Who are the true believers? please vote.Thanks.

ijaz

Salaam donya,

Caring about humanity and philanthropy is idol worship? hmm, interesting. So this makes it seem that our only purpose is to worship, and doing good to others is just an afterthought.

No please do not be awkward, I explained clearly what makes idolworship .i.e. in this case calling Jesus son of God..

I was under the impression that "idols" are things which are man-made. Doing good to others and the will to do good, as evinced in the Quran, is supposed to be intrinsic to our nature, a God-given instinct, so I don't think that in itself would classify as idolatry.

Once again you going of the point, there is nothing wrong with doing good, but there is giganticaly wrong with calling Jesus son of God, this sin wipes away all the good one has done..

How are people supposed to know that it is their RESPONSIBILITY to investigate religions and come to the "right decision"? Is this an instinct? If you look at the people in the world, for most people religion is an INHERITED thing...they were graciously blessed with the opportunity to learn about religion by being introduced by their families. Otherwise, today especially, religion can seem like somewhat of a silly thing. Religion is not necessary for the lay person of the modern world, unlike back then. Something to think about.

Best,

Christian read bible and Muslims read Quran, but majority do not even grasp the bare essentials, that is why you are different from Sunnis. Tell me where does it say the Jesus is son of God in the bible, but some christians believe that.

God with His immense mercy has left signs every where to contemplate and reflect, if people do not do that then its their own responsibility..

Let me give you some basics of God's Mercy on man kind.

God with His Almighty Grace gave us three chances to redeem ourselves, this world is our third and last chance, so please do not say that God is unfair, let me go through each case with quotes from the Quran;

First chance;
The Great Feud

Say, "Here is awesome news.

"That you are totally oblivious to.

"I had no knowledge previously, about the feud in the High Society.*

This is description of the great fued, before which we were all angels, we humans rebelled and wanted not to be part of Gods creation, ie idolised Satan, we should have been banished, however, God categoriesed us as humans.

Second Chance;
Freedom of Choice

We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

God gave us another chance where we were offered freedom of choice, the animals and all other creatures refused but we accepted it.

Third;
He thus duped them with lies. As soon as they tasted the tree, their bodies became visible to them, and they tried to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise. Their Lord called upon them "Did I not enjoin you from that tree, and warn you that the devil is your most ardent enemy?"

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged our souls, and unless You forgive us and have mercy on us, we will be losers."

He said, "Go down as enemies of one another. On earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile."

The earth was created and we were sent down..

Now you would say that is enough, however, God has given fourty years to each human to observe, reflect and decide who their God is. The age of responsibility is 40.

That should be enough don't you think..

40 The Age of Decision

We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him arduously, gave birth to him arduously, and took intimate care of him for thirty months. When he reaches maturity, and reaches the age of forty,* he should say, "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Let my children be righteous as well. I have repented to You; I am a submitter."

Regards

Ijaz

ijaz

Salaam mz,

Salaams,

here is some info;

they don't want to do anything worthwhile for humanity.

036.047
YUSUFALI And when they are told, "Spend ye of (the bounties) with which Allah has provided you," the Unbelievers say to those who believe "Shall we then feed those whom, if Allah had so willed, He would have fed, (Himself)?- Ye are in nothing but manifest error."

I think unbelievers believe in kismet- that everything is pre-ordained.

And also disbelievers don't give - i think.

Gods Bless all.

I am sure you are mislead that disbelievers don't give, let me give you an example would you say Tony Blair or President Bush are believers, I am sure you will say that they are not, however they do give to charity, and there are many more examples..

Regards

Ijaz

mz

Salaams All,

i don't think anybody can serve someone who is not present in life, can you? i don't think so Br.

But if you say it isn't serving but worshipping then you will be sending Jesus to hell according to 2198 - i think.

and i do think 575 is an example for us all not to serve others then Allah, and do think it is in the past tense Br.

They did blaspheme who said "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! serve Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah - Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help..
-- Sura 575

Surely you and what you serve besides Allah
are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come.
-- Sura 2198

can anyone explain all this.

Thanks All.

ijaz

Salaam mz,

Salaams All,

i don't think anybody can serve someone who is not present in life, can you? i don't think so Br.

I agree with you on above no one can serve anyone who is dead!!

But if you say it isn't serving but worshipping then you will be sending Jesus to hell according to 2198 - i think.

No I don't beleive that Jesus will go to Hell, because we know he was not an Idol and that he worshipped God alone. 2198 is an example of Idols who are Idols such as Sadaam Hussain, and so called saints who say they can do miracles for people like giving them sons besides daughters, these are the idols which are addressed in 2198. These idols also say that if you believe in what we believe you will go to heaven etc, these are evil people.

When Jesus died he did not know that he will be set up as an idol, he is made into idol by people he did not wanted to be an idol..

and i do think 575 is an example for us all not to serve others then Allah, and do think it is in the past tense Br.

They did blaspheme who said "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! serve Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah - Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help..
-- Sura 575

Surely you and what you serve besides Allah
are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come.
-- Sura 2198

can anyone explain all this.

Thanks All.

Yes we should ultimately serve God, but it does not mean if your Boss asks you to do something for him, you should decline, because you can only serve God. You can serve God by serving people as well.. I think the word you are looking for is worship, and it is true that one should worship God Alone, using Quran Alone.

Regards

Ijaz

mz

Salamms ijaz,

but it does not mean if your Boss asks you to do something for him, you should decline, because you can only serve God. You can serve God by serving people as well...

I think Br. you can only serve God by serving humanity , by applying His attributes- there isn't another way, is there?

Tony Blair and President Bush are believers...

Unless they ever contradict any of Gods attributes at any time then they would be mushriks- i think.

certainly they do blaspheme when they say Jesus is God - but saying that out of a programmed belief doesn't make you a non believer unless you go against any of the attributes of God - i think.

i think most of us are mushriks some of the time, or do you apply the attributes 100% of the time yourself?

ijaz

Salaam mz,

Salamms ijaz,

I think Br. you can only serve God by serving humanity , by applying His attributes- there isn't another way, is there?

Yes there is by following Quran and doing the salat, fasting, Hajj, proclaiming Shahada that there is no God accept the one God, all these things have no one involved accept you and your God.. And these are the real serving..where you build yourself as a true believer..

Unless they ever contradict any of Gods attributes at any time then they would be mushriks- i think.

I know Tony Blair and Bush both believe that Jesus is son of God and that is enough for me to know that they are disbelievers. Its up to you what you believe..

certainly they do blaspheme when they say Jesus is God - but saying that out of a programmed belief doesn't make you a non believer unless you go against any of the attributes of God - i think.

What about going to church and worshipping to Jesus, is that not a sin, I have seen Tony Blair going to church..

i think most of us are mushriks some of the time, or do you apply the attributes 100% of the time yourself?

I hope I am not mushrik at any time, because God tells us the shirk wipes away all the good one has done.. So brother do not include me in your group, thank you, I believe in one God and He guides me when ever I lose path..

Regards

Ijaz

mz

Salaams Ijaz,

I hope I am not mushrik at any time, because God tells us the shirk wipes away all the good one has done.. So brother do not include me in your group, thank you, I believe in one God and He guides me when ever I lose path..

hoping doesn't accomplish as much as doing the right...
shirk wipes away all good one has done ........and where does it say so..please tell me as it is a gigentic statement.
and my brother in islam how do you know you are being guided .....

Thanks Br.

phoenix1

Ijaz, you are right that disbelievers will do good only for themselves, and the believers will do good for the right reason. But that doesn't mean a person who calls themselves Christian and believes in Jesus is doing it JUST BECAUSE Jesus said so. Maybe it's independent of that. In that case, it doesn't matter.
But false beliefs are a problem if we take our actions solely based on those false beliefs.
If we have a false concept of god, then, like Abraham, we might do something bad because we thought that's what god wanted us to do.

And I agree with mz, serving god is all about bringing it's attributes to this world. Anyone who is kind, generous, merciful, even for a moment, is truly god's servant for that moment.

ijaz

Salaam mz,

Salaams Ijaz,

hoping doesn't accomplish as much as doing the right...

In fact I am sure that I never idol worshipped besides God since I got the message!!

shirk wipes away all good one has done ........and where does it say so..please tell me as it is a gigentic statement.

Here is the verse where it says that idol worship wipes away any good one has done;

Such is GOD's guidance, with which He guides whomever He chooses from among His servants. Had any of them fallen into idolatry, their works would have been nullified.

and my brother in islam how do you know you are being guided .....

The answer is simple I check in Quran what I am about to do, and I use mathematical miracle of 19 a lot to reduce the chance of doubt. 7431..

Kind Regards

Ijaz

ijaz

Salaam Lobster,

And I agree with mz, serving god is all about bringing it's attributes to this world. Anyone who is kind, generous, merciful, even for a moment, is truly god's servant for that moment.

I disagree with what you said above, I believe in the following verse;

GOD does not hold you responsible for the mere utterance of oaths; He holds you responsible for your innermost intentions. GOD is Forgiver, Clement.

So if the intentions were in your above scenario it is in the cause of Jesus or Muhammad then that person is not God's servent. And one can tell what ones intentions are using our minds, eyses and verifying what one is doing;

Crucial Advice

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

Kind Regards

Ijaz

mz

Salaams Ijaz,

Such is GOD's guidance, with which He guides whomever He chooses from among His servants. Had any of them fallen into idolatry, their works would have been nullified.

689 is talking about the prophets , wouldn?t that be slightly different for a layman. Especially if the layman does it as a mere lip service.

006.085
YUSUFALI And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias all in the ranks of the righteous
006.086
YUSUFALI And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot and to all We gave favour above the nations
006.087
YUSUFALI (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way.
006.088
YUSUFALI This is the guidance of Allah He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His servents. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them.
006.089
YUSUFALI These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not.

I think only thing we see different in our understanding is you call Abd worship , but to me there is no such suggestion in the quran, it is giving of services to things around us.

phoenix1

peace Ijaz,
Yes, whatever we do has to be with the right intention. We have to believe in those attributes.
The thing is, doing something thinking "I am doing this for god" is not enough, not even right, because you don't know what god is. What you think god is could be different from reality.

We have to understand what "one god" actually means. Obviously, there are billions who think they are following one god but they don't even know what that "god" is, and there is no evidence at all for that god that they follow.

We know what's right and wrong. We do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because of Jesus or Muhammad or God.

ANd I don't think we can or even should guess someone's intentions.

mr__humble

i am very impressed with lobster's comments in this post, he has improved significantly since last year when i used to post regularly on this site

mr__humble

Salaam,

I would say that the true believers are truly consistent for what they believe, what they do, and go forth and establish betterment towards this world betterment towards themselves and others, not only that but also the true believers hang on and know the necessary ingredient to survive poisonous atmospheres and hope from bitterness for the well being, benefit for mankind.

from my definition, the true believers are the Nobel prize winners, each and every one of them, i don't think none of them were fake.

those are recognized true believers. Although there are plenty unrecognized true believers in this world those who we don't immediately see with our eyes. I bet the Koran talks about them as being "helping us from behind", i am pretty sure the Koran talks about behind the scenes true action for benefit/truth.

what i posted is a secular definition, plagiarized from Alfred Nobel's will. this has nothing to do with religion. the Koranic definition? the answer to that...God almighty knows

Peace, Rifat

mz

i am very impressed with lobster's comments in this post, he has improved significantly since last year when i used to post regularly on this site

Yes he is giving good sound direction to us- and i am sure it will help us all in our search for the correct understandings of what to follow, it is all so simple if people give it a few moments to understand- i think.

Would be interesting to know what lobster was called previously though and whether it is a new understanding of his.

As time is a healer but also a teacher for the wise.

God Bless Rifat.

ijaz

Salaam mz,

Salaams Ijaz,

Such is GOD's guidance, with which He guides whomever He chooses from among His servants. Had any of them fallen into idolatry, their works would have been nullified.

689 is talking about the prophets , wouldn?t that be slightly different for a layman. Especially if the layman does it as a mere lip service.

Brother there is no difference between prophet and believer as far as God's tests are involved, both are judged by the same rules, prophets and messengers set examples for the believers..

However, when one idol worship then you nullify your work, besides the verse I showed you earlier there are many more which say the same including for a lay man;

Oppression Condemned

They ask you about the Sacred Months and fighting therein say, "Fighting therein is a sacrilege. However, repelling from the path of GOD and disbelieving in Him and in the sanctity of the Sacred Masjid, and evicting its people, are greater sacrileges in the sight of GOD. Oppression is worse than murder." They will always fight you to revert you from your religion, if they can. Those among you who revert from their religion, and die as disbelievers, have nullified their works in this life and the Hereafter. These are the dwellers of Hell, wherein they abide forever.

From among their ancestors, their descendants, and their siblings, we chose many, and we guided them in a straight path.

Such is GOD's guidance, with which He guides whomever He chooses from among His servants. Had any of them fallen into idolatry, their works would have been nullified.

The idol worshipers are not to frequent the masjids of GOD, while confessing their disbelief. These have nullified their works, and they will abide forever in Hell.

Idol Worship Nullifies All Work

It has been revealed to you, and to those before you that if you ever commit idol worship, all your works will be nullified, and you will be with the losers.

I think only thing we see different in our understanding is you call Abd worship , but to me there is no such suggestion in the quran, it is giving of services to things around us.

I hope the above verses are enough evidence for you..

Regards

Ijaz

phoenix1

Ijaz, I think it's obvious that if your intentions aren't right, whatever you do is nullified. If I help a poor child with the intention of turning him into a drug dealer, it wouldn't count, would it?
peace

p.s. Rifat, if you wanna tell me you're impressed with me, please use PM.
Oh, and I was previously called phoenix1 (the majority of the time). I might go back to it.

ijaz

peace Ijaz,
Yes, whatever we do has to be with the right intention. We have to believe in those attributes.
The thing is, doing something thinking "I am doing this for god" is not enough, not even right, because you don't know what god is. What you think god is could be different from reality.

I would be gratefull if you could prove what you said above with some quotes from Quran, because I am sure you are making it up as you go along.

Brother if you have not found God yet then probably you never will..

I can give you hundreds of examples from the Quran, which describes God's attributes, there is one verse which actualy but allegoricaly describe God, I do not understand what more you want to think what God is like..

We have to understand what "one god" actually means. Obviously, there are billions who think they are following one god but they don't even know what that "god" is, and there is no evidence at all for that god that they follow.

Brother I can assure you that I understand what one God is, because I have been following Quran Alone for over 15 years, in few words God is All the Goodness in the entire universe.

We know what's right and wrong. We do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because of Jesus or Muhammad or God.

Don't be to sure that you know what is good and what is bad, because uptill now you have been telling me bad is good and good is bad based on your posts and my replies..

I do not know what your background is but in my past I have wittnessed some thing called Khattums, which are in the cause of Muhammad, praying through Muhammad, which was plain idolworship.. I am sure there are many praying and charity sessions for Jesus..

ANd I don't think we can or even should guess someone's intentions.

I was not talking about guessing some ones intentions I was talking about distinguishing between believers and disbelievers, which Muhammad did all the time, and it is valid according to Quran..

The following are few verses which support may argument, and there are many more examples in the Quran;

What afflicted you the day the two armies clashed was in accordance with GOD's will, and to distinguish the believers. And to expose the hypocrites who were told, "Come fight in the cause of GOD, or contribute." They said, "If we knew how to fight, we would have joined you." They were closer to disbelief then than they were to belief. They uttered with their mouths what was not in their hearts. GOD knows what they conceal.

As a matter of fact, (they only say this because) their secrets have been exposed. If they go back, they will commit exactly the same crimes. They are liars.

Important Criterion

This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.

The Weak Believers

When your Lord willed that you leave your home, to fulfill a specific plan, some believers became exposed as reluctant believers.

Kind regards

Ijaz

mz

Salaams Br,

May be this is all humbug to you but after four years of studying the quran this is my view.

Lets start

If I was to think there is someone who shares in the authority with someone called Allah ? where is the cause in that if any and what is its effect?

NONE! - I think.

When I serve other then the attributes of Allah other then all those good actions, then indeed there is a cause and an effect which is actually opposite to the actions produced by the good action of the attributes.

Allah says be kind well try the opposite may be because of your friends doing thus ? certainly then your actions will produce a result opposite to the attribute of being kind.

And that to me is called shirk- the cause and effect become other then that of Allah- so you are serving other then Allah.

Now let?s see for what the quran is saying;

039.051
YUSUFALI Nay, the evil results of their Deeds overtook them. And the wrong-doers of this (generation) - the evil results of their Deeds will soon overtake them (too), and they will never be able to frustrate (Our Plan)!
039.053
039.054
YUSUFALI "Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will), before the Penalty comes on you after that ye shall not be helped.
039.055
YUSUFALI "And follow the best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the Penalty comes on you - of a sudden while ye perceive not!-
039.056
YUSUFALI "Lest the soul should (then) say 'Ah! Woe is me!- In that I neglected (my duty) towards Allah, and was but among those who mocked!'-
039.057
YUSUFALI "Or (lest) it should say 'If only Allah had guided me, I should certainly have been among the righteous!'-
039.058
YUSUFALI "Or (lest) it should say when it (actually) sees the penalty 'If only I had another chance, I should certainly be among those who do good!'
039.059
YUSUFALI "(The reply will be) 'Nay, but there came to thee my Signs, and thou didst reject them thou wast Haughty, and became one of those who reject faith!'"
039.060
YUSUFALI On the Day of Judgment wilt thou see those who told lies against Allah;- their faces will be turned black; Is there not in Hell an abode for the Haughty?
039.061
YUSUFALI But Allah will deliver the righteous to their place of salvation no evil shall touch them, nor shall they grieve.
039.063
YUSUFALI To Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth and those who reject the Signs of Allah,- it is they who will be in loss.
039.064
YUSUFALI Say "Is it some one other than Allah that ye order me to serve, O ye ignorant ones?"

039.065
YUSUFALI But it has already been revealed to thee,- as it was to those before thee,- "If thou wert to join (gods with Allah), truly fruitless will be thy work (in life), and thou wilt surely be in the ranks of those who lose (all spiritual good)".

The serving or worshipping is via our actions only.
The above ayah?s are depicting those who serve Allah and those who don?t serve Allah ? via our actions only.

Thanks.