wrong and yours is right?

                                      It is a protected roof not a protective roof. The roof is protected not protecting.

                                      And I am not saying my interpretation is right. I am saying that they're valid and fit the words. Same as yours. All I am saying is that a person might give Quran an honest thought and not come up with the same conclusion as you did. They weren't arrogant about it or anything, they just thought that it was not a divine message because they interpretted it in another way. Is that person to be punished for eternity? Shouldn't God have let him know about his existence through more precise ways that require no interpretation (like the way prophets knew for example)?

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                                        nerspi
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #59

                                        peace

                                        It is a protected roof not a protective roof. The roof is protected not protecting.

                                        right, my bad.

                                        Shouldn't God have let him know about his existence through more precise ways that require no interpretation (like the way prophets knew for example)?

                                        prophets were chosen.
                                        besides, we are here to search and think and use our brains,
                                        we wont just get everything on a platter.

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                                          Saleh
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #60

                                          Peace,

                                          peace
                                          prophets were chosen.

                                          Would a fair God have chosen people

                                          besides, we are here to search and think and use our brains

                                          That is correct. However, people who use their brains and come up with the wrong conclusion will go to hell right? they will go to hell because they made a mistake that really hurt nobody and their only crime was the imperfection that they were created with that caused them to not come to the supposedly right conclusion.

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