Got som important Questions about Adultery?
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We never said it is OK to attack someone. We said they are not affected and they are naturally protected, naturally being "by nature" not "of course".
- bereaved psychologically (who had a horrible experience in their early years such as molested or raped children) or emotionally (death of partner/love); homosexual or people who are not attracted to the opposite sex; frigid (the don't want to have sex).
I should also add to the second category nuns and monks.
! So God has allowed us to throw unfounded > accusation At Red category in an attempt to bring betterment in their agonised lives. o o
) ) '( '(rotfl rotfl brickwall brickwall elektro elektro ignore ignore voodoo voodoo
Your highness try and make use of this giveup , and accept that your response of "offering me to the lions" was an honest mistake ,when i declared your statement as "sweeping"
By the way, accept my appreciation for getting 5 green stars. Congratulations for being crowned as a moderator. bravo bravo
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! So God has allowed us to throw unfounded >D accusation At Red category in an attempt to bring betterment in their agonised lives. o o
No one is allowed to throw any accusations against anybody. You will not throw accusations against these people in the first place, and if one does, the rumour will not live long.
Any way, according to the "chaste" understanding, and since there is no definition for chaste, anyone can accuse any woman and say she is not chaste and that's why she is accused!! See what I mean? This would apply to any other meaning for "mu7sanaat", but here, the difference is that rumours will hardly be issued in the first place. Imagine someone accusing a hermaphrodite of playing around with a man/woman.
By the way, accept my appreciation for getting 5 green stars. Congratulations for being crowned as a moderator.
Thank you! You called me "your majesty" and the next day I have a crown!
You are my sheikh now hailnow
Next time call me "Bill Gates" please eat. -
wow wow
who shifted this thread here after three full pages were posted under general category? and what kind of relevance it has to the topic marriage and divorce?
It took me two days to find this. And who so ever did it , he/she did not have the courtesy to leave a note indicating its destination. I would request any moderator to kindly shift back this thread to its original category, or if it has to be shifted somewhere , it should be placed under "Questions and comments on Quran" category.
siki
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What gets amputated by an accident in a female to make her impotent confused? and why are they being excluded in 24-4 confused? and if somebody cant have sex , does that mean that we can go on accusing her? brickwall
siki
Salaam Subject siki
The cases I gave examples of do not apply only to females. e.g a blocked vagina does not apply to men, and amputee does not apply to women. Subject! I do not think I have to think for you!!
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;D Your highness ! did you hide this thread here?   Oh i see, May i submit humbly? hail This is a gross misuse of your Royal Authority nope
But why did you have to do this ??? OK, I got it ! yes See you muscle in some other thread. >D jedi
siki peace
Hey!! Don't be so quick to accuse me! I did not move it.
And why "some other thread"? What's wrong with "marriage and divorce"? I think it is more appropriate than (what was the previous category?). -
Peace Siki
I moved the thread here because adultery is a marital issue. Next time read the categories before you make your posts. They will be moved without warning sometimes. Often enough you guys are reminded to read the categories before you make posts. Also I moved it after 3 pages because I noticed it then since I've not been on-line frequently.
Joe
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Peace Siki
I moved the thread here because adultery is a marital issue. Next time read the categories before you make your posts. They will be moved without warning sometimes. Often enough you guys are reminded to read the categories before you make posts. Also I moved it after 3 pages because I noticed it then since I've not been on-line frequently.
Joe
Peace joe
) Me and samia were thrashing out the meaning of an ayat, and were trying to sort out "Mohsinnats", "false accusation" , "fornication" etc, which i suppose has no connection with Marriage or divorce, moreover I just wanted to bring The Topic, "Can a muslimah marry a non muslim?" to your kind attention, It is loitering in the general section for quite some time now, and i suppose, you are, around this time.
handshake no hard feelings brother
peace
siki
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Proposing an alternative understanding
Spirit of the laws regulating sexuality avoiding associated pain and trouble that might come as a result. Anything that goes beyond is a non-Quranic restriction on liberties, whatever our own moral view on them.
'afeef in Arabic can be translated not just as "chaste", but also as "clean" => Open to interpretation.
Zina is adultery, so it doesn't cover extra-marital sex. Many include fornication, but that's an addition. Extra-marital sex is not covered by the Quran; in support of this interpretation, see traditions which allowed nikah urfi/misya/mut'a, which if we don't split hairs, are equivalent to any normal non matrimonial relationship in the Western world today. Thus extra-marital sex is not forbidden.
Adultery Are consenting swingers adulterers? They probably don't consider themselves to be so, and they're not doing any harm to anyone. The law doesn't apply to them (remember, the spirit of the law, your reason is there to understand it). Same for pornstars.
The lashes and the four witnesses now lashes are serious business. Hence the need for four witnesses. Assuming all conditions are met for the punishment, the spirit of the law primes (again), and to understand it and apply it, we need the context lashes might have been appropriate then, they're not now, punishment of an equivalent value (e.g. prison, fine, whatever is deemed both equivalent and acceptable lest you want to turn any civilized person away from the way of God). Mind you, words themselves can be redefined, especially in a legal context. E.g. when the French civil code speaks of the king or chariot, it means the president or a car. The same can be done for lashes.
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Salam David_K. The claim that there exists prohibitions against adultery in the Quran is false.
The words zani wa zanit in the Quran, from which the root zan and zinah are extracted, and incorrectly claimed to be adultery, are in fact of an Aramaic root. In Aramaic zani was zanit mean prostitute and prostitutee.
Therefore a discussion of adultery is moot. Ther verses are prohibitions on prostitution, not adultery.
Allah taught man the names of all things.
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Salam David_K. The claim that there exists prohibitions against adultery in the Quran is false.
The words zani wa zanit in the Quran, from which the root zan and zinah are extracted, and incorrectly claimed to be adultery, are in fact of an Aramaic root. In Aramaic zani was zanit mean prostitute and prostitutee.
Therefore a discussion of adultery is moot. Ther verses are prohibitions on prostitution, not adultery.
Really?
241-3 the woman and the man guilty of prostitution?
the prostitute man does not marry except the prostitute woman? nopeWala taqraboo alzzina innahu kana fahishatan wasaa sabeelan
1732 And do not approach/near the adultery/fornication, that it truly was/is an enormous/atrocious deed, and a bad/evil/harmful way/path.Zina encompasses all fahisha including prostitution.
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Salam nun de plume. Allah does not say "zina encompasses all fasiha including prostitution" That is your invention.
Allah says in Al Israa 1732 And do not go near prostitution it is shameful and an evil way.
The translation of this word is an example of how the original meaning of zani which is prostitution has been confused by slang. A good example of this is the word bad in english, which is now used in slang to mean good. Current usage of the word zina in Arabic is a slang derivative of the original meaning of the word for prostitution.
This is why even a native Arabic speaker must be cautious when translating because native Arabic speakers are schooled in current usage of Arabic words, and generally not schooled in the usage of Arabic words at the time of the revelation of the Quran. The word zani has no Arabic root, it has an Aramaic root, and in Aramaic the definition is unambiguous, zani is defined as prostitute.
The question is, is adultery a fasiha? Allah established many wives for a man which is not a fasiha. Adultery is a married man engaging in sexual relations with anyone other than his singular wife. A momin who has four wives is an adulterer by the definition of adultery. Therefore it is clear that adultery is not a fasiha.
Allah knows all the names.
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Salam Al Araf,
Allah does not say "zina encompasses all fasiha including prostitution" That is your invention.
Allah says in Al Israa 1732 And do not go near prostitution it is shameful and an evil way.
Wala taqraboo alzzina innahu kana fahishatan wasaa sabeelan
1732 And do not approach/near the adultery/fornication, that it truly was/is an enormous/atrocious deed, and a bad/evil/harmful way/path.What exactly does "alzzina innahu kana fahishatan" mean other than zina that it truly is fahisha?
Is your interpretation below correct?
Alzzaniyatu waalzzanee
242 The prostitute woman and the prostitute man - flog each of them with a hundred stripesAlzzanee la yankihu illa zaniyatan
243 The prostitute man does not marry except the prostitute womanDictionary prostitute
- One who solicits and accepts payment for sex acts.
- One who sells one's abilities, talent, or name for an unworthy purpose.
Dictionary adultery
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse. -
Salam nun de plume. There is a reason why I chose the terms "prostitute" and "prostitutee"
A prostitute is a person who sells sexual services, a prostitutee is a person who buys sexual services. A prostitute can be male or female, a prostitutee can be male or female. Examples are a women who sells sexual services to a man, a man who sells sexual services to a woman, a man who sells sexual services to a man, a woman who sells sexual services to a woman. All these types of people are prohibited in nikah to a momin.
For example there is a man who has been with a prostitute, he is forbidden in nikah to a momin; there is a woman who has been a prostitute, she is forbidden in nikah to a momin; I am sure you can work out from this who is forbidden in nikah to a momin. This rule also provides the following permissions If a woman has been a prostitute, she is permitted to have a nikah with a man who has been with a prostitute; if a man has been to prostitutes, he can have a nikah with a prostitute; I am sure you can work out the rest of this rule as well.
We have no disagreement when it comes to the definition of prostitute. I need to emphasize the word prostitutee, which is the person who purchases the services of a prostitute. Zanee = prostitute, Zaniya = prostitutee, zina = prostitution.
I am aware of the dictionary definition you have provided with regard to adultery. Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse. Notice the use of the term "lawful spouse" In the western systems, having more than one wife is "unlawful" and "bigamy" and therefore a momin with a second wife is guilty of "bigamy" under the western system. Under the Islamic system his second wife is lawful and not fasiha.
This is why I am averse to using western terminologies when discussing Quran. Western concepts of adultery and fornication are alien concepts, their definitions are in severe conflict with the Quran. What Allah says in the Quran is lawful under the hudood, these western systems claim is illegal. As a momin I reject the imposition of western concepts, and take my guidance as to what is legal from the Quran.
Allah is the lawgiver.
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Salam Al Araf.
There is a reason why I chose the terms "prostitute" and "prostitutee"
Yes I know exactly ? definition of zina as adultery/fornication contradicts hadith on stoning.
By new definition of prostitute those having extra marital flings and singles pre-marital sex are left alone while hookers and their johns are lashed in public 100 times.
Or ? select ?certain? hadith which say to stone married people and lash singles.
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Proposing an alternative understanding
Spirit of the laws regulating sexuality avoiding associated pain and trouble that might come as a result. Anything that goes beyond is a non-Quranic restriction on liberties, whatever our own moral view on them.
'afeef in Arabic can be translated not just as "chaste", but also as "clean" => Open to interpretation.
Zina is adultery, so it doesn't cover extra-marital sex. Many include fornication, but that's an addition. Extra-marital sex is not covered by the Quran; in support of this interpretation, see traditions which allowed nikah urfi/misya/mut'a, which if we don't split hairs, are equivalent to any normal non matrimonial relationship in the Western world today. Thus extra-marital sex is not forbidden.
Adultery Are consenting swingers adulterers? They probably don't consider themselves to be so, and they're not doing any harm to anyone. The law doesn't apply to them (remember, the spirit of the law, your reason is there to understand it). Same for pornstars.
The lashes and the four witnesses now lashes are serious business. Hence the need for four witnesses. Assuming all conditions are met for the punishment, the spirit of the law primes (again), and to understand it and apply it, we need the context lashes might have been appropriate then, they're not now, punishment of an equivalent value (e.g. prison, fine, whatever is deemed both equivalent and acceptable lest you want to turn any civilized person away from the way of God). Mind you, words themselves can be redefined, especially in a legal context. E.g. when the French civil code speaks of the king or chariot, it means the president or a car. The same can be done for lashes.
Surely sex between unmarried people is covered by the 'Guard your privates, except from your wives' injunction, hence unislamic. In the case of 'consenting swingers', if we define sex as a contract, by 'consenting' in this fashion they are making the contract void, hence divorcing, and falling back into first category, failing to guard their privates from people to whom they are not married.
In the case of lashes, I've never understood why people think punishment by locking criminals in a box for 5, 10 or 20 years is more humane than beating them. But in principle I agree with you, punishments can be taken as a guideline and adapted to fit the circumstances, that's what justice is about.
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salam liquiddharma. i have issues with what youre doing. the correct premise is allah makes no mistakes, knows what he is saying, and does not need a fallible human to improve on his word, because his word is perfect.
you claim "surely sex between unmarried people is covered by.." i looked at the verse fragment you provided "guard your privates, except from your wives" do you see the expression sex between unmarried people in guard your privates? the answer is no it is not in there. i see what you are trying to do. dont do it. this is called innovation. it is an evil way. you are not a person allah has appointed to makes changes, improvements, or additions. what you have done is to make an association of yourself and an addition to the quran.
do you have a personal need to condemn sex between unmarried people? if that is so, that is your personal opinion, and you have a right to that opinion. however, when you find no quran verse that says "sex between unmarried people is prohibited" you must have the intellectual honesty to admit there is no prohibition. to claim "guard your privates" means this is just plain dishonest.
i know your next move is going to be, well then why does allah say guard your privates except for before your wife. the reason you will persist is because you are thinking in english, using western notions of marriage and wife. those notions dont exist in the quran. this is where you are being thrown off track.
the words used in the quran are zawj and nikah. the term zawj means pair, it does not mean wife. the term nikah does not mean marriage, it is another type of relationship, the nearest definition is it is a conservatorship/marriage hybrid. let me propose to you the following assume a person has a sexual relationship with a zawj who is not their wife. is this permitted? i am sure it is permitted. however you will claim zawj is the same as wife in order to try and create a prohibition.
the issue of guard your privates, has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual relationships. it has to do with modesty. allah asks us to cover our privates. a person could be a nudist, not have sex, and violate this command.
please be very careful of any whispering in your ears. when allah does not say sex between unmarried persons is prohibited, it then becomes association and addition to make this claim. association and addition are condemned in the quran.
allah is the lawmaker.