only men are addresses
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peace
maybe this can help
maybe women are mentioned here and since they have courses and men do not, on a regular basis they have to deal with that area while usually men dont, since it says here for women to keep pure and not men, 443 is now telling men how to keep "pure"
2222 AND THEY will ask thee about courses. Say "It is a vulnerable condition. Keep, therefore, aloof from women during their monthly courses, and do not draw near unto them until they are cleansed; and when they are cleansed, go in unto them as God has bidden you to do." Verily, God loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and He loves those who keep themselves pure.
so the verses your having a problem with tell men to when they excrete they have to, at least spirtually/dry, cleanse themselves too
also i dont like that translation
but hopefully you can get the point of what im trying to say -
Peace explorer,
al-Ahzab (The Clans, The Coalition, The Combined Forces, The Allies) 3349
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/33/49/Literal You, you those who believed, if you married the believers (F) then you divorced/freed them (F) from before that you touch them (F), so (there is) no term/counting (no waiting period) you count it, so give them alimony, and divorce/release them (F) beautifully divorce/release.
al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2187
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/2/187/LiteralIt) became/is permitted/allowed to you (the) night of the fasting the obscenity/ indecency (intercourse), to your women (wives), they are (F) a cover/wives to you and you are a cover/husbands tothem (F), God knew that you were betraying/being unfaithful (to) yourselves, so He forgave on you, and He forgave/pardoned on you, so now touch their (F) outer skin , and desire (seek) what God has written/dictated for you, and eat and drink until the thread the white appears from the thread the black from the dawn , then complete the fasting to the night and do not touch their outer skin (while) you are devoting in the mosques/places of worshipping God. Those are God's limits/orders , so do not approach/near it, like that God clarifies His verses/evidences to the people, maybe they fear and obey (God).
Therefore, within context, the phrase ?touching women? is proxy for ?making love? stipulating a female participant.
As to why the phrase ?touch spouse/companion? would not be used; as siki mentioned, it nulls alternatives (e.g. pre/extra-marital sex, etc.) and even though forbidden, the rite should still be performed.
Hope that makes sense.
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O You people {group is addressed and a group comprises of men and women} who claim to have believed! Do not go for prayers when you are in a disturbed/foggy state of mind till such time you know what you are saying;
And do not go for prayers when you are in a state after intercourse {this is association of a man and woman, both included} till such time you people have taken bath;
is a state of mind which disturbs faculty of remaining mindful of one?s utterances.
is not mere sex which is a wide and vague term, sex includes foreplay {or just play}, kissing, touching etc. This word has been defined by Quran as exclusively referring to physical intercourse, entrance of male genitalia into the female genitalia. Both man who entered and the woman who got entered are .
And if you people are suffering from some disease or in journey or any one has come from call of nature or you men have penetrated genitalia into women;
does not mean sex; it means entering the genitalia into women?s genitalia. And this act is never described conversely in any language of the world, except Madonna?s dirty dialogue in a movie.
The instruction is very simple and nakedly described so that none could interpret it otherwise or get confused.
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Saima, peace be with you.
1- Could you please provide examples from Quran or other Arabic text to support your argument.
2- Are you an Arab? Is this a normal usage in Arabic.Salaam explorer
1- Arabic language does not support this trait of sociolinguistics. In Arabic you can't find this rule of sociolinguistics. I consider it specific to the qur'aan.
Nor would you be able to write, in Arabic, a text like this (6610-12) " God sets an example fr those who disbelieve (allatheen kafaruu plural masculine) the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut....." ... "and God set forth an example for those who believe (masculine plural allatheena aamanuu) the wife of pharaoh...." .."and Maryam the daughter of Imraan..." without giving an example from each gender at least. Here we have two examples of each category, and both examples are women. This is a strong reminder that whenever the qur'aan speaks of believers or unbelievers, or for such of any masculine plural, we should take it as generic masculine and consider that it contains women equally (unless explicitely proven otherwise).
Yes, I am an Arab.
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Peace Mazhar
A good effort , however i tend to differ with two of your explanations.
- junabba, is not intercourse , but a state after intercourse, or after discharge of semen in or on a woman , or an independent discharge of semen for a man through some means (may be masterbation) which makes bathing necessary for both, (and in the last situation only for man). And if they do not take a bath, they remain in a state of junabba.
The ayat says, that if a believer is in a state of junaba, he/she is forbidden to salat, till the time they take a bath, and in this case , if they do not find water to take a bath , they should not salat , exactly like "sukkara" situation.
- lamastamum un nissa , is not intercourse, or penetration of male sexual organ into a female sexual organ.
What you are saying, is precisely described in 4-23 by the word "Dakhaltum," or entry, when God wanted to describe the exact parameter for making a step daughter Haram for ever, The ayat says!
If you have entered a women (Dakhaltum) then, touching her daughter is incest, and hence Haram for ever, but if you have not penetrated the mother yet , and you have a change of mind , you can still alter your plans and go for the daughter, and thus makes the daughter Hallal and non incestous before sexual penetration of her mother.
lamatamum un nissa is sexual touchings which does not culminate into a sexual entry or discharge of semen into or on a woman.
In above case ablution (only) is necessary before praying, and this condition is rated along journeying , sickness or call of nature, which are less than clean conditions, and necessitate an ablution with water, and if one does not find water , still some sort of cleansing with dry soil is advised.So wadu is,
Every time before salat, if one finds water.
No water, but those 4 conditions are not there , one can perform salat without ablution
if one has gone through one of those 4 conditions , and finds no water , "tayyamam" with clean dry soil is necessary before salat.
In a state of junaba , bath is necessary, and if one can't take a bath due to any reason then , NO SALAT.
Above are the results of my detailed study on the relevent verses some while ago.
siki
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- junabba, is not intercourse , but a state after intercourse{Siki}
Exactly same thing was said in the translation of Ayah
And do not go for prayers when you are in a state after intercourse {Mazhar}
- lamastamum un nissa , is not intercourse, or penetration of male sexual organ into a female sexual organ.
What you are saying, is precisely described in 4-23 by the word "Dakhaltum," or entry, when God wanted to describe the exact parameter for making a step daughter Haram for ever, The ayat says!
If you have entered a women (Dakhaltum) then her daughter is Haram for ever, but if you have not penetrated the mother yet , and you have a change of mind , you can still alter your plans and go for the daughter, and thus makes the daughter Hallal and non incestous before penetraion of a woman.
lamatamum un nissa is sexual touchings which does not culminate into a sexual entry or discharge of semen into or on a woman.{Siki}
?lamastamum un nissa? has only one meaning and that is Dakhaltum. If this act had not been done with a wife then her daughter from earlier husband is permissible for marriage. And this can happen only if that woman with whom man had not done that act had been divorced. It means her mother was divorced without ?Dakhool?. What is ?Dakhool?? It is ?lamastamum?. Please read 2236.
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Mazhar, Siki
The same word "lamasa" has been used at two other places as well with the meaning of "touch" 67, 728
006.007
KHALIFA Even if we sent down to them a physical book, written on paper, and they touched it with their hands, those who disbelieved would have said, "This is no more than clever magic."072.008
KHALIFA " `We touched the heaven and found it filled with formidable guards and projectiles."iltamasa" has been used in 5713 with the meaning of "seek".
5713
KHALIFA On that day, the hypocrite men and women will say to those who believed, "Please allow us to absorb some of your light." It will be said, "Go back behind you, and seek light." A barrier will be set up between them, whose gate separates mercy on the inner side, from retribution on the outer side.Having said that shouldn't this word then mean "touching" in verses 443 and 56 as well.
If both junabba and lamasa are referring to "intercourse" then
These two verses have already addressed the intercourse with the word junabba, why would the Quran refer to the same thing again later in the verse with a different word "lamasa"?
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Mazhar, Siki
The same word "lamasa" has been used at two other places as well with the meaning of "touch" 67, 728
Salaam Explorer
The verb "touch LaMaSa " in these two verses is not the same as the verb "LaaMaSa " in "laamastum alnisaa"; the former 2 being of pattern I, whereas the latter is form III, all have the same root LMS (the double aa is an alif or long vowel; the single a is a short vowel).
If a form I of a verb is used, form III derived from it may give a meaning of "mutual" action of form I. Example kataba to write; kaataba to sign an agreement with someone (both are writing); qatala to kill; qaatala to fight (againt someone). Hence, lamasa to touch; laamasa maybe to move together in touching each other...usually used for sexual intercourse, but could be used for any intimate touching.
Also form III whether derived from non used /existing verbs or not, usually have the notion of actions of longer duration saafara travel (form I, safar, is not used); Taalaba demand (Talaba request); haajara immigrate (hajara desert)...Again laamasa could be touching of a longer duration.
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Salaam Explorer
The verb "touch LaMaSa " in these two verses is not the same as the verb "LaaMaSa " in "laamastum alnisaa"; the former 2 being of pattern I, whereas the latter is form III, all have the same root LMS (the double aa is an alif or long vowel; the single a is a short vowel).
If a form I of a verb is used, form III derived from it may give a meaning of "mutual" action of form I. Example kataba to write; kaataba to sign an agreement with someone (both are writing); qatala to kill; qaatala to fight (againt someone). Hence, lamasa to touch; laamasa maybe to move together in touching each other...usually used for sexual intercourse, but could be used for any intimate touching.
Also form III whether derived from non used /existing verbs or not, usually have the notion of actions of longer duration saafara travel (form I, safar, is not used); Taalaba demand (Talaba request); haajara immigrate (hajara desert)...Again laamasa could be touching of a longer duration.
Samia, peace be with you as well
Thanks for your detailed reply. It was definitely very helpful for me in understanding how different forms work.
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In a state of junaba , bath is necessary, and if one can't take a bath due to any reason then , NO SALAT.
http//www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local/pages.pl?/quran&img=321
.. and - not - unclean (junabba) -except - passing through -way until - you wash ...
Doesn't this mean
- Dont say prayer if you are unclean (junanna)
- until you wash (bathe)
- except you passing through way (journey).
You said "no salat if you are under junabba". How would you explain "EXCEPT PASSING THROUGH WAY" then?
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http//www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local/pages.pl?/quran&img=321
.. and - not - unclean (junabba) -except - passing through -way until - you wash ...
Doesn't this mean
- Dont say prayer if you are unclean (junanna)
- until you wash (bathe)
- except you passing through way (journey).
You said "no salat if you are under junabba". How would you explain "EXCEPT PASSING THROUGH WAY" then?
explorer!
ya , you are right, Abri sabeelin (traveller) has been granted a concession. i knew that , but it slipped my mind , thanks.
Exactly same thing was said in the translation of Ayah
Negative Mazhar, what i am trying to point out , is that one can be in a state of junabba without Dakhool. please see the reasons in my previous post.
lamastamum un nissa has only one meaning and that is Dakhaltum. If this act had not been done with a wife then her daughter from earlier husband is permissible for marriage. And this can happen only if that woman with whom man had not done that act had been divorced. It means her mother was divorced without Dakhool. What is Dakhool? It is lamastamum. Please read 2236.
Again negative, lamstamum un nissa does not mean dakhool at all. Previously i thought that dakhool is a sub set of lamastmum, but NO, it is not , it means sexual touchings,( only ) which do not culminate into dakhool. The reason has already been explained by explorer above.
In the above commandment there is no marriage or divorce, rather it is a decree for incest. Even if you dint marry a women but you have entered her , every/any kind of sexual advaces/ approach for her daughter , weather through marriage, or through fornication, is termed as incestuous, and is strictly prohibited.
siki
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Explorer!
Now, to answer your query, let us first consider,
there are three states one can be in, before salat according to Quran.
clean.
dirty
junaaba.
clean requires wadu every time, preferably, but if one is unable to find water , one can still pray.
Dirty means , those 4 conditions mentioned in quran, this again requires ablution but if one does not find water, one has to carry out some kind of cleansing with dry soil.
Junaabaa, requires bathing, and if due to any reason one is unable to , then one should not salat . later on a concession was added in 4-43 for "abri sabeelin" that he can pray without bath, but logic requires that in this case he must carry out ablution and if no water, then tayammam.
Now your question, i think by lamastamum un nissa, the men are being pushed into the second(dirty)stage , where as the women are not.
They probably remain in state 1, that is why, the commandment is worded such a way, otherwise , he could have used an alternative word and avoided this confusion. God does not run out of words, i agree with you on this.
Above explanation is not a verdict , but probably clicks my mind better than the rest of the explanations.
Peace
siki
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Salaam
Good going explorer, in the absence of a proper explanation for the verse being addressed also to women lets take the Quran literally and the fact that dry ablution only applies to men.
I have few issues with the verses 443 and 56
?wa la_ junuban illa_'a_biri sabilin 443
Is not ?and not distant except instructing the way? the literal translation for the part of the verse above using cross reference. I noticed the definitions used so far for ?junuban? and ?Aabiri? has no support with cross reference with the Quran.
Also shouldn?t the part of the verse ?wa la junuban...? (443), should be connected to ?hatta_ ta'lamu_ ma_ taqu_lu_na/ until ye can understand? and not to ?la_ takrabus sala_ta / approach not prayers ?. The ?wa la /and not" in ? wa la junuban..? will not be appropriate with the negative ?not approach? in the start of the verse.
I may be wrong with the issues I have raised so please be good enough to give explanations to understand the above verses properly.
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Warner
How are you brother? Good to have you around on this thread
Good going explorer, in the absence of a proper explanation for the verse being addressed also to women lets take the Quran literally and the fact that dry ablution only applies to men.
You have a point there, so i guess my understanding in the above post is faulty.
so , under the present situation , the best bet is , Lamastamum ul nissa , should be considered a phrase , signifying smooching and is valid for both.
I have few issues with the verses 443 and 56
wa la_ junuban illa_'a_biri sabilin 443
Is not and not distant except instructing the way the literal translation for the part of the verse above using cross reference. I noticed the definitions used so far for junuban and Aabiri has no support with cross reference with the Quran.
When i was trying to dig deep in to these two words, i faced the same problem, i could not verify them from quran , but then when i checked lane, i found the commonly understood meanings as one of the options. As they fit in the context of the verse , so i had no option , but to take them, where as, all other listed meanings(more than 40 odd) were relatively more inappropriate.
However i am less than fully satisfied with these two words.
Junnabbaan, is described as a condition one is in ,after sex , making bathing a necessity.
Abri sabeelin, abri and sabeel are two different words and convey different meanings separately , but when put together , is a phrase used for A traveller, or journeying. The individual meanings of these two words are less than appropriate in the context of this verse.
Travelling makes you dirty, so is illness , going to toilet and God considers smooching makes a human body less than clean.
Abri sabeelin was not in the original ayah regarding wadu,5-6 but this exception was probably included later in 4-43 , and the travellers, if were in junabba were granted relief from Ghusaal owing to the difficulty of finding a place ,or abundant water for such a purpose.
And i guess , abri sabeelin , phrase was used instead of Saffrin, to reduce the confusion and clarify difference between the two separate issues.(bath and tayamam)
Salaam
Also shoulthe the part of the verse wa la junuban... (443), should be connected to hatta_ ta'lamu_ ma_ taqu_lu_na/ until ye can understand and not to la_ takrabus sala_ta / approach not prayers . The wa la /and not" in wa la junuban.. will not be appropriate with the negative not approach in the start of the verse.
I may be wrong with the issues I have raised so please be good enough to give explanations to understand the above verses properly.
I am sorry i cant understand you here, can you elaborate/explain , what you mean to convey?
peace
siki
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Dear Brother Siki
I am well, Thanks for the greeting. How are you and your family?
Thanks for the explanation but I still have my doubts since we are relying solely on lexicons and not on the Quran reference. I can feel from your answer even you are not certain with the traditional meaning. I may be wrong but I think we must analyze the verse more. I will use the traditional translation for ease.
Let me explain my confusion more clearly.
O ye who believe! APPROACH NOT prayers
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with a mind befogged until ye can understand all that ye say
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AND NOR in a state of ceremonial impurity except when traveling on the road until after washing your whole body
Please note the bold ?approach not? and ?and nor?. The verse should say ?approach not salat when you are junuban? and NOT ?approach not salat when you are not junuban? . The 2 negatives convey the latter meaning.
443 ?..And if ye are ill or on a journey or one of you cometh from offices of nature or ye have been in contact with women and ye find no water then take for yourselves clean sand or earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
Don?t you think this part of the verse is connected to "washing" with the wa/and in ?wa in kuntum marda/ And if ye are ill?
What is the difference between Taghtasilu ( 443) and Fa?ghsilu_ (56) ?
Siki And i guess , abri sabeelin , phrase was used instead of Saffrin, to reduce the confusion and clarify difference between the two separate issues.(bath and tayamam)
I still do not understand the reason for the use of 2 different words for travel or journeying in the verse. Can you explain.
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Peace all,
Interesting discussion going on !
In my understanding, "laamastum" is ANY SEXUAL TOUCHING in the context of "laamastumun-nisaa", which includes "dakhal"/sexual intercourse, and may or may not result in "junuban"/seminal or vaginal discharge. Thus "dakhal" will be a subset of "laamastum".
"Junuban" on the other hand could be both after sexual intercourse or after self-stimulation.
Hence, following possibilities can result
- Sexual intercourse/"dakhal" (included in "laamastum", OR any sexual touching/"laamastum" OR self-stimulation AND NON-TRAVELER, resulting in seminal/vaginal discharge ---> "junuban" ---> bath.
- Sexual intercourse/"dakhal" (included in "laamastum", OR any sexual touching/"laamastum" OR self-stimulation AND TRAVELER, resulting in seminal/vaginal discharge ---> "junuban" ---> bath not necessary, instead can do ablution if water available, or if no water, then "tayammam".
- Sexual intercourse/"dakhal" without discharge (traveler and non-traveler) ---> "laamastum" ---> ablution, or if no water, then "tayammam".
- ANY sexual touch/"laamastum" with other person without discharge (traveler and non-traveler) ---> "laamastum" ---> ablution, or if no water, then "tayammam".
All of the above include both male and female. For example, "junuban"/seminal discharge for male, and "junuban"/vaginal discharge for female.
Thus, "junuban" may or may not result from sexual intercourse, so may or may not be a subset of "laamastum". However, "dakhal" is always a subset of "laamastum" (how is "dakhal" possible without touching/"laamasa" ?).
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All of the above include both male and female. For example, "junuban"/seminal discharge for male, and "junuban"/vaginal discharge for female.
I can see how junuban is for both males and femals. On what grounds are you saying "laamastum" is both as well? Are you of one mind with Samia on this?
"When you touch (lamasa) your women".
Quran has addressed men only.
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Salaam Tanveer
Good to have you here in this discussion. Hope everything is well with you brother.
I guess laamastum is intense touching with or without sex.(like feeling someone up) So accidental and casual touching without intenstion or leading to sex is not included. Also I think laamastum
applies even if the hands are not involved such as rubbing against or hugging someone. Excuse me for being discriptive. -
Peace all,
Interesting discussion going on !
In my understanding, "laamastum" is ANY SEXUAL TOUCHING in the context of "laamastumun-nisaa", which includes "dakhal"/sexual intercourse, and may or may not result in "junuban"/seminal or vaginal discharge. Thus "dakhal" will be a subset of "laamastum".
"Junuban" on the other hand could be both after sexual intercourse or after self-stimulation.
Hence, following possibilities can result
- Sexual intercourse/"dakhal" (included in "laamastum", OR any sexual touching/"laamastum" OR self-stimulation AND NON-TRAVELER, resulting in seminal/vaginal discharge ---> "junuban" ---> bath.
- Sexual intercourse/"dakhal" (included in "laamastum", OR any sexual touching/"laamastum" OR self-stimulation AND TRAVELER, resulting in seminal/vaginal discharge ---> "junuban" ---> bath not necessary, instead can do ablution if water available, or if no water, then "tayammam".
- Sexual intercourse/"dakhal" without discharge (traveler and non-traveler) ---> "laamastum" ---> ablution, or if no water, then "tayammam".
- ANY sexual touch/"laamastum" with other person without discharge (traveler and non-traveler) ---> "laamastum" ---> ablution, or if no water, then "tayammam".
All of the above include both male and female. For example, "junuban"/seminal discharge for male, and "junuban"/vaginal discharge for female.
Thus, "junuban" may or may not result from sexual intercourse, so may or may not be a subset of "laamastum". However, "dakhal" is always a subset of "laamastum" (how is "dakhal" possible without touching/"laamasa" ?).
I stand corrected , Dakhal is a sub set of lamastamum un nissa.
I agree with you here, mostly except the red part. I think dakhal even without discharge should result in junabbaan, Because there is no fix parameter for the women to evaluate a fluid discharge , and even men have some pre ejaculation discharges which can not be evaluated
My opinion is that dakhal should be the line for junabban, and if no dakhal then men's ejaculation should be the parameter for men, and if in any way, the secretion touches the women body , should also turn her in junabaa state.
siki
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Dear Siki,
You are taking things to the finest "tuning". "Dakhaltum" quite expressely states things yet there is no "porno" in it. While talking about sex matters, Quran takes care of respect for the women yet states the fact quite boldly. About wives it is said that husabnd find "sakan" from them which is a fact all the time but a wife may not necessarily get "sakan" everytime from her husband and yet she never complains to her husband. Let some things remain covered under the veil since people understand and know them.