only men are addresses
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My study of Quran continues. My intentions are to learn, not to raise gratuitous arguments. Take my questions in the right spirit.
QUESTION
I have noticed at various occassions that Quran is only addressing men. Following verse is an example. Is this observation of mine correct?
If yes, then why Quran is only address men? Is this the book for men only?
A man can marry believer woman or a woman who has received the scripture.
Shouldn't the same rule be applied to women as well?
Related question would be, if a woman marry a hindu man than would that be wrong according to Quran or not?
VERSE
?This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter?
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peace,
If one is sincere in learning, then you have nothing to fear in terms of your questions being taken the wrong way. D
This question has been discussed a few times before, try the search function.
I discussed it recently with sister Samia here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14616.15 -
peace,
If one is sincere in learning, then you have nothing to fear in terms of your questions being taken the wrong way.
This question has been discussed a few times before, try the search function.
I discussed it recently with sister Samia here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14616.15Thanks Waqas. I went through the 3 pages of the discussion you have referred above. The discussion is mostly about hijjab and does not answer my question above.
I have not read most of the Quran, so my question could be pre-mature. However an aswer would help.
- Why Quran is mostly addressing men.
I know Saima said on that forum that Quran is addressing a "generic men" that includes all men and women. But I thought Arabic is a very specific language. It is easy in Arabic to define your audience unlike English. "you people" "you males" "you female".
- Can a believer woman marry a person who is not amoung "people of book".
I am trying to do searches. Please point me to the approriate forum if know that this has been discussed earlier.
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Here are two more verses I came accross that assume men to be the only audience.
Is Quran only talking to men? Or is this an Arabic way of putting things that I am not aware of?
This topic must have been discussed earlier. Please diect me to the appropriate forum if that is the case.
If a man has touched a woman, he has to perform ablution. What about the woman, if she has touched a man? Please refer me to the appropriate verse if that case is covered. Thanks.
004.043
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la taqraboo alssalata waantum sukara hatta taAAlamoo ma taqooloona wala junuban illa AAabiree sabeelin hatta taghtasiloo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin aw jaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumu alnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedan tayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekum inna Allaha kana AAafuwwan ghafooran
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
PICKTHAL O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.
SHAKIR O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
KHALIFA O you who believe, do not observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) while intoxicated, so that you know what you are saying. Nor after sexual orgasm without bathing, unless you are on the road, traveling; if you are ill or traveling, or you had urinary or fecal-related excretion (such as gas), or contacted the women (sexually), and you cannot find water, you shall observe Tayammum (dry ablution) by touching clean dry soil, then wiping your faces and hands therewith. GOD is Pardoner, Forgiver.002.223
Nisaokum harthun lakum fa/too harthakum anna shi/tum waqaddimoo li-anfusikum waittaqoo Allaha waiAAlamoo annakum mulaqoohu wabashshiri almu/mineena
YUSUFALI Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.
PICKTHAL Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).
SHAKIR Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
KHALIFA Your women are the bearers of your seed. Thus, you may enjoy this privilege however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness. You shall observe GOD, and know that you will meet Him. Give good news to the believers. -
I know Saima said on that forum that Quran is addressing a "generic men" that includes all men and women. But I thought Arabic is a very specific language. It is easy in Arabic to define your audience unlike English. "you people" "you males" "you female".
Salaam explorer
Yes, Arabic is clear in addressing a singular, but not a group. Generic male is another meaning for a mixed group. In Arabic, if you want to speak about, or address, a group of mixed genders, with at least one male, you apply the masculine form, which is known as "Generic male", in opposition to "gendered male". The qur'aan uses the generic male, unless it is explicitly shown without any doubt that the verse concerns males only "the gendered male". Females are only specific, when they are addressed.
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Salaam explorer
Yes, Arabic is clear in addressing a singular, but not a group. Generic male is another meaning for a mixed group. In Arabic, if you want to speak about, or address, a group of mixed genders, with at least one male, you apply the masculine form, which is known as "Generic male", in opposition to "gendered male". The qur'aan uses the generic male, unless it is explicitly shown without any doubt that the verse concerns males only "the gendered male". Females are only specific, when they are addressed.
Saima, peace be with you as well.
I noted your point Quran refers to the mixed group as generic male.
In 443 says "Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo" = "those who believed".
A - Is Quran addressing mixed group here?
If the answer to A is yes. (QURAN IS ADDESSING MIXED GROUP)
then
B - Why quran is saying "when you have touched women" instead of "when you have been in touch with your spouse".
If the answer to A is no. (QURAN IS ADDESSING MALE GROUP)
then
C - Are these instructions for men only? Can women go to prayer in intoxicated state.
Seems to me that Quran is addressing men mostly. I need some serious help here. I am sure I am missing something here. This is not making sense to me on the face value.
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Seems to me that Quran is addressing men mostly. I need some serious help here. I am sure I am missing something here. This is not making sense to me on the face value.
When addressing a group, one has to be conscious of language nuance (in this case Classic Arabic) to present the information in the most gracious manner.
Similarly, in descent formal English speech, one would use terms such as ?make love? which is understood that it pertains to all.
Of course a woman touching another woman is considered lewd behavior per verse 415 and likewise ?two? men in 416; even so, they too are required to bathe before prayer.
Think of ?touch women? as a cordial way of speaking and words such as ?touch spouses/companions? are unclear leaving alternative sex interpretation as allowed.
Qur?an chooses words carefully to convey best meaning and intent.
Peace
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When addressing a group, one has to be conscious of language nuance (in this case Classic Arabic) to present the information in the most gracious manner.
Similarly, in descent formal English speech, one would use terms such as ?make love? which is understood that it pertains to all.
Of course a woman touching another woman is considered lewd behavior per verse 415 and likewise ?two? men in 416; even so, they too are required to bathe before prayer.
Think of ?touch women? as a cordial way of speaking and words such as ?touch spouses/companions? are unclear leaving alternative sex interpretation as allowed.
Qur?an chooses words carefully to convey best meaning and intent.
Peace
Nun, Thanks for your response.
PROBLEM 1
For the sake of discussion the author of the book could have used following three options.
1- If you have been in touch with women (actual one used)
2- If you have been in touch with spouses
3- If you men who have been in touch with women, and you women you have been in touch with men.According to you option 2 would have left alternative sex interpretation as allowed. I dont see how. If men-men and women-women couples are forbidden elsewhere in the Quran then using the word "spouse" would not open any door for creativity.
What about option 3 then? Quran has used this style at other occassions, I know.
PROBLEM 2
Lets say option 1 is the best one for whatever reason. Then the problem is that women does not require an abolution after touching men. We cannot just assume the same instructions for women if Quran is only talking to men. God did not run out of words.
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it's a bath, not an ablution for sexual intercourse... you also have to look at this logically, the why if you will...Because after sex both men and women are 'dirty'
Seems like the verses 443 and 556 have two parts. Part 1 is addressing both men and women while part 2 is just addressing the men.
Part 1 says that after a sexual orgasm both men and women should bathe unless they are travelling or ill.
Part 2 says that "if you are travelling or ill and you have touched a women then perform the dry ablution".
Do the verses address following situation?
"a women has touched a men while she is travelling; and no water is available".
According to the verses 443 and 556 she does not require a dry ablution. Does she?
You said
you also have to look at this logically, the why if you will...Because after sex both men and women are 'dirty'
I dont want to introduce my logic when extracting instruction out of Quran. Who am I to come up with my own instructions using my own logic? God's words has to be taken literally. God did not run out of words. What I mean is we cannot translate "touching a women" to "touching a women or men"... unless the word "women" is mistranslated already.
VERSES
O you who believe, do not observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) while intoxicated, so that you know what you are saying. Nor after sexual orgasm without bathing, unless you are on the road, traveling; if you are ill or traveling, or you had urinary or fecal-related excretion (such as gas), or contacted the women (sexually), and you cannot find water, you shall observe Tayammum (dry ablution) by touching clean dry soil, then wiping your faces and hands therewith. GOD is Pardoner, Forgiver.
O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
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peace explorer
O you who believe, do not observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) while intoxicated, so that you know what you are saying. Nor after sexual orgasm without bathing, unless you are on the road, traveling; if you are ill or traveling, or you had urinary or fecal-related excretion (such as gas), or contacted/lamastumu the women (sexually), and you cannot find water, you shall observe Tayammum (dry ablution) by touching clean dry soil, then wiping your faces and hands therewith. GOD is Pardoner, Forgiver.
since it mentions sexually intercourse before "touching/lamastumu women" it may not be about physically "touching" women but about masterbating, the psychology and method of female masterbation is much differnet than mens. and women can be made an exception because they already have pms
56 "or have just satisfied a want of nature, or have contacted/lamastumu with a woman" notice how touching women is after want of nature, possibly a relation
here is a article about it
The Psychology of Female Masturbation
Tendencies of sexual arousal through masturbation are perhaps better developed in women than men. Unlike men, women can be aroused by intellectual stimuli like music or painting. Masturbation in women is a deeper psychological process than in men. Some women can masturbate without even touching their genitals. This is done by crossing legs tightly. This causes pressure in the theigh, which is enough for a woman to get their genitals stimulated. Masturbation in such a manner can lead to orgasm. This enables women to masturbate in public, without anyone being the wiser.
Women during masturbation produce more vaginal fluids than they do during normal sexual intercourse. There are claims by women that they peek better when masturbating. Te reason behind this is that women are much freer when they are masturbating. Their is no pressure to please their partners. Also they can stimulate themselves in much a better way than their partners can, as they know their bodies the best. Hence, the incidences of masturbation are found even in women who have married and have a healthy sex life.
it is believed that men think more about have sex so the men prior to doing salat should clear their mind of it because it affects men more than women. See that most sexual harrassment is done by men and most sex crimes are done by men, on average of course.
as for women marrying non-muslims Shiekh Hassan Al-Turabi from Sudan says that women can marry non-muslims according to 55
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one more thing
i think 2223 is directed to men saying not to think of your wives as a sex object, they should be respected, there would be no purpose to also direct this to women too2223Your women are the bearers of your seed. Thus, you may enjoy this privilege however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness. You shall observe GOD, and know that you will meet Him. Give good news to the believers.
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Nun, Thanks for your response.
PROBLEM 1
For the sake of discussion the author of the book could have used following three options.
1- If you have been in touch with women (actual one used)
2- If you have been in touch with spouses
3- If you men who have been in touch with women, and you women you have been in touch with men.PROBLEM 2
Lets say option 1 is the best one for whatever reason. Then the problem is that women does not require an abolution after touching men. We cannot just assume the same instructions for women if Quran is only talking to men. God did not run out of words.
Salaam Explorer
You suggest a sociolinguistic rule, whereas the quraan has its own sociolinguistic rules, which is when an address is for the generic male, the feminine it entails is a generic feminine. In other words, the feminie is only totally specific if it is the addressee.
And yes, God did not run out of words, but He knows many people will run away from a double-size book full of repetition. As relatively small as it is, yet people still don't have time to read it..How if it becomes doubled in size with no new material but repetition?
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one more thing
i think 2223 is directed to men saying not to think of your wives as a sex object, they should be respected, there would be no purpose to also direct this to women too2223Your women are the bearers of your seed. Thus, you may enjoy this privilege however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness. You shall observe GOD, and know that you will meet Him. Give good news to the believers.
Thanks for you time. Your point makes sense for this verse.
I still contemplating on previous post.
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You suggest a sociolinguistic rule, whereas the quraan has its own sociolinguistic rules, which is when an address is for the generic male, the feminine it entails is a generic feminine. In other words, the feminie is only totally specific if it is the addressee.
Saima, peace be with you as well.
I am trying to understand your response.
Do you mean to say that according to Quranic sociolinguistic rules, following is true?
"if you touch women ..." means "if you touch spouses ..."
Please explain. Your reply seems interesting but I am unable to comprehend it completely. Thanks.
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Saima, peace be with you as well.
I am trying to understand your response.
Do you mean to say that according to Quranic sociolinguistic rules, following is true?
"if you touch women ..." means "if you touch spouses ..."
Please explain. Your reply seems interesting but I am unable to comprehend it completely. Thanks.
Salaam Explorer
You may just say it means "the opposite sex".
If the addresse is generic male and it entails a generic female, then when you change the addressee to the feminine, it entails a masculine (opposite genders). -
explorer
your objections are very pertinent, and i guess there is more to it than what is being understood, everone's explanation is less than perfect.
The way you have gone about tackling this issue, i guess you are the one who has some chance to solve this , so go ahead and brain storm , me too, very interested in improving upon this, and inshall ah we will shall thrash this out.
till now it looks as if , "if the women are touched", (only, not made love to) then probably they do not become eligible for that clause.
siki
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one reason i can think of is ,
The use of word women was appropriate, because , the women who are touched sexually, are not always spouses , parteners etc.
However, Nun's explanation of "Lamastum un nissa" , as a phrase, conveying a certain meaning, does carry some merit.
siki
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Salaam Explorer
You may just say it means "the opposite sex".
If the addresse is generic male and it entails a generic female, then when you change the addressee to the feminine, it entails a masculine (opposite genders).Saima, peace be with you.
1- Could you please provide examples from Quran or other Arabic text to support your argument.
2- Are you an Arab? Is this a normal usage in Arabic. -
I am reading the word to word translation of the two verses again and again. It is very clear that only men are addressed (if nissa = women). I have tried looking at it from every angle and it is not making sense to me.
http//www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local/pages.pl?/quran&img=322
http//www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local/pages.pl?/quran&img=408There has to be some explanation to this. Why dry ablution instructions are only addressed to men.
Any one?
